Spiritual DiscussionsThis is the place at AW for mamas to learn about all different religions and beliefs, to ask questions, to give answers- all done with respect! if you don't have anything nice to say here- don't say anything at all.
Okay, Talitha, so I'm hearing from you much as what Robin was saying: not so much that Socialism is contrary to biblical teachings, but that which goes with it including devaluation of the place of religion and a turning away from church and toward government. So, it is sounding as if this is modern interpretation and teaching from the church authorities. Which is fine. Please, no one hear that as minimizing what is being taught just because it does not sound as if there is a strong message that came from the bible.
I think I am understanding more.
I so much appreciate the ability to ask these questions in such a manner as to gain understanding rather than debate.
And, Talitha, mama, I keep thinking about how I need to hang out! Shoot every day I'm thinking that I need to call.
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Jonathan
Louisburg Cider Mill
October 2009
"Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law?
Jesus said until him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And, the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments have all the law and the prophets."
One concern I recently raised to a pastor who was speaking out against "socialism" (for similar reasons as above) was: What do you do in an area where people can't be helped by the church?
As a Christian, I do believe it is my responsibility, both personally and through the church, to help those around me. We strive for it in our family in many different ways, and are always looking to give more. We challenged our church to be giving more, both financially and in other ways in their communities.
However, our church was small. The total church population in the Bay Area is very small. (it's something like 4% of the total population attends church on a regular basis). It's really hard for the church at that size to reach all of the people who have needs. Even with my concerted effort, the number of people we directly helped in 5 years there wasn't huge.
It seems easier to come from a more churched area (like this pastor I was talking to) and say that the church needs to be caring for people, not the government, than from an area where the church has little influence.
Anyway, his answer was that there are spheres of influence. First, the family should take care of its own. Then, the church should step in. Only then should the government be used to provide for people. I think that's probably true, but still didn't really answer my question/dilemma.
So, where I come to contemplation is--I don't want to fight against social programs as a Christian. I think they serve a purpose. But I do see the need to call Christians out of complacency, out of thinking only of ourselves and our retirement, and reform how our churches interact with the poor and needy in our communities. If that happens, then my hope would be that the need for social programs would decline.
About tithing in the church: I do know that the trend is downward for tithing. But I'm not sure it's related to taxes. The most recent info I could find, from Barna group, which released the statistics, was from 2007. Here's a write-up: The Barna Group - New Study Shows Trends in Tithing and Donating Maybe someone more skilled with the google can do more. But it seems that tithing has been going down for years, not just recently.
Anyway, his answer was that there are spheres of influence. First, the family should take care of its own. Then, the church should step in. Only then should the government be used to provide for people. I think that's probably true, but still didn't really answer my question/dilemma.
So, where I come to contemplation is--I don't want to fight against social programs as a Christian. I think they serve a purpose. But I do see the need to call Christians out of complacency, out of thinking only of ourselves and our retirement, and reform how our churches interact with the poor and needy in our communities. If that happens, then my hope would be that the need for social programs would decline.
Without going for debate, this is sort of how I feel. I do believe that it is first the family (well, I'll go for first the self, then the family), then the church, and then the government, but I do like the idea of having the government as a safety net for those who don't have the safety of the first three options.
me too on the getting together part! We need to try to make it happen soon. I have my scheduled pretty well lined out now for the next few weeks and it is not so up in the air anymore.
If you look at the life of Jesus, he lived very much off the hospitality of others (not that he would have gone hungry without.....) and he does not address a lot of political issues. He seems to hold the stance that you live in the land as you need to and live in your heart as to God, working to play that out in your everyday actions too. Pay unto Ceasar what is Ceasars and all that. He was in the middle of major political turmoil and drama and he did not fight against any of it, he just reached out one person at a time, on a personal level.
We seem to be in this unique position of wanting and having it all. We want long and healthy lives for every person, to be cared for in an above average manner, while being able to grow wealth and also enjoy leisure time. In the past, certain things would come into play that would 'help' some of these issues along so they maybe did not become major 'issues'. Survival of the fittest and all that. The Industrial Revolution, part of the reason the economy flourished was because labor was cheap and grueling and dangerous and if you were a 'have not' then that was your lot in life, you fought your way out of it, learned to live in it, or you died.
