amitymamaThe Attachment Parenting Community

Ariadne Umbrell · 02-18-2006, 03:11 AM

Thinking, so we are all as careful as we can be, in whatever circumstances we are in. Do you share your food/ clothes/philosophy/ stuff/ mercy?

Thinking about the line of food doesn't make you clean- sharing cleans it. Something like that.

Me- it depends. I'm not usually sure if the food would be welcome. It's usually something like lentil soup from scratch. It's really good, I think. The kids like it, their friends like it, their parents= it's iffy.

What about you? I know we are all very passionate about this.

ari

dreamseeds · 02-18-2006, 01:50 PM

Well it totally makes sense, Ari.

For us, we don't have a lot of people over so we tend to only share food a few times a year. ANd often it is with open minded earth friendly folks.

If we take a meal to church that is somewhat different, it usually does not get eaten.
When with family, they tend to dominate so we jsut go with the flow since that is the way they show their love for us is buying/preparing food.

We do however, try to bring snacks such as dried mango slices, dates, papaya spears, pineapple rings, whole grain crakers, etc... when we are traveling (like for Rachies bb team where we are on the road an awful lot).

I am sure it gets noticed. At last nights game on of the coaches came up and asked about some ingredients in her dd drink so people do notice we dont fill up on junk as much as others, I guess.

As far as clothes, I don't usually share too much on my personal preferences. Actually sometimes I am still trying to figure that out.
Philosophy comes out when those of us are talking aobut deep issues, but I dont usually bring up my ideas unless it feels safe. I struggle with disagreements and debates and really tend to be so centristic on most issues that I am horrible at debating anyway.

Mercy...do you mean how do you take action against injustice ? I only share in a safe environment or if somebody gets under my skin on an issue that I whole heartedly feel is wrong.

Rach · 02-18-2006, 02:41 PM

I have trouble with this in that I am sometimes TOO willing to share my beliefs and the reasons behind them, and then turn around and do the exact opposite thing, as in say nothing as my aunt feeds my kids koolaid and marshmallows. It makes me feel like I have a dual personality.

Baby crying...

Ariadne Umbrell · 02-19-2006, 02:01 AM

I'm not sure what I 'm asking ,exactly, either. You know how you go to a playgroup, or a study, or to work, and there's a discussion started, and it goes all over the place? Well, for me, right now, Amity's is that place. And I like you all a great deal, and I respect you, and I'm curious. How's that?

And, let's see, I find myself learning so much here from all of you, and wanting to emulate so much, not just of what you do, but how you approach things, and how you think about things. Does that make sense?

In real life, right now, for whatever reason, I'm opening my mouth more, and talking more. And really, it's getting a bit strange, not being so opaque. I don't have the luxury of saying, "I'm so misunderstood"- b/c I'm not, I'm probably more transparent than I've ever been in my life.

Some of it comes from here, come to think of it- I'm not a complete space alien, or - something odd and awkward. I'm part of this discussion here. I don't know how I come off here, but I am here. You have no idea what a relief this place is, to be ideas and words- to knit and sew, and question, and live mindfully, and and and and

Also, let's see, I read an article in ?Utne? where this woman was really proud of being in a CSA, therefore she didn't feel the need to donate to a local food bank- she thought her higher food bill helped the farmers, and the environment, and the food bank was someone else's problem. Her accountant was the one asking about why there weren't any charitable donations.

And, let's see, I'm not sure we donate to anyone who actually needs it, in any systematic way. It sounds stupid, but this is the first year I've given anything to beggars by the side of the road. I did it b/c a friend of mine gave five dollars to a homeless pregnant beggar, and she even said, " oh, she looks like she needs some medicine." And that moment of compassion on her part--I don't know, it's as if they became "visible human beings," and giving became possible. Does that make sense?

And, a neighbor was sick, so I made lentil soup from scratch, just for her, and she's still talking about the strange food I make. Okay, it was the most basic lentil soup imaginable- basic onion, carrot and celery, with bay leaf, and italian seasoning, not indian, not sinhalese, not with sourkraut- just normal. they serve it at carraba's, for crying out loud. I'm more cautious now. I'd like to think I'm a good cook, and that I care for my family, and am kind to my neighbors.

