amitymamaThe Attachment Parenting Community

BlueRoseMama · 10-27-2004, 12:48 AM

I was talking to a friend today about the system that we live in. She was saying that I was the only friend that she has that is party political. She was outlining how she believes it should be. Some of it was very hypicritical... Talking about how there should be no gov and then saying how she called the cops on he neighbors because they were beating their children. Things like that that just didn't quite fit together but I understood both sides... you know? Other parts of it was really disterbing. Like talking about not supporting our people in the troops because they were vollentary, and then talking about how if there was a shortage of troops people should just leave the coutry to avoid the drafts that would result in "not being part of the war machine".

In my mind (because at this point with her the fight is worthless, so mostly I listen... lol) I was thinking that she throws her vote away by not being part of the system. The co's and the gov agencies do not listen because she has decided to be so outside what this culture is about that she has put herself on this fringe liberal minority that has little voice they are so radical. I mean it is not like I don't have Fight Club moments where I just want to blow the crap out of the credit card co's and major gov buildings just to see what happens. But I fight the fight the way I can with out violence and major radical upheaval that would ensue if we were to do things like that. I think that part of what I stand for is important and I fight what I call the "peaceful revolution". I don't believe that saying "You all need to just change your ways to mine because they are better" is going to work. That seems like logic to me... If you are not part of the system, at least in some ways... how can you change it?

Any thoughts?

Love Val

Suzie · 10-27-2004, 10:10 AM

I struggle with this. I often can see both sides of an issue and can rationalize why both is right(and wrong).

I fight against injustices by voting, choosing where my dollar goes, in what I clothe myself/family in, what we eat and most important to me....how I raise my children. I believe that what I teach them and the "why" of it can make a huge impact on the world. When they become adults and make decisions, I hope they take a little of what I've tried to bestow in them.

~Hope~ · 10-27-2004, 10:32 AM

I think the best way to change is to be in the system.

One example, herbs.
I am a firm believer of using herbs in healing.
Does anyone listen to me?
No.
(After years of knowing me and observing my life and results I have, then they will speak to me about herbs.)
Now, a doctor's office dh's aunt works at starting telling their patients to use herbs sometimes.
Now, dh's family is all excited about how 'good' herbs are because a doctor told them it was ok.

An example on another level.
Civil rights.
I was listening to NPR the other day, it was talking about civil rights leaders in North Carolina.
A group of citizens that came together for change.
They realized they would get more if they were in the government themselves, so they ran and helped others run (and win) places in the government.

Hope

MamaMel · 10-27-2004, 01:05 PM

I think staying out side the system is the way to change the system. My thought is if I am in the system how can I change it, they are usually to entrenched to change.

My best example is that I didn't change my name when I got married. I hated the idea that a man 'owned' a woman to the point that she no longer had a name, she was Mrs. Joe Smith. I always got angry seeing mail for my Mom, who did change her name, she is a separate person! So I decided long ago not to change my name in an effort to change the system. I know it could really take generations to change, which I know it will, and at least I am part of it. Does that make sense?

I can't in good consience (sp) be part of a system I don't believe in or would want to make significant changes to.

apbooklady · 10-27-2004, 06:14 PM

Quote:

My best example is that I didn't change my name when I got married. I hated the idea that a man 'owned' a woman to the point that she no longer had a name, she was Mrs. Joe Smith. I always got angry seeing mail for my Mom, who did change her name, she is a separate person! So I decided long ago not to change my name in an effort to change the system. I know it could really take generations to change, which I know it will, and at least I am part of it. Does that make sense?

I guess things really depend on your point of view. I felt honored to take my husband's name. Not that he owned me in any way- I felt it was an outward sign to one and all that we were one in family and purpose. I also did not want my maiden name- to me it symbolized my stepdad owned me.

Anyway, back to topic, I think it depends on the issue

BlueRoseMama · 10-27-2004, 07:17 PM

A friend of mines last name is Penny... her dh is Felch. She kept Penny. They have three girls. The first one was born before they were married so she is a Penny... the second was born and they wanted her named Felch... and the third they decided (since there was one of each already) that if it was a boy they would name him Felch, but if it was a girl she would be named Penny. So they have another Penny.

I think it did too... although the taking of the name Rose is not hard... lol... If it had been some hidious name I would have kept my madien name. Not a matter of him owning me, just simply a matter of choice.

Under stricked christan standards this considered going against the system, but I think most other parts of the American population have changed their minds about that since the feminist movement. I was talking more about political leanings, media, and other things that you must be part of to change.

For example. If someone does not like the welfare system, but has never needed it, or used it, how can they really critisize? Not to say they do not have a right to, but their informational base would be less valid than say, someone who used the system, got off it, had it help and/or hinder them, and is looking at changes that were made for the worse. Does that make sense? That is the type of changes I was talking about. I hate it when well off politicians start talking about welfare reform. As if they have EVER had any clue what it is like to live in that type of situation. It bugs me...

Another example... if someone has never owned a tv, but openly critisizes the television of someone else, wouldn't that bother you? I understand their leanings, and agree for the most part, but I would be more inclined to listen to someone who gave up the tv and had dramatic, wonderful results... than someone who has never owned a television. Make sense?

That is more of what I was talking about.

Love Val

choleblack · 10-27-2004, 10:01 PM

i'm not a peaceful change person. historically all the change that has been made and made any difference has been violent & bloody.

i beleive that once there are enough people outside of the "system" the system will be unable to function & real change can happen only in the absance of a functioning system. right now our system functions to well for people to see the flaws in it. since it's working the majority assumes it's working well. kind of like when your driving your car. you think it's doing fine because it's running right? but internally it's about to blow up you just cant see it if you don't go looking. when it does blow up you wont have any choice but to fix it.

Chole

anni · 10-29-2004, 10:47 PM

Val bless you for always making us think and discuss topics that (I think) matter.
I'm loving this thread...........and it is actually giving me a bit of a chuckle.
I like the part about not changing your name because of the 'he owns me' reason, and how not changing your name is being out of the system, ??? Isn't getting married being part of the system?
BUT then as to Val's last comment...I've never been married so I cant' comment. lol Although I consider not getting married my stand against the system, especially being raised and schooled Catholic.

As far as the original question goes my response made me think of what I read in the Habits of Highly Effective Families book (I think) and that talked about circle of influence. I cannot really influence world hunger but I can influence what we eat here at my home, which influences farming practices, which influences.....
therefore start with a small cirle of inluence and it grows outward.
I read the book along time ago so I may have corrupted what it actually said there...but it works for me

anni

BlueRoseMama · 10-29-2004, 11:24 PM

I just had this huge reply and I lost it because our stupid computer is messing up again. It was so thought out and it is lost... grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

Ugh...

Anyway, thanks anni. And I love your kids names btw.

Love Val

brooken · 10-30-2004, 03:34 PM

My best example of working w/ the system is my dh. He's getting a nursing degree, when really what he wants to be doing is medical qi gong. Its a much longer, harder road to get the western degree, but he feels like he can introduce everyone in the mainsteam to alternative healing if he's got an RN. Can you imagine if our mainstream hospitals actually used herbs, acupunture, reiki, etc.
My job, on the other hand, is very "outside the system." My bakery can't pay me much, but I get plenty of organic bread and can barter with it, give sweets as gifts, etc. Not to mention that natural mothering, homeschooling, etc, is definately not supported by the system, either.
Our two ways of life (dh and mine) clash sometimes. He thinks I should get a good paying job at a hospital and put dd in daycare, or otherwise find a way to be a 2 income family. We're far from that and I'm strong in my position.
To me the issue is, do you want to withdraw from the mainstream into a small community of like-minded thinkers, or do you want to be in the "world community."
I don't know, I think the mainstream is very sick in many ways. But I think those of us who want to bring change and new ideas have such an important place within it.
I guess like anything there are different levels or ways of being in the system or out of it. Just by not shopping at Walmart, you're out of it in some way.
Sorry this is so rambling.

maxnmaizy · 10-31-2004, 07:36 PM

First off I agree that to be able to influence the "system" you have to have some kind of credibility and that may include being part of the system...Hmm I'm not sure I'm going to make any sense here if I can't figure out my wording.....

OK, say you would like to change the world with chinese medicine. Well first off you start with yourself of course. But to be albe to make a difference in mainstream culture that vallues DOCTORS, you may need to first become a Dr. of western medicine to prove you have the capability of understanding it, then you can go ahead and say look at this amazing ancient medicine that has been in practice for thousands of years and it works....In our culture the vallue system is so it is necessary first to "prove" your vallue in a way that the mainstream can process.

As for the wellfare system. no way can anyone ever know what it is like to be in that situation unless they are, but how often are people on wlefare elected to office!?? Extensive research would need to be done to find out what's working and what's not for the families on wellfare, not just a politician coming in and saying we need to change this and that....

In my humble, pretty uneducated opinion I believe that you can not just sit back and ***** and say how much the system sucks, then just sit on your ass and say I'm not gonna play their game. There has to be a door, in which you need to wedge yourself into to stand and make a change.

But of course it all starts at home. Buycott, be a conscience consumer, raise your families with wordly vallues and openess and tolerance to all peoples.

Quote:

I cannot really influence world hunger but I can influence what we eat here at my home, which influences farming practices, which influences.....

YES!!! We all make a difference in our families, communties. state, country, world.

We are studying Population in my geograpy class and when I looked at the world population number I thought "and I am one of those people, without me there would be one less person" Well 3 less persons! We do count!

Ariadne Umbrell · 11-01-2004, 11:26 PM

I suppose my question is " How much a part?" Like, my stepmom is a Democratic delegate. That's pretty intensely involved. My MIL feels that even showing up and voting, as a woman, is involved. She can't stand "party politics," and she's really not suited to them, anyway. They are both involved to the limits of their personality, education and ability.

My Dad can't actively campaign, he's a government worker, but he can talk to people who can, and help them think through things. He's at his limit.

Structurally- I'm not invited in- I have two small children, and the very idea that mothers with limited to non- existent childcare arrangements might be able to be in a campaign----not really possible, I've been told. ( I've asked.) So, in effect, my "circle of influence" - ie me, and my friends who stay home with children, are not "In." or "with a voice." Have you even heard the candidates wives? I don't even exist, except as some odd, foreign, possibly right wing Republican concept. I find it horrifying.
That even ten years ago, I would be considered a normal, mainstream, sensible person of good values---and now I'm a media freak, a parasite upon my husbands' income, a slacker---it's horrifying.

Names- systems- that's a silly, Anglo- Saxon construction. In the Latin countries, you take each other's names, as do your children. And then there is a tradition after that, for the kids.

I must say, though, I'll remember this time, and I've been thoroughly radicalized by motherhood.

back to the question: people who "opt out" have always had a name: "peasants." Peasants don't have any say, or any concept of how things work, or who works the levers of power. It looks like a spooky movie to them. Or some weird science fiction thing. People who do run things, or have a say, or are in the military, or in the religious services, or hospital services---------have always been a "natural aristocracy" or " natural meritocracy." That's been the biggest thing about literacy- more people step up to the ruling plate.

ari

Thmom · 11-03-2004, 06:49 PM

I think there is a balance. You definately have to have some credibilaty to make a real change in any system.
I hate the current medical system and how it treats birth, mothers and babies. But if I just stand outside the hospital and scream about injustices, hand out literature etc I'm just going to be seen as an extremists. And some might listen and change but to make real change people need to trust me and my knowledge and in this society that means I have to have something or someone backing me up saying I'm not just a lunatic. lol! So I'll be going through classes etc to be a licensed MW. Though I don't think it's necessary to deliver babies.

But I think it can be hard not to get engulfed by the sytem and loose yourself and your principles in it. I think this is where it's important to have "extremest" friends. People who light the fire and revive the spark of your particular fight. People that help you remeber why you're rubbing elbows with people you throughly disagree with and what the end goal is.

So I guess I think that both "types" of people make a change are are necessary to the change of things.

maxnmaizy · 11-04-2004, 12:27 AM

Quote:

I think this is where it's important to have "extremest" friends. People who light the fire and revive the spark of your particular fight. People that help you remeber why you're rubbing elbows with people you throughly disagree with and what the end goal is.

OOHH, I love Extremist Friends! I want more...Anyone here wanna be my extremist friend?