Re: thanks everyone but my point is that I don't see it coming from the Muslim Community
Thanks all for posting back... I think I will take up some of your suggestions and contact the UC Berkeley Islamic studies group (I'm sure they must have a dept like that) and get their take on this.
Couple of things though...yes, Christians did horrible things in the name of God not all that long ago, and some still do, but the general consensus is that it was wrong and misguided. I mean the Crusades and Inquistion, etc. Yet today, we are in the 21st century, with the benefit of hindsight, and I don't hear moderate Muslims, heck, any Muslims really making a big push to say, we are not for this,we do not believe in killing in Allah's name, etc. And by a big push, I mean a 1000 person march, a 10000 person march or rally, not a speaker here and there, not just the Oprah show, though that is a start.
Secondly, I understand the media is biased. But I also don't think its the media or everyone else in this country that should bear the entire brunt of thinking in a big minded fashion and saying hey, of course not all Muslims believe this. (though I am very much against these narrow minded people who lump everyone together and do stupid things to them). I'm just saying, why is it that I don't see a march in Washington DC or NY or LA, a big show of force on the part of Muslims (and whoever else may want to join in) to say, hey we are not like this, its not so bad here in America (for better or worse, not everything is great, but its ok and that's why we CHOOSE to live here, amongst those whom our brothers back in the MIdeast and SE Asia call the devil). I recall not to long ago there was a million man march or whatever of black men. I think there were some Muslims amongst them. And this attack seems just as big of an issue as what those Million Men were marching for.
I'm sort of thinking what the impact would be to the Muslim brothers and sisters in these other countries who think America is so bad. The impact of seeing their own Muslims marching would be more I think than hearing people say "not all Muslims are like this" etc. And the effect on the American public, yes, even the thickheaded ones who lump all Muslims together, would be beneficial.
Personally, I do think maybe more than less of these Muslims around the world feel that America has gotten its comeuppance: we put our fingers in too many pies, we're arrogant, we support Israel, we don't listen, heck, most people didn't even know where the heck Afghanistan was or how to spell that name before this happened. So though they may not agree with the means, maybe the message is not all that far off, and so in a sense, this bin Laden is a hero, with the guts to stand up to big ole America and all its military and monetary might. Thanks Jenny for the allegory. I think you are onto something there.
Lastly, gotta run, but Christ did die for his faith and to save us, but he didn't say go around and kill all the gentiles and Jews and God would let him into Heaven. But I see how easily religion and faith can be twisted. I think Mohammed,Christ, Allah, God...all are very sad now that we are fighting and using their name to justify it.
Ooops, gotta go, but thanks so mcuh for responses.
Judy
Judy
mommy to my sweet baby Alex
coming soon www.babydewdrops.com!
Quick drying, versatile, travel friendly diaper products...
gentle on baby, gentle on the Earth!
Re: thanks everyone but my point is that I don't see it coming from the Muslim Community
>> I'm just saying, why is it that I don't see a march in Washington DC or NY or LA, a big show of force on the part of Muslims (and whoever else may want to join in) to say, hey we are not like this, its not so bad here in America (for better or worse, not everything is great, but its ok and that's why we CHOOSE to live here, amongst those whom our brothers back in the MIdeast and SE Asia call the devil). <<
WEll, gee, maybe becuase they're afraid? Maybe because a whole hell of a lot of people wouldn't even bother listening to the message, they'd just hear "group of Muslims" and come start up some violence? Maybe because a lot of Muslim feel, not altogether incorrectly, that the intolerance in this country at this particular time isn't amenable to Muslim marches of whatever, but rather that such an event sould be a perfect target for ignorant people to cause trouble.
I know that if I were a Muslim, you can bet your bottom dollar I would not be out there educating people about "nice Muslims". I"d be sitting at home watching TV and keeping a low profile.
Re: thanks everyone but my point is that I don't see it coming from the Muslim Community
well, I can see that, but then are they not just perpetuating and allowing the stereotypes to continue? I would say there is more power in numbers and the folks that dare to speak out on Oprah or NPR or wherever (without making qualifications, just plain saying what the terrorists did was wrong and not get into all the injustice the Western nations have wreaked on Muslims)... should be even more afraid.
I'm Chinese, and you'd better believe if some nutcases from China came and did this, I would not hesitate to try to get a group together, at the risk of having ignorant people throw bottles at us. Because if we don't speak up, then are we not just joining the enemy, complicity in our silence. How can I expect others, not of my faith, color, breed to understand when I don't speak up, whether as one, but even better as a group, so that others can understand not everyone of my same color, faith, breed think alike?
And wouldn't you think if there was a rally of some sort, there would be security? I don't buy it. Aren't these same Muslims basically living in fear right now, of ignorant people? They can continue living that way as long as their Muslim brothers and sisters have no problem speaking out in these other countries and continue to commit terrorist acts.
I think of myself, if I saw 4 or 5 Arab men, similar looking to the ones who commited the terrorist acts, boarding the same airplane, or bus, or getting in the same elevator, and there I am, with my family, oh, hell yeah, I'd think twice before getting on. So I to have to live in fear too. Its not just them.
Ok, I'm rambling. I see your point that it could be scary to be involved in a rally, but on the other hand, I think one needs to find the courage to stand up and say what one stands for. I for one, would not want to be associated with Chinese terrorists. I face enough ignorant racism.
Judy
mommy to my sweet baby Alex
coming soon www.babydewdrops.com!
Quick drying, versatile, travel friendly diaper products...
gentle on baby, gentle on the Earth!
Re: thanks everyone but my point is that I don't see it coming from the Muslim Community
Well....hmmm....let's see.
I think Anise is right...about people being afraid..I'd be scared myself.
ANd I would like to ask if you have a Muslim community in your area...could you, instead of asking them to reach out to you, could you reach out to them?
Call or drop by their offices...or even by a Mosque. Maybe they do have programs in place and you just don't know about them.
And Mohamed made a point of NOT killing non-Muslims. He expected that the live peacefully under Muslim rule, but advocated everyone worshipping who they wanted in the way they wanted. For a very brief period, Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together peacefully - then, the misunderstandings began......
Jennifer
<font color=purple> Every blade of grass has its angel that bends over it and whispers, "Grow, grow". -- The Talmud </font color=purple>
And Mohamed made a point of NOT killing non-Muslims. He expected that they live peacefully under Muslim rule, but advocated everyone worshipping who they wanted in the way they wanted.
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I suppose this depends on your point of view. Religious minorities who were monotheistic (Jews and Christians) were subject to the laws of Dhimmi under Islamic rule. Among other things, this meant that they were not killed, but they were restricted to living in certain areas, and only allowed to earn a living in a very few ways. Often, they were made to wear identifying clothing or hats to mark them as non-Muslims. They had to put up with indignities such as having stones thrown at them and not being able to defend themselves. So their status was of a protected, but inferior and barely tolerated minority. Religious minorities that were non-monotheistic had it even worse.
I told myself my previous post on this subject was going to be my last, but I do enjoy a good debate, so here I am again. ;-)
Elissa, part-time preschool teacher and all-the-time mom to Ariel (6-20-88) Sammy, (6-22-95) and Benjy (8-14-98)
Re: thanks everyone but my point is that I don't see it coming from the Muslim Community
Thanks Elissa!
I'm always happy to be told I'm wrong...seriously...how else would we learn anything?
What I've said I got from both a PBS show on Islam and a lengthy discussion with a Muslim friend in college...neither infallible or ultimate sources of knowledge or truth...LOL.
What you've said is very interesting to me...I'll have to resarch some more...Thanks again!
Jennifer
<font color=purple> Every blade of grass has its angel that bends over it and whispers, "Grow, grow". -- The Talmud </font color=purple>
I just said it depends on your point of view. If you were a Muslim at the time when, historically, most conquering people killed those of other religions, then you would probably feel pretty generous allowing those of other religions to continue to live, even if they had limited rights. On the other hand, if you were one of the religious minorities living in that situation, you may not feel that they were so benevolent.
Here's an interesting review of the book "Dhimmi" by Bat Ye'Or that I cut and pasted from Amazon.com. I haven't read the book, but maybe it would be interesting as part of your research.
The history of Jews and Christians living under Islam is not widely known. When thinking of it at all, one looks to the glories of Islamic Spain or to the Ottoman Empire. The general historical reality is different from these however. Bat Ye'or provides an excellent overview of this history in the first part of her book and a wide variety of source documents in the second.
Here we learn of the religiously sanctioned forced conversions, daily humiliations, massacres, oppression, inequitable taxation, and the like, which eventually led to the near disappearance of the extensive Christian and Jewish communities which had flourished throughout the Near East and North Africa prior to the advent of Islam.
As "dhimmi" (people of the contract) Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians and others of the accepted religions had no rights of citizenship within a Muslim state. As "protected peoples" they had no right to self-defense. They were at best tolerated and at all times living without security - subject to the law but not protected by it.
For example, Jews and Christians are specifically accused in the Qur'an of having falsified God's word. In past Islamic societies therefore, Jews and Christians were considered to be willfully and knowingly adhering to a lie. As religiously convicted liars, they were given no standing in courts of law and could be convicted of crimes on the unsupported word of two Muslim males. The abuses of this system were extensive.
All-in-all, Bat Ye'or's two books ("The Dhimmi" and "The Decline of Near Eastern Christianity under Islam") do much to re-illuminate the forgotten history of Jews and Christians under Islam. They deserve a wide readership.
As an aside here to prove the non-partisanship of my review, it's worth pointing out that the historical behavior of Christian societies toward indigenous Jews and heretics was no better. Muslim societies took a cue for much of their discriminatory legislation from the intolerant religious laws of the conquered Christian Byzantines. True religions display peculiar proofs, don't they.
The hard-cover edition of "The Dhimmi" is currently out-of-print it seems. However Amazon.com carries the paper-back. Get it while it is available if you're interested at all in the history of "protected peoples" living under Islam.
Elissa, part-time preschool teacher and all-the-time mom to Ariel (6-20-88) Sammy, (6-22-95) and Benjy (8-14-98)
LOL...you're right...I said I was wrong...
LOL
And after thinking about it, I remember the PBS show saying that after conquering a city, the non-Muslim inhabitants expected to be slaughtered...and were very surprised when they were not, encouraging many of them to convert to Islam.
I wonder if the practice you are describing was devised by Mohammed or by later Islam-based governments....
At any rate...I wasn't being flippant when I thanked you for your reply...I was being honest. I'm always happy to be shown another point of view and/or be told some new information.
That's the basis for any kind of intellectual/spiritual growth. There is no learning without challenges... http://www.amitymama.com/images/icons/smile.gif
Jennifer
<font color=purple> Every blade of grass has its angel that bends over it and whispers, "Grow, grow". -- The Talmud </font color=purple>
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