And, a tech at work was talking about taking out a loan until payday to get groceries, and I set aside a jar of beans and a jar of rice, and a bottle of curry powder, but I didn't bring it to her. I didn't know if she could even cook it, or if she would want to.

Or clothes- Time is making fun of a third world president who keeps wearing this one sweater- and I haven't written saying " Quit picking on his sweater! What if that's the only one he has? Is he required to wear a suit?" I think it's great that he's wearing a sweater made in his own country. I'd like to see GWB wearing hecho in estado unidos clothes.

And, yeah, sugary snacks at soccer games, sugary drinks at soccer games- I'm not going to kick the parents, it's a big stretch for all of us, financially, to participate at all. Water in bottles costs more than pre- packaged drinks. Strange, eh?

so, just sort of a , how do you engage in the world?

ari

dreamseeds · 02-19-2006, 12:12 PM

Well if you are ready for some random madness...I 'll bite

I used to think I was messed up somewhere becuase social gatherings absolutely exhaust me. For example, there is an AP group that gathers together ALOT. Their concepts are good, they seems to really dig on each other, but when I discovered they will hang out together all day several times a week and that they rotate houses, I was like, I CANT DO THAT!!!

Well the past few months I have discovered I am an introvert (and some other personality traits) which is why things like that overwhelm me. And that is ok.
I woudl go to an Amity mama gathering or an herb conference without hesistation, but as an ongoing ritual, no way! Too much social for me to be comfortable.
So, that probably explains why I keep my friendship circles fairly small and intimate. So most of the folks I am around are like minded in some way or other.

I do like social, but not daily, nor huge groups consistantly. I actually get headaches or feel sick to my stomach in large people sitautions.

There is some point to this I swear....

I have also discovered I am politically centrist. I really see many sides as being right and could not determime what I am politically until I found out there is a centrist ideal. That helps me define myself, but I really dont like to debate many political issues because I really see so many peoples viewpoints as right.

As far as community service, I do give to the food pantry and if I have some money, I dont mind giving it to the occasional beggar I see on the street.
I give to northwest medical teams and mercy corps.
Doing the actual work myself tho, I dont do much but maybe minor fundraising here.

There is a judgemental part inside me...but I try to tame that wild beast as much as I can becuase about 20 years ago I got into a rather elitist group of church group that really felt they are the "ones" God loves the most, blah blah blah. We drove Cadillacs, wore expensive designer clothing, our sons wore ties when we went to town adn our daughters wore expensive clothing...even to the grocery store.
When I was finally free from that group I was part of for 8 years, I was still so very judgemental. It has taken many years to become free of that.

Then there are food issues....

Soy is good...Soy is bad.

Meat is good...meat is bad.

Can't get organic so should I starve myself? and on and on.

With the first 2, there are so many studies that conflict. It is so hard to determine the very truth!
Me personally...I eat meat. I follow alot of Weston Prices notations from tribal peoples which is traditional foods. This includes meats, fats, eggs, etc...

But I also try to add some soy foods into my diet becuase I feel when God created the earth we were all vegetarians (my spirituality beliefs tie in here) so I am not fully convinced that meat is the way.
However my friend Joy, with her abundance of knowledge probably has information that shows meat eating is the way..she is an evolutionist I am pretty sure.

Homeschool vs Public school

Another issue I cannot always pinpoint. My heart says homeschooling is the best....but my mental model is our forefathers and my beleifs that say the family and those social settings the family chooses to engage in are the best way to teach our children to follow through on our values and keep simple life close to heart.
However, with our technological world advancing so rapidly, do my children NEED the training of school. Am I trapping the resources they need to expand in this world we live in by keeping them home with ME as their teacher?
Yes, I can teach them how to harvest herbs for medicine and cook some kick ass food, but can I teach them how to update systems, invent or do other things that our world finds value in.
But since my heart says teach them simplicity, that is what I mostly do.
But I will be crushed if they struggle as adults becuase they did not get some education that I dont teach very well (science for sure)

So, I dont really 100% defend alot of things, even tho I personally follow my deepest feelings.

There are some things I feel are absolutes and as long as my heart and heaed are united on it, YOU BET! I defend or discuss. My dh thinks I would make an excellent attorney, lol. But those are absolutes. Such as the Iraq war. I wholeheartedly felt the entire sitation was wrong and had no problem talking about it, physically protesting, etc..
But when I saw some mama's here that had military dh's that were really tore up over the things I was saying aobut it, I in turn felt hurt for THEM.
I quit talking about it here for awhile and continued to discuss about my social realms. But becuase some people truly beleived that this was the way to begin taming the axis of evil and terrorism, how could you convince them?

AS far as your neighbor, they msut not have had food like that.
My dh loves food. His mother is Norwegian and cooks very bland food although she is a very good cook.
I use alot of garlic, onion, basil, well most any spice I can. When my inlaws come over they are rarely impressed even tho my dh is practically worshipping the ground I walk on over the meal. I think it is becuase they are only use to certain things and have to be open for anything different.

Blah blah blah...I am rambling and probably shared way to much of myself. I hope I dont regret this later.
I say Ari, do what you truly feel is best.

I dont know if you saw the post I had about the homeless guy dh and I saw a few years back. He stated he was hungry. Dh and I bought him some eggrolls from the Chinese restaurant and some banana's and whatever else we thought he could easily take in his backpack.
When we gave it to the guy he was totally offended and said "I need meat. I need to go to Subway". This guy was prolly in his 20's, dreads, etc....
It did not stop me from helping people after that, but it sure freaked me out that I upset him by giving him banana's and eggrolls.

~*~Seeking*Simplicity~*~ · 02-19-2006, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by organicmama

I dont know if you saw the post I had about the homeless guy dh and I saw a few years back. He stated he was hungry. Dh and I bought him some eggrolls from the Chinese restaurant and some banana's and whatever else we thought he could easily take in his backpack.
When we gave it to the guy he was totally offended and said "I need meat. I need to go to Subway". This guy was prolly in his 20's, dreads, etc....
It did not stop me from helping people after that, but it sure freaked me out that I upset him by giving him banana's and eggrolls.

hmmm... sounds to me like he wasn't really all that hungry! We have had homesless people take our food out of the garbage and eat our leftovers! THAT is hunger. I dont give to people asking on the street anymore. I just dont. I got dh into doing it years ago, and it is hard for him to stop, but now I would rather donate to food pantries & such. I cant give to every cause, so when I pass up a guy on the corner I feel fine about it because I know that if he is really hungry he can go to the food pantry & get something. I have done my part. I'm sure some people see that as heartless, but I'm okay with my decision.

Ariadne Umbrell · 02-19-2006, 07:46 PM

Yeah, exactly, this is exactly what I'm asking. It seems like there are a lot of checklist posts ( yes, no, go to XYZ) here, recently, and I really like the conversations.

Ties? Did you feel more spiritually secure? I'm curious. My mom is part of the prosperity church movement. She's been down and out for a few years, and I think it messes with her, not being glossy, wealthy, and having the feedback that says she's on the right track. She calls up and preaches every so often. I think it makes her feel better. I know it bothers her that our house is not a showcase. It's a really cute house, just with toys, and old furniture, and no decorations. I think she was happier, and felt more secure, when she had visible reminders of blessing. It's hard to tell. I know I've stayed home from church b/c I didn't have an appropriate dress.

I want bookcases, and chair rails, and a basket for the newspaper, before I want "decorative elements." Kitsch from china, iow.

I wonder, too, how I'm coming off.

I work with per diem employees- me, too- and like I said, there was one person who needed a payroll loan, for food. She's working on a lean cuisine diet. I offered some suggestions, but not food, and she shot them down, completely, so I don't think the rice and beans would have been appreciated, but I can't believe I was too weenie to try.

