amitymamaThe Attachment Parenting Community

mnemonics · 03-07-2004, 09:09 AM

http://mercola.com/2004/jan/21/soy.htm

KD suggested I post this here. I'd like to know if anyone has more info on whether this is true or research to the contrary......

I'm actually concerned for my best friend who turned vegetarian 4-5 yrs back and started drinking soy milk a couple of yrs back and last year found out she had a huge cyst which destroyed her left ovary, has endometriosis which inflammed her appendix, and who all along has been desperately trying to conceive their first baby

...... Could eating too much soy products have contributed to this....

Monica

arasmama · 03-07-2004, 02:01 PM

I think *anything* in huge quantities can be dangerous, especially something that is highly processed. I think it is kind of gross how many vegans eat mass quantities of processed soy. All those fake dairy products (like soy cheese) are so nasty, not just taste, but the ingredient list.

That said, we eat soy but I limit our intake. We use soy milk for baking (almond milk for cereal, we drink water) and eat tofu once a month or so. I try to avoid processed food, most of which have soy protien in them. We do eat edamame beans for snacks, but I actually think those are fine. And we only eat organic soy, non organic is GMO.

I have the same attitude about dairy. Huge quantities are bad for you, but I think small quantities are fine.

Eat too many carrots and your skin turns orange. Eat too many oranges and you get diahrrea. Moderation.

Sara · 03-07-2004, 03:24 PM

I don't know if you've read any of Susun Weed's books but she recommends only eating fermented soy products.

RAF · 03-07-2004, 07:01 PM

Hello, I just had to post because I know of quite a few women, myself included, who had horrible problems after starting to consume soy or were vegetarians for any length of time. Apparently the soy drastically affects hormonal balances and can cause tumors and fibroids to grow as well as depress the thyroid. If you eat soy or are concerned about it, I think it is important to check out this site:
http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/

I also had problems due to soy intake. I was *not* eating lots of soy! I just started consuming it within the same year I started having hypothyroid symptoms, and my intake was fairly limited. My breasts started producing a milky substance, I was not pregnant or nursing nor had I ever been, and I started getting depressed, tired and cold alot among other symptoms. I also had major endometriosis symptoms flaring and ended up having surgery to remove it. I would not consume *any* soy products unless it is properly fermented, which usually takes several years. The traditional cultures who consumed soy, only had small quantities of it and well fermented at that.
Also see: http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

The soy industry is not any better than the factory farmed meat and dairy industry. Rainforest is destroyed to grow soy, and also the pesticides used on soy crops are nothing to support either. I would never in a million years give soy to a child. They are developing and should not have their hormones messed with at such an important time in their lives! As for dairy, it isn't necessary for life (unless it is breastmilk, of course

), but I don't consider it as horrid as processed, unfermented soy, especially if it is raw dairy from healthy, pastured cows. Quality raw dairy is nothing like the confinement dairy products, and is also much higher in quality than the pasteurized, "organic" milk you buy in cartons from the store.

Okay, that is my bit.

I hope I don't get flamed for posting this truth I have learned the hard way.

sweetpeasma · 03-08-2004, 04:24 PM

Just like what arasmama said- with almost everything, I think the key is moderation. Heck even water is bad if you consume too much at once. I eat only organic soy.
As for the hypothryoid issue, I can only speak from experience. Before I started to consume any soy I had hypothyroidism. I was on meds, but they really didn't help out. I stopped taking them. I started eating soy products. I have been eating them for 4 years now. I went to get my thyroid levels check. Normal! go figure. So if soy does cause problems w/thyroids, it sure didn't affect me in the least.

mnemonics · 03-08-2004, 05:14 PM

Thanks for your responses.

RAF - thanks for the links and sharing your experience......it seems really similar to what my friend is going thru....I've forwarded the links to her.....at 32 she's going to be trying IVF to conceive in a few mths...... its scary to think that something you eat / drink could contribute to infertility.....

Looking back at my post I see I mentioned eating "too much" of soy products . Actually I should have mentioned "eating soy products" period. She drinks soy milk everyday but eats other soy products once a week or less, so I doubt it is in excess .....

Monica

woodfairie · 03-08-2004, 06:35 PM

I wanted to reply to this statement:
"The soy industry is not any better than the factory farmed meat and dairy industry. Rainforest is destroyed to grow soy, and also the pesticides used on soy crops are nothing to support either."

