Spiritual DiscussionsThis is the place at AW for mamas to learn about all different religions and beliefs, to ask questions, to give answers- all done with respect! if you don't have anything nice to say here- don't say anything at all.
s/o can someone explain to me - either here or in pm - why
socialism is anti-christian? Now, I realize that no one has explicitly said it just like that, but I am having a difficult time understanding why so many conservative Christians have a problem with socialism because it would seem to me that Jesus was all about taking care of those around you?
Now, I'm not asking this out of the spirit of debate. I am asking this out of the spirit of understanding, so I'm happy with pms if people would rather not have this as a debate.
But, I am off for a run and I will want to read everything and try to understand from your perspective before I ask more questions (which, I will try to keep from a perspective of seeking understanding).
Thanks!
ETA: don't include abortion. I can understand how many conservative Christians would be anti-abortion and the conservative political side is anti-abortion. Besides, that isn't really part of socialism. So, I want your education of me in this regard to eliminate the abortion issue. Thanks!
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Jonathan
Louisburg Cider Mill
October 2009
"Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law?
Jesus said until him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And, the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments have all the law and the prophets."
socialism is anti-christian? Now, I realize that no one has explicitly said it just like that, but I am having a difficult time understanding why so many conservative Christians have a problem with socialism because it would seem to me that Jesus was all about taking care of those around you?
Now, I'm not asking this out of the spirit of debate. I am asking this out of the spirit of understanding, so I'm happy with pms if people would rather not have this as a debate.
But, I am off for a run and I will want to read everything and try to understand from your perspective before I ask more questions (which, I will try to keep from a perspective of seeking understanding).
Thanks!
ETA: don't include abortion. I can understand how many conservative Christians would be anti-abortion and the conservative political side is anti-abortion. Besides, that isn't really part of socialism. So, I want your education of me in this regard to eliminate the abortion issue. Thanks!
I think that to have any discussion like this the terms have to be defined. So what is your definition of socialism? Oh and you take all the "fun" out of it by putting the ETA perimeters on the discussion. (I hope you know I am just kidding.)
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Robin wife to one awesome guy for 19 years,
mama to four beautiful boys
Jesus did talk about taking care of those around us - but not at government orders. The Bible absolutely talks of taking care of the widow and orphan but it also tells the young widows to get married again and have children - and not make someone else take care of them. It tells families to take care of their own. It tells us that whoever doesn't work doesn't eat. No where is the government to take ownership of industry and such away from the people, which socialism teaches. It's completely against what the Bible teaches from beginning to end.
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Ann
SAHM to 4 beautiful children Lauren ('90), Nicole ('92), Robert ('00) and Joanna ('02) and wife to Bob for 23 years.
I think that to have any discussion like this the terms have to be defined. So what is your definition of socialism? Oh and you take all the "fun" out of it by putting the ETA perimeters on the discussion. (I hope you know I am just kidding.)
I think that the definition should be defined by those on the conservative side who use it derogatorily. I am seeing it used as an insult when discussing President Obama. So, whatever that definition is.
Then, the ETA is just because I understand that portion of it and because I don't think that abortion is inherently something I understand to be a necessary component of a socialistic government.
Jesus did talk about taking care of those around us - but not at government orders. The Bible absolutely talks of taking care of the widow and orphan but it also tells the young widows to get married again and have children - and not make someone else take care of them. It tells families to take care of their own. It tells us that whoever doesn't work doesn't eat. No where is the government to take ownership of industry and such away from the people, which socialism teaches. It's completely against what the Bible teaches from beginning to end.
I had considered this component of it as I was running and thinking about the connection. Where in the bible, and I know you know your way around the bible, does it talk about that the government should NOT take a portion of that responsibility?
And, what if the people don't take care of those around them? Then what? What should happen to those who have needs that the government is not allowed to meet and those around them are not stepping up and taking care of?
Then, where does it say that whoever doesn't work doesn't eat?
And, thank you for helping understand this from your POV.
I had considered this component of it as I was running and thinking about the connection. Where in the bible, and I know you know your way around the bible, does it talk about that the government should NOT take a portion of that responsibility?
All through the New Testament, it is told that it is the church's responsibility to take care of the poor. Unfortunately, because of the government taking so much in taxes, giving in churches is not what it could be.
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And, what if the people don't take care of those around them? Then what? What should happen to those who have needs that the government is not allowed to meet and those around them are not stepping up and taking care of?
Those who do not take care of their own family is as bad as an "infidel". Beyond that, it is the church's job to help the poor. No where is government supposed to step in and it wasn't until the 20th century that the government ever did.
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Then, where does it say that whoever doesn't work doesn't eat?
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." 2 Thessalonians 3:10
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And, thank you for helping understand this from your POV.
No problem. Oh - and if I disappear for the night, I'm not feeling well so I may bail off the computer in a bit.
I think that the definition should be defined by those on the conservative side who use it derogatorily. I am seeing it used as an insult when discussing President Obama. So, whatever that definition is.