I haven't given away anything knit or crochet for years. Years. I had something of a nervous breakdown about that a while ago. I won't. It feels greedy and unbalanced, but I also feel like I need to be providing for my kids, first. I'm not sure if anyone appreciates handmade things. Okay, that's not quite true. I made a prayer shawl for my grandmother. She crochets, and she was surprised I even had the time. I know what color she likes. She was really proud of me taking the time while the boys played in the bathtub, to knit for her.

I made three dishcloths for the neighbor, of the famous soup, and she uses them in bleach water. She even wants more. Okay, there is buying stuff, and assigning whatever use,,,,but when someone gives you something, and tells you about it,,,,,like, 15 years if they're treated right.....it feels wrong and disrespectful to me. I thought. maybe I'm getting a little unhinged, and that maybe I'm making too big of a deal about this....but I don't have much free time or money, so if I arrange to make something, I want it to be loved extravagantly.......

Like, I work around twenty somethings. I wonder if knowing that oatmeal is crazy cheap, or tofu, or pizza, so they can spend on things that are really important-- I wonder if telling them makes a difference. I've made some people sit down and register for 401 ks. and I'm not in personnel. The less- educated ones say " Why bother? I need the money now." The ones with college degrees, or something going on for them, jump on it. It's sort of heartbreaking.

And DH is perfectly happy to point out what an oddball I am. I don't think I am, at all. I think he's odd, and lonely, and clueless, a lot. But then he tells me some friends think I'm strange, too. But I don't know- I don't have many friends IRL right now, and the ones I like best are sort of strange ( his view) in the same ways. I'm kind of wishy- washy.

I know each of you reads as wise, and funny, and worth listening to, I wonder if that's what you are perceived as, in real life, too,.

ari

Rach · 02-19-2006, 09:54 PM

Part of the reason we wanted to move was so we might feel less weird. Even our pediatrician commented on it, not in a mean or inappropriate way, just a, "yep, you guys ought to be happier in Vermont than in Fort Worth, Texas."

I will not paint my toenails or fingernails because I think it's toxic, especially the remover. In Vermont, no one cares. In Texas, I was chronically underdressed. I like practical shoes, same problem. I LIVE for jeans and overalls, they make me happy. Same problem. I really enjoy staying home WITH my kids, as in I do not send them out while I sit at home. In Texas this was very strange (You mean they do not even go to mother's day out!!!!), so far, less of an issue in Vermont.

Health stuff- Ugh! we like to tamper with our diet and see what happens. Every time we tried something we were bombarded with "you idiot" messages and deliberately undermined all the time. Now, people respect our choices even if they still call us idiots behind our backs

We are typical for this group of people, no vax, cd, ec, organics as we can, recycling, composting, and so on. It's all pretty boring here Amity's; in Texas, a second head might have been less disturbing than the cloth diapers.

I could go on and on. I have had moments of pride that I was able to buck the norm in Texas, and lots of times, when I just gave up. It was just too hard (weaning ages is one example). I also HATE offending people and I get soo sad when people see my choices as a judgement on theirs. So, my aunt buys diet drinks for my kids because I am avoiding sugar. Welllll, she listened to me, but not quite. My mil called before the kids went over to ask, "What CAN they eat?" Then fed them Vienna sausages. I said nothing on these occassions, although I did manage to avoid the diet soda. Someone was "trying" to be helpful, but they are so far from where we are that the point gets lost. We just look finicky when we are just trying to watch out for our health.

Then gift giving and food sharing- I have to be very willing to release any gift into the universe. I have filled it with love, but I can control what another person does with that love. Yep- the gifts tend to be unappreciated, or worse, undervalued. (side note/anecdote- My sil reciprocated my handknitted duck family with 8 ducklings by giving my girls dolls she paid $.75 at a garage sale that looked like they came out of a vending machine.) I also accept gifts with the same attitude, so I am not bound to keep things out of line with our values. With food- We always bring dessert that we are confortable with so we have something to feed our kids without causing a stir.