The majority of soybeans grown in the world are used to feed cattle. Most soymilk companies, as well as other health food companies that use soy products, use only organically grown soybeans. Organic farmers do not use chemicals on their crops, and they also run smaller, kinder farms based on principles that protect and sustain the earth. I think that it is unfair to imply that vegetarians that use soy products are supporting those negative environmental practices. A person who ate conventionally grown beef, and McDonalds fries (fried in soybean oil) would be supporting those practices far more.

I think you have to be very careful when you are reading any "research"...either negative or postive on the internet. I researched soy a few years back, and was surprised to find that the dairy industry had sponsored much of the research on the evils of soy. And when a certain group does a study trying to find a certain goal (and have economic benefits to gain if the study turns out the way they want), things can get biased. You can manipulate research to get results either way, depending on how you set things up. Also, it seemed that many of the studies were done on animals and did not mimic human consumption of soy (for instance, the animals were fed massive quantities of extremely concentrated soy (that had been highly, highly refined and processed), and nothing else) They were not eating a balanced diet, and were consuming levels of soy that it would be impossible for humans to consume, even if they were eating soy at every meal. I think that many foods would produce adverse results when ingested in this manner.

Christy

RAF · 03-09-2004, 12:09 PM

Hello Christy and others,

I don't wish to get into a lengthy debate here about soy and agriculture, etc. I do appreciate your post about the soy industry using small, kind farms for their crops. I am not aware that the organic soy crops are really that much better than the conventional soy crops. Please, tell me the names of these farms of which you speak. I would gladly accept the info, if it is really true.

Monoculture is monoculture. Yes, pesticides are bad and they pollute the environment, make us ill, etc., but there is *so* much more to creating a healthy planet than *not* using pesticides. I believe in *improving* the earth, not just sustaining it. Just tilling the soil is harmful for the earth! Topsoil is continually lost. The size of a farm does not necessarily mean anything. Now before I get carried away, I would like to mention that this is a topic very near and dear to me, as I am a farmer or more of a "homesteader" perhaps. I am extremely interested in the subject of biodiversity in agriculture and the actual improvement of soil fertility and health over generations. Animals are an essential component of that. Raising livestock on pasture rather than feeding grain and soy is an answer and solution to the issue of sustaining and improving the land. Also, having diversity on land is essential. I don't just mean crop rotation either. I will voraciously read any articles and books on the subject and am continually learning more about this.

Okay, also I would *never* recommend anyone eat at McDonald's. I am very confused where that statement of yours came from. Yes, eating at most places, including some healthfood stores supports lots of industries that it probably would be better *not* to support, so I agree with you there.

About soy research, look at the entire body of research. I'm sure there are some studies that may not add up, but you can't ignore all of it. It needs to be considered and carefully, before deciding to include soy as a staple of one's diet. Much research is done on animals. Humans are animals. I don't think that animal research can be discounted in the way you seem to think it can. There are also studies done on humans as well, along with the sheer volume of anecdotal human evidence I come across every week. Also, about the amounts ingested, the results showed substantial damage to many, many different organs and bodily systems from soy consumption. That is frightening! Much research on whether certain substances are toxic or not is done in this way, using condensed amounts. IF there is a question about possible damage from soy consumption, and there is a *huge* question about soy safety, don't you think people should err on the side of caution? Also, I don't know if I fully agree that "many other foods would produce adverse results when ingested in this manner" unless you are talking about foods recently introduced into human diets such as grains, legumes, dairy, etc. Like I mentioned previously with the soy research, when the extent and reach of the damage to so many different organs and systems in a body is taken into account, I don't think it is just about the concentrated amounts being given in the studies. It is about soy having many different, far-reaching, toxic effects.

Okay, now I am about out of time, as my baby is starting to stir. I would like to mention a website that I have found very informative about different diets and scientific, anecdotal and historical evidence to support or disprove them at:
http://www.beyondveg.com.

They also have good information about nutrition with vegan and vegetarian diets and what nutrients and minerals you need to be extra careful about when on these diets.

Also, sweetpeasma, soy *does* have goitrogenic effects. It is good that you feel that you have recovered, but perhaps you are an exception. Hypothyroid individuals are usually made aware that consuming goitreogenic substances is harmful for them, including things like cabbage, broccoli, chard and soy. It is just a fact. I didn't make it up.

Anyway, I don't really enjoy debating that much, especially about touchy subjects such as this one, so I am going to call it quits for now and hope that I haven't upset anyone too terribly much.

After all I believe that many on this board are seekers of truth and would appreciate having different dietary paradigms presented, besides just the "low-fat, high-carb is healthy" information I usually see here.

Thanks for reading if you made it this far.