Don't know if that makes any sense - sort of random thought process here tonight.
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wife to one, the love of my life
mama to 4, all incredibly gorgeous, smoochable and bright - taking my breath away everyday.
"Little things are indeed little, but to be faithful in little things is a great thing." - Mother Theresa
Little Sacka' Sweet
(thank you Rebecca, for shedding light on aperture!)
I once said (on a conservative Christian board) that I thought Jesus would be all for true socialism and it was not a popular idea, to say the least.
I think a lot of people confuse socialism with communism. I also think that the ideals of socialism are very different than the way it has actually played out.
But true socialism, the utopian sort, would be voluntary rather than imposed by a government.
I also found during this last election that many Christians consider being a democrat anti-Christian. So forget socialism...
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~Dannielle
Momma to Isabelle (8/95) and Mason (1/01)
See Danielle - I don't see Scripture supporting socialism at all and in fact has some ideas that are very against that. I see private ownership encouraged, I see charity but not full sharing except in the early church - but it was not a practice that was continued past the very early church. I DO see helping others, leaving extra for the poor, etc. but Jesus supporting socialism? Nope - I don't see any evidence of that anywhere in Scripture.
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Ann
SAHM to 4 beautiful children Lauren ('90), Nicole ('92), Robert ('00) and Joanna ('02) and wife to Bob for 23 years.
That's ok, Ann. We don't have to agree. I'm fine with that. I completely respect your opinion on this and other matters.
I suppose the charity you feel should come from the church as an establishment I see as something that should come from the wider definition of church (which is, imo, scripturally supported): the people of God.
I think, perhaps, we're envisioning a different thing when we think socialism. I do think that my vision is most definitely supported by the Bible as well as emulated by Christ himself.
Now, granted, there's a big problem there because not everyone considers themselves, or would be considered by another man's definition, one of God's people.
But in my perfect, imaginary world it works as a voluntary act of love. Much more of a hippie commune thing than the USSR.
We have never in this world had a socialist goverment that was not corrupt and was communally run by the people it serves. But I can't help but think it would be a beautiful thing, and quite Christian in nature, if humanity evolved to the point where it were possible.
There is a big difference between voluntarily giving your goods/wealth to others and the government commanding it.
And I agree that it is the church as a whole who should be giving - through the local church. Local churches are set up uniquely to monitor and follow up the charity as opposed to a large corporation or government. I see it work out daily in our own church and I see it being successful.
i think jesus was more of a communist, and the book of acts certainly promotes communisim. many bruderhof, etc. communities still live as was extolled in that book.
and ann, we certainly did see socialist/(imo communist) community in more than just the early church. you could say america was founded, quite literally founded, at plymouth rock, upon just that social contract, like it or not.
Christian communism is a form of religious communism based on Christianity. It is a theological and political theory based upon the view that the teachings of Jesus Christ compel Christians to support communism as the ideal social system. Although there is no universal agreement on the exact date when Christian communism was founded, many Christian communists assert that evidence from the Bible suggests that the first Christians, including the Apostles, created their own small communist society in the years following Jesus' death and resurrection. As such, many advocates of Christian communism argue that it was taught by Jesus and practiced by the Apostles themselves.
Christian communism can be seen as a radical form of Christian socialism. Christian communists may or may not agree with various parts of Marxism. They certainly do not agree with the atheistic views often held up as representative of most Marxists, but do agree with at least some of the economic aspects of Marxist theory, such as the idea that capitalism exploits the working class by extracting surplus value from the workers in the form of profits. Christian communists also share some of the political goals of Marxists, for example replacing capitalism with socialism, which should in turn be followed by communism at a later point in the future. However, Christian communists sometimes disagree with Marxists (and particularly with Leninists) on the way a socialist or communist society should be organized. In general, Christian communism evolved independently of Marxism, and most Christian communists share the conