Spiritual DiscussionsThis is the place at AW for mamas to learn about all different religions and beliefs, to ask questions, to give answers- all done with respect! if you don't have anything nice to say here- don't say anything at all.
Robin, I always read and appreciate what you write.
This is what I was referring to.
Ok :blush: I must admit that I skimmed Ann's posts because of the Biblical content and I figured that I knew that already.
Her comment though was in reference to the mandate to the NT church. So if you are looking at a Biblical mandate for socialism or capitalism, this would seem to lean toward the side of capitalism but the reality of this quote taken in context of the Bible is that it is written to the Church not to the government and for that matter it was written to individuals within the church so people who would profess to be Christians.
The church was living communally by choice but also because of their society at the time. They were outcasts and therefore times were very hard for many. The quote comes out of the book of 2 Thessalonians and the believers of Thessalonica were under severe persucution. Some of the believers of the local church were taking advantage and not working (but living off the largese of other believers) and instead were creating division in the church.
Also in Ann's defense she was answering Rebecca's question not making a statement about any situation. Again I don't believe anyone is saying that there is anything wrong with public assistance. I know that we have been in the situtation of using it in the past and I am sure that there are others on this board who profess to be Christians who have had to use one type of assistance or another (from WIC, food stamps, medicaid, or something else). I find nothing distasteful or wrong with that. What I do find appalling is that there are some who use the system to keep from working. What also bothers me is that there are some who need more help to actually be able to better themselves and they are denied assisstance when that extra money for the short term would mean a better life down the road.
I don't think the system needs to be done away with because the reality is that the Church is not stepping up to the plate and taking care of its own but I do think the system needs some revamping. The reality is that if someone has no education the job prospects aren't great and if they find a job it may not provide a livable income. Even with a bachelor's degree if I had to go out tomorrow and find a job to support my family, I would be hard pressed to do so with an income that would put us over the level for most public assistance.
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Robin wife to one awesome guy for 19 years,
mama to four beautiful boys
Thanks for answering Robin - you are correct. It is a directive to the church but I think a good directive in general. If one is not willing to work, is it fair to everyone else who breaks their back working to try to make ends meet for the one not willing to work to get a free ride? Now I totally get the idea of single mamas who should NOT work while they have little ones but I think there are also some solutions for them. Work at home, job sharing, co-op childcare, sharing living with someone else in the same situation, etc. would be a great idea.
But the Bible tells us that if someone wasn't willing to work, they would not eat. It was a communal situation (voluntary) and if one just sucked off the rest, then it was quite detrimental to the health of the community. I have to say, I see mamas here busting their butts to make ends meet and to be able to put food on the table and I have tons of respect for them. I also know of mamas who do not have the ability to work (because of babies, health issues, etc.) who would do what they could if they could. I do not think that it is bad to support them.
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Ann
SAHM to 4 beautiful children Lauren ('90), Nicole ('92), Robert ('00) and Joanna ('02) and wife to Bob for 23 years.
I am wondering (and Ann and Robin, you are probably in good position to tell given your husbands occupations), what percentage of people there are out there that are truly able to work, but chose not to as they are actually able to live off public assistance?
I would certainly agree that those who are truly able to obtain and maintain employment, should and should not get a free pass, but those that I see in disability evaluations who have difficulties in their life, but are otherwise capable of working, are generally not receiving public assistance. Truth be told, I have no idea how they have made it so long without working, but dang if there isn't a bunch of people who aren't working, aren't receiving public help, and end up getting turned down for disability benefits.
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Jonathan
Louisburg Cider Mill
October 2009
"Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law?
Jesus said until him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And, the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments have all the law and the prophets."
I am wondering (and Ann and Robin, you are probably in good position to tell given your husbands occupations), what percentage of people there are out there that are truly able to work, but chose not to as they are actually able to live off public assistance?
I would certainly agree that those who are truly able to obtain and maintain employment, should and should not get a free pass, but those that I see in disability evaluations who have difficulties in their life, but are otherwise capable of working, are generally not receiving public assistance. Truth be told, I have no idea how they have made it so long without working, but dang if there isn't a bunch of people who aren't working, aren't receiving public help, and end up getting turned down for disability benefits.
Honestly, we have a large disabled congregation and most of them work. These are people who are severely handicapped either physically, mentally or both. In this economy it is much harder to get a job but generally, most people can do some form of work whether it be answering phones, assembly of products, computer work, childcare, etc. I think it is honestly a much lesser number of people who truly can not work than there are people who say they cannot work. But I absolutely do know that there are some who just cannot work for whatever reason and they should not be forced to work, so I'm certainly not painting with a wide brush, IMO.
Honestly, we have a large disabled congregation and most of them work. These are people who are severely handicapped either physically, mentally or both. In this economy it is much harder to get a job but generally, most people can do some form of work whether it be answering phones, assembly of products, computer work, childcare, etc. I think it is honestly a much lesser number of people who truly can not work than there are people who say they cannot work. But I absolutely do know that there are some who just cannot work for whatever reason and they should not be forced to work, so I'm certainly not painting with a wide brush, IMO.
I do not disagree with you. I see a similar pattern, but what I'm wondering is if you observe a group of people able to work who chose not to who are ACTUALLY living on government assistance.
