Spiritual DiscussionsThis is the place at AW for mamas to learn about all different religions and beliefs, to ask questions, to give answers- all done with respect! if you don't have anything nice to say here- don't say anything at all.
socialism is anti-christian? Now, I realize that no one has explicitly said it just like that, but I am having a difficult time understanding why so many conservative Christians have a problem with socialism because it would seem to me that Jesus was all about taking care of those around you?
Now, I'm not asking this out of the spirit of debate. I am asking this out of the spirit of understanding, so I'm happy with pms if people would rather not have this as a debate.
But, I am off for a run and I will want to read everything and try to understand from your perspective before I ask more questions (which, I will try to keep from a perspective of seeking understanding).
Thanks!
ETA: don't include abortion. I can understand how many conservative Christians would be anti-abortion and the conservative political side is anti-abortion. Besides, that isn't really part of socialism. So, I want your education of me in this regard to eliminate the abortion issue. Thanks!
Good question. As a Christian who teaches at a Christian school (Catholic on both accounts) I risk my teaching position by supporting and having voted for Obama. My reasons for voting for him were exactly because he was proposing and seemed to be the best choice from my own personal understanding, of taking care of those who are "the least of these"....the poor, those without health care, our youth/schools, volunteering.....on and on and on.....basically all things that I equate with my own understanding of the example Jesus Christ himself set while he was walking the earth as portrayed via the Bible and also for us Catholics, through tradition and church teaching.
Yes, the abortion issue is probably at the base of what I said above regarding my job and all. I have even pointed out that no president has overturned Row/Wade/abortion.....democrat or republican.
Watching the Presidents talk to the school children was a nightmare at my school. Also at our local public schools.....really handled in a way that inferred that the public schools supported one political party...and by extension one religion, IMHO. I'm still steamed about that one. lol
Anyway, I don't have any answer for you other than our nation is soooo divided and people are being manipulated like puppets in many cases. Case in point this current elected official who got away with screaming at the president in the once-honored and revered halls of our government. I don't know when the line will be drawn.....how far will people go? How divided will we become? Do we even think for ourselves anymore?
I have zero answers but a lot of questions and a lot of sadness at what I see happening in our country. Anger, division, hatred, suspicion.......nothing like the Jesus Christ I worship and believe in.
Michelle, my understanding of Catholicism is that most Catholics have traditionally been Catholic, but have been moving to the right because of the abortions stance. As in if abortion was removed, they would be Democrats due to religious ideals.
__________________
Jonathan
Louisburg Cider Mill
October 2009
"Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law?
Jesus said until him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And, the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments have all the law and the prophets."
This is the guy that gets explored in Stealing Jesus, which is all about the break between some Christians, and fundamentalist Christians, in the early part of the century, and how it plays out in America now.
Bruce Bawer is the author of Stealing Jesus, and he's a thoughtful and interesting writer. He moved to Europe to marry his long-time boyfriend. He writes, freelance, I think, articles that get published in the New York Times.
The one that was most memorable was breaking down which countries are actually growing economically, versus the countries one thinks are wealthy. Portugal was more measurably wealthy, by virtue of growth- people eating lunches at restaurants, than Sweden (?Norway?) which thought it was wealthy, but everyone had to take their lunch to work. He is a fairly unconventional thinker, and a very good researcher, in other words.
I grew up fundamentalist, and had no idea of the ideological underpinnings of the whole thing, or that other options were possible.
giving in churches is WAY down, at least in the southern baptist convention. which is why my husband, along with hundreds of other employees of said convention lost their benefit packages this past year along with taking a pay cut of approximately 25%. and we lost all of our financial aid for his doctoral program. so yes, giving is down dramatically.
and high taxes definitely affects our tithe. we are instructed to tithe 10% pre-tax and simply put, it is difficult because we pay so much in taxes. if we were taxed less, we would be able to give gifts above and beyond that much moreso than we are able now.
Or buy bigger tv's for some.
In this scenario, giving in churches is way down because taxes are way up in the past year? It seems more reliant on the state of the economy.
I guess that's why it doesn't work out so well for the churches to be the source of food for the hungry. THere's only food for the hungry when the economy is booming.
I also guess I didn't deserve those food stamps the year I found myself single with a tiny baby. I wasn't working.
JMO, but I really don't think people would significantly increase giving at all if their taxes were lowered. I just don't see it happening IRL at.all. I think Kat is right: bigger TVs or supa-cute jeans.
In this scenario, giving in churches is way down because taxes are way up in the past year? It seems more reliant on the state of the economy.
I guess that's why it doesn't work out so well for the churches to be the source of food for the hungry. THere's only food for the hungry when the economy is booming.
I also guess I didn't deserve those food stamps the year I found myself single with a tiny baby. I wasn't working.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunflower_Momma
JMO, but I really don't think people would significantly increase giving at all if their taxes were lowered. I just don't see it happening IRL at.all. I think Kat is right: bigger TVs or supa-cute jeans.