Then, the ETA is just because I understand that portion of it and because I don't think that abortion is inherently something I understand to be a necessary component of a socialistic government.
Socialism, reduced to its simplest legal and practical expression, means the complete discarding of the institution of private property by transforming it into public property. This is one definition I found of socialism.
Ok here is my understanding of the issues. First socialism is a form of economic organization which is tied to the political form of government called communism. They are two different things (socialism and communism) but they are often linked together.
I don't know if you will find in the Bible the command for government NOT to take control. The Bible wasn't written to a government it was written to a people. Therefore, the commands you find in it aren't going to deal with what the government should or shouldn't do, it is going to deal with what the people should do (or not do). Although there are commands in the OT about how the people were to be governed so maybe that isn't entirely true.
The biggest problem that I have with socialism as a Christian is that it is based on an atheistic form of thought. This is played out by the government having control and being all powerful with no thought to God or his commands. In every case I can think of where socialism (and I would connect this with communism as I see them as two sides of one coin) has been the system of government, the government has gone on to mandate a manmade theology disregarding the true Theos. Therefore the state (or government) becomes god.
As a Christian I don't want someone else telling me that I have to teach certain things that I a) don't believe to be true and b) contradict my beliefs. I don't think that the government can truly have the best interests of "all" in mind. I think they will have the best interests of some. I think it is dangerous for the government to "own" all the means of production and I think it is counter productive to do away with competition. If you were to ask anyone who visited or lived in the post communist Soviet Union they could give you a laundry list of reasons why socialism doesn't work.
Christians are commanded to help the poor and needy and are given strong warnings for disobedience to these commands.
The command about not working/not eating is from 2 Thessalonians 3:10.
I think I have rambled about this and don't know if I have even answered your question. Sorry if that is the case, my brain is frazzled.
Oxford reminds me there is State socialism, National socialism, and plain socialism. [there is also international socialism which I didn't think pertains, but if it does it's here: site @ UK For all concerned we should agree on which of those we mean.
New Advent talks about it in religious context here.
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Tales from another broken home
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All through the New Testament, it is told that it is the church's responsibility to take care of the poor. Unfortunately, because of the government taking so much in taxes, giving in churches is not what it could be.
Do you really think this is the case? And if taxes were lowered, that people would give more to the churches? Do you have any empirical research to back up this opinion?
I think it has less to do with taxes and more to do with a myriad of other factors. And, I'm not entirely sure that giving to churches is down.
Like Rebecca said, we are advised by almost all religions to be charitable and take care of our own. But some people have no family. We (as a culture) no longer respect and care for our elders the way we used to do. I'd rather have a government program helping them, than rely on the iffy nature of charitable giving - which does tend to wax and wane with economic conditions and folks' personal financial situations.
Do you really think this is the case? And if taxes were lowered, that people would give more to the churches? Do you have any empirical research to back up this opinion?
I think it has less to do with taxes and more to do with a myriad of other factors. And, I'm not entirely sure that giving to churches is down.
giving in churches is WAY down, at least in the southern baptist convention. which is why my husband, along with hundreds of other employees of said convention lost their benefit packages this past year along with taking a pay cut of approximately 25%. and we lost all of our financial aid for his doctoral program. so yes, giving is down dramatically.
and high taxes definitely affects our tithe. we are instructed to tithe 10% pre-tax and simply put, it is difficult because we pay so much in taxes. if we were taxed less, we would be able to give gifts above and beyond that much moreso than we are able now.
Okay, Robin, what I think I am gathering is that there isn't so much biblically prohibiting governments from providing social support that some might consider socialistic, but that the concerns about socialism come from the concern that it would become a worship of the state rather than God. As in the state is the highest authority and has removed God as the highest authority. So, not so much from the policy, but from the concern about power and focus on government vs. God.
I think also, Rebecca, that people are concerned about the sanctity of life and how it fits in with socialism. End of life issues, who decides when to pull the plug, how far does that go and how slippery does the slope get with various disabilities and lifelong problems.
I think there is a high desire for personal responsibility, people taking care of themselves and helping to take care of others, trusting in God and giving freely etc. I read an article......where....Metro Voice that I picked up maybe? That talked about the govt replacing peoples need and desire for a church - that what we currently look to each other for we will start looking to the govt for.
That is my take on it, not my personal platform per say, as I don't know how I feel about much these days. I will say, that I do wonder if capitalism is even truly possible at the level we are talking about. The numbers are so enormous of people who need help, things that need to be done etc. We have all of these things in play....health issues, public services, peoples incredible want for more of everything material in this country, lack of stable families, programs that suck funding, a desire for the sanctity of life that outweighs the physical ability to care for it all.....I am just not sure the idea of capitalism can really exist on this grand scale, in our current mindset.
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wife to one, the love of my life
mama to 4, all incredibly gorgeous, smoochable and bright - taking my breath away everyday.
"Little things are indeed little, but to be faithful in little things is a great thing." - Mother Theresa
Little Sacka' Sweet
(thank you Rebecca, for shedding light on aperture!)
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