I do not disagree with you. I see a similar pattern, but what I'm wondering is if you observe a group of people able to work who chose not to who are ACTUALLY living on government assistance.
I have. I've also seen those who should be on government assistance but are not. Then there are those who could be but fight it and instead work harder. Finally there are those who bust their arses but still need the extra boost from assistance. Our church has helped those in each of the category - except those who are taking advantage of the system. We don't make judgment calls immediately but instead get involved in their lives. If it's a family that truly needs help, they get all the help they need from us. If they need some encouragement or jobs, we'll try to help them. But being involved in their lives rather than just seeing them in an office or on a piece of paper makes a big difference in how we can help over what the government can do.
I am wondering (and Ann and Robin, you are probably in good position to tell given your husbands occupations), what percentage of people there are out there that are truly able to work, but chose not to as they are actually able to live off public assistance?
I would certainly agree that those who are truly able to obtain and maintain employment, should and should not get a free pass, but those that I see in disability evaluations who have difficulties in their life, but are otherwise capable of working, are generally not receiving public assistance. Truth be told, I have no idea how they have made it so long without working, but dang if there isn't a bunch of people who aren't working, aren't receiving public help, and end up getting turned down for disability benefits.
Percentage wise I would say I have no idea. Our experience has been much the same as Ann's when dealing with those in need. I do remember a few incidents when I was growing up of people who would not work (mostly due to alcohol addiction and would not get help). In one case we continued to help the family, because the father was a drunk who would work when he could stay sober but it never lasted very long. The mother was simply not capable of getting or keeping a regular job (mentally). So she would do odd jobs for people (cleaning and the like) for a litte extra money and the church helped with a home (there's burned down one night while the father was drunk) and then helped with electricity bills and food and clothes for the family.
In other cases what we generally saw is that people who tried to take advantage of the system of help that we had set up at the church generally did not attend. In one area we set up a general fund from local churches, if a benevelonce case came into any of the area churches that was not one of their members then they could refer them to the not profit that we set up. This organization was set up to help with referrals for different help (jobs, housing, food stamps and such). They were also set up to help with either food certificates and certificates for gas. What was prompted this was that people would call all the area churches with the same story asking for help. Usually the amount they were asking for was met more than one time and then at ministerial meetings someone would share this story and they would find out that the person had hit several of the churches. Wash, rinse, repeat the next month all over. Once the not profit was set up, this problem was taken care of. They had to fill out certain paperwork and agree to certain terms. For example if they came in 2 or 3 times without money for electricity then we would go through budgeting classes with them, for some we refered to job training, others we found rental assistance from a local business man who rehabed houses. Lots of different ideas, but the point was to get them on their feet to be able to provide for their own families.
Now if someone in our congregation came to us then we had a fund we could help them with but these were people we had a relationship with over a period of time.
I know that there have been times when I have been asked to sign off on unemployment forms when the business I was working for wasn't hiring. The people didn't want to leave an app they just wanted a siggy on a form to show that they have spoken to so many people about a job. Oh and they didn't produce the form until after they found our you weren't hiring. From the looks everytime that happened it was someone who was "able bodied".
When we lived in Alabama we actually had a drug addict come to the church and then the house (parsonage) to ask for help. He told the same story to me (twice) and then to one other church member. He didn't even remember telling me (or he denied it at least) that his grandmother had died and that I had given him money.
It is hard because who wants to be the judge and jury on who should/could work and can't/won't. But are those that do abuse the sytstem I would say definitely yes, how many, I have no freaking idea. If it is less than 10% is that acceptable as long at 90% are being helped? I don't know.
It is hard position to be in as a church to not be able to help everyone who comes to you asking, but the reality unless they are members of our congregation or referred by a member we have no idea what there background is and we have to be stewards of our resources too. I couldn't tell you the number of calls we get once mailers go out about the new church (has happened in all our plants) asking for help. It is embarrasing. Especially when dh asks them where they attend church and if they have asked their home church for help. That is why we are ALWAYS involved with a local interchurch benevelence ministry.
It is frustrating because we all know people that need help and yet seem to have to fight for every dime they get. Yet even here we will have people come on occassion and ask for help, seriously what kind of person gets on the internet and comes to a message board and asks for help when they don't know the people, they are the same ones that have already burned bridges at all their local churches.
Also I would imagine that if someone is trying to get a disability eval they 99.99% of the time need it. So I would imagine that you aren't going see a bunch of people who are trying to use the system. IMO people who want a free pass are going the path of least resistence, call churches or other organizations who aren't going to screen them, they aren't going to bother with something like disability. KWIM?
giving in churches is WAY down, at least in the southern baptist convention. which is why my husband, along with hundreds of other employees of said convention lost their benefit packages this past year along with taking a pay cut of approximately 25%. and we lost all of our financial aid for his doctoral program. so yes, giving is down dramatically.
and high taxes definitely affects our tithe. we are instructed to tithe 10% pre-tax and simply put, it is difficult because we pay so much in taxes. if we were taxed less, we would be able to give gifts above and beyond that much moreso than we are able now.
Good post. I appreciate it.
Many thanks to ur post. I love it.
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