I was up in the middle of the night with 2 sick children so I may be loopy this morning/afternoon.
Kat, I didn't see anyone say that someone shouldn't use social services (I even went back to reread the thread). What I see some on this thread as saying (myself and Ann and probably Jen at least) is that we don't believe that forced socialism from a governmental level is supported from a biblical standpoint. And that we feel like the responsibility for each person should come in the order of personal, familial, church/religion or even local and last governmental.
To me I think that if things were truly handled in this manner that there would be more than enough for everyone. If during times of hardship we banded together first to make sure that we do everything on a personal level, then within our family units (and this would be truly effective if we had stronger extended family units), at this point if there is still a need then the church/local community could step in and finally the use of governmental aid for those cases that still need help.
To the point of giving/taxes, I couldn't find a direct correlation or table showing a correlation but I would image that there is one some where. I did find two articles that I thought were interesting. In the first article they argue that changes in the tax code (increasing taxes or decreasing deductions for charitable giving) do have an effect on chartible giving. But I thought this was the most telling quote "Changes in personal income and wealth have a greater impact on giving than do tax rate changes." Which to me makes total sense. We give a percentage to the church and while the percentage wouldn't change the amount would based on our income. Also even though we are making more money this year we are actually are giving less overall because while we give a flat 10% to the local church we are giving less from the amount above 10% that we give to other charities. So while we may be giving a larger overall $ amount I would guess than our overall percentage has gone down (I won't actually have the numbers on this until after the first of the year so I am sort of guessing here).
We are in the business of fund raising and let me tell you it has been a hellish year. In the past we have been able to "count" on certain people for certain gifts and this year they have not been there or the gifts have been greatly reduced.
I think that alot of the fund raising environment ties to less disposable income for people and also more people actually raising funds for different organizations. How many times a week do you get something in the mail or get a phone call or a knock on the door asking you to buy or donate to a specific cause? I know for us it probably comes out to be 4-5 times a week we are solicited for some cause and that is only in our home and doesn't include times when we are asked to give when we are out and about.
Another thing I found interesting in this article is that the people who give the highest percentage are those that are self-employed which I awesome means they are in one of the highest tax brackets. That in it self would mean that they defy the logic that more taxes means less giving unless they are actully showing a loss in income.
I wonder though, from my understanding tithing used to be that you tithed a certain percentage of your income. To me that seems just like taxes, only one is forced upon by the church and the other is forced upon by the government. I do realize that tithing is not as strictly followed as it once was. Tithing, depending on your church, is no longer "required" but it once was. I had a short conversation about this with my old priest when I was attending church.
It seems to me that a lot of people are talking about taxes and then of giving because one wants to and this came to mind.
What I see some on this thread as saying (myself and Ann and probably Jen at least) is that we don't believe that forced socialism from a governmental level is supported from a biblical standpoint.
I understand this, but I'd also posit the opposite: I don't see that "socialism" is prohibited or discouraged from a biblical standpoint. I do not see the encouragement/endorsement for capitalism in the bible.
I understand this, but I'd also posit the opposite: I don't see that "socialism" is prohibited or discouraged from a biblical standpoint. I do not see the encouragement/endorsement for capitalism in the bible.
That is true and that is why in one of my original posts I said "I don't know if you will find in the Bible the command for government NOT to take control. The Bible wasn't written to a government it was written to a people. Therefore, the commands you find in it aren't going to deal with what the government should or shouldn't do, it is going to deal with what the people should do (or not do). Although there are commands in the OT about how the people were to be governed so maybe that isn't entirely true."
I think if you look at the OT you will see a Theocracy with some elements of what we would consider socialism. I think if you examine the early church you will see that they lived in community and again you could argue that there were some socialist elements. But for both of these examples it was only commanded of those that wanted to live under the protection of (1) the theocracy/nation state of Israel or (2) live in community with the local church. And there is at least one example of the local church that makes it clear that the idea of living communally was totally voluntary and not a requirement of the church or scripture.
Actually that part of my quote was directed at Kat and her assertion about public assistance, because I don't feel like any of us where in any way making a statement about accepting public assistance being wrong.
From a Christians point of view, it is my responsibility as a member of a local congregation to make sure that others within the congregation are taken care of and I think the Christian church has fallen way short of that imperative. Many times we don't take responsibility for our members because we know they can receive certain things from the government. That is completely wrong on the part of the church.
As to the issue of a tithe or tithing, (speaking from only my background) this is not something that is commanded from our church or any group that we have been affliated with. We don't look at people's income and then say we expect a check for this amount at the end of the year. We teach the Biblical principles of both tithing and giving and it is each persons responsibility for that decision.
Oh and would you all please forgive all the glaring typos in my last post, really shouldn't have posted before the coffee kicked in .
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