Are you sick of reading, yet? Being different is hard work, but I think being true to ourselves is a gift to ourselves, our children, and the universe.

mammakat · 02-19-2006, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by organicmama

Homeschool vs Public school

Another issue I cannot always pinpoint. My heart says homeschooling is the best....but my mental model is our forefathers and my beleifs that say the family and those social settings the family chooses to engage in are the best way to teach our children to follow through on our values and keep simple life close to heart.
However, with our technological world advancing so rapidly, do my children NEED the training of school. Am I trapping the resources they need to expand in this world we live in by keeping them home with ME as their teacher?
Yes, I can teach them how to harvest herbs for medicine and cook some kick ass food, but can I teach them how to update systems, invent or do other things that our world finds value in.
But since my heart says teach them simplicity, that is what I mostly do.
But I will be crushed if they struggle as adults becuase they did not get some education that I dont teach very well (science for sure)

Herbalism Is science. Follow your instincts. They can learn the rest later. I can always send you some great online tutorials they can check out.

Great post Kr.

And I got my soap and goodies

dreamseeds · 02-20-2006, 12:12 AM

thank you Kath

I truly appreciate that comment from you.

Ari, sometimes food is so connected to a person's entire life, isnt it. Apparantly this person at work is losing weight. And broke it appears. It maybe best that you didn't give her the food unless they have a family to support. If she is lean cuisining it, she would have rejected your gift more than likely. Just because she probably feels lean cuisine is her way to lose those pounds and varying from it could be the ultimate sin. So maybe it was ok not to give to her. You will at least USE it!

And Ann Marie had a great point-she said giving to food pantry's is how she gives. Most churches will give to folks that need food no matter what their religion is. It should be an act of Christ, which should be no string attached.

If this person is really hurting for food, there are alternatives and more than likely, we know what we have to do to survive, which may mean humbling ourselves and cruising down to the local church to get some processed, refined grub. So please dont feel bad.

Maybe if she is willing to deviate from lean cuisine, you could offer to buy her lunch and eat somewhere healthy adn try to see if you can share ideas for healthy eating, if the conversation is open.
AS for the thing with your mom, I can relate. Actually I got into credit card debt becuase I "needed" the fancy dresses from Dillards and the heels to match and the purse too, along with a couple bottles of latest perfume and the bath adn body products and cosmetics..... When my Xdh got hooked on crack and left the family, I was stuck, no job, no car, 4 kiddo's at the time, the mortgage and utility bills were behind because Xdh smoked the money in his crack pipe.
BUT AT LEAST I HAD NICE CLOTHES...lol
I am so glad that part of my life is over...it was hard as hell.

The tie thing was a command that if we wanted to represent God, we needed to drive teh finest, wear teh finest, be honest, hardworking people, and our children need to be dressed perfectly.
They got the honest adn hard working part right...all teh other things are rubbish.

Honestly I do like to shop on occassion for a nice dress, nice shoes, etc....but I usually save my money, pay cash, and it really does not control me like it used to.
So that is my disclaimer...I do on occasion wear new department store clothes, but not often!!!! I am a second hand type of gal

Rach, your story of gifts really makes me think....sometimes gifts are tough. I have tried to give more money to avoid the rejection of possible disappointments. My lil kids are happy with the WAHM made products but things liek that dont work for my teens, brothers or nephews. I learned by watching their faces...lol.
Rach, I also agree on the health stuff. Soemtimes you gotta try things to see what happens for you and your family. That is exactly what got me into herbalism. learning, practicing, and seeing results. But homeopathics have not been AS successful for us whereas it works miraclulously for others that seem to have been treated witht he same symptoms.
(soem homeopathics have done well for us, jsut not a whole lot)

Oh Ari, I saw your other post about moving. I have lived in Wyoming and visited Colorado. Colorado was nice, and I hear that there are crunchy areas that may be fun to visit.
When I lived in Wyoming, it was in Jackson Hole and it was SO BEAUTIFUL. Extremely expensive, but so much to do if you love nature. My oldest son lives there now so maybe I can go visit again before he moves away. Powerful and Breathtaking are the rocky mountains.
If you want to move to another part of Wyoming, I dont know much about the rest of the state except that it can be really dry, but lightly populated as well.
Let us know how the move results, ok

I am sure that must not be an easy move for you.....

anni · 02-20-2006, 12:30 AM

Ari I have thought for a long time that I would love to meet you and what a cool person you must be IRL
It's late so I will post my thoughts tomorrow
anni

Mamax4 · 02-20-2006, 01:53 AM

You gave a neighbor soup and she's talking trash to the other neighbors about it? Or is she just a bad communicator, trying to say it was different from what she usually eats, but that she liked it? I would be more about the spirit in which she speaks, rather than the actual words. Some people say weird when they mean (and shoud say) different or new. Maybe she enjoys the 'different-ness' of you and likes to show you off. As in, "Lookie, this very interesting person made *me* this very interesting soup".

I have cooked for neighbors. When one of my dear neighbors was dying of cancer, I brought her lemon chicken soup and she was pleased. She said she had never had chicken soup with lemon before, but she was entirely gracious. She might have called it interesting, but she probably meant interesting a good way.

If I give a gift, I give it because I want to give, and what happens after that is not of interest to me. I seriously mean that. I give because I enjoy giving. I try to give the 'right' things, but beyond that initial thought process, I let go. Negative energy about gifts is not energy I want to expend.

I will try most anything people serve to me, but i don't change what I make for potlucks etc. I do try to make things like risottos and rice dishes, pasta things etc., that look 'normal' to people. I don't get fancy if it's not warranted. If people don't eat my offering, I have leftovers to bring back home. I am never hurt by the potluck snub. I would be hurt by people sitting in my home, at my table, trashing my offerings. I cook with a lot of love, and I want people to feel welcomed and relaxed--if someone is being mean, that's just wrong, and while pithy to say, they are really not worth my time. Opening my home to people I care about is not the same as contributing rice to a church picnic.

If people ask me about food, I share what I like to cook etc. (And sometimes when they don't. Just depends on the conversation). I share my thoughts on the healing nature of garlic, fi, and I share that often. But I also don't care if a friend is on Weight Watchers meals . I respect that she may really rely on that portion size, control, and particular taste. Maybe to have the food already prepared keeps her from stressing out too much. It's actually not the worst food a person could eat. If she comes to me saying is too $$ and tastes bad, that's different. As for the healing nature of garlic, it doesn't bother me a bit when others don't agree. lol I don't try to change their mind. It's not about what I think.

(Hey-some of the nicest people I know have gone on Diet Coke and Ranch Pringles binges. lol)

Oftentimes, a light hand is better than a heavy one in letting people know what you're about. Everyone is at a different place in their seeking of information. I don't have a need for anyone to think my word is the word. I've learned a lot from folks, and I hope people can learn good things from me as well. Honestly, that has to come in a person's own time frame.

craftymama · 02-20-2006, 08:21 PM

Hi. I am lurker here and I just have to say I have never heard a group of women put into words the feelings I feel on a normal basis. Amazing. Thank you!

mammakat · 02-20-2006, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariadne Umbrell

I know each of you reads as wise, and funny, and worth listening to, I wonder if that's what you are perceived as, in real life, too,.

My brother told me yesterday that I am in a cult. We all eat the same thing. We all have the same freaky ideals. I had to remind myself that I am simply rejecting his cult. Pop culture is the queen of all cults.

I pass it on by teaching my high school students that there is a different way to live and to think. No big lectures. Just small things on a regular basis. I give group assignments like "explain to a starving mom of 5 in Africa the purpose of a mall." or "explain to the burrowing owl what has happened to his ancestral home." At this point in their lives they are usually pretty open to thinking outside the paradigm.

dreamseeds · 02-21-2006, 12:54 PM

Pop culture is the queen of all cults, huh? I like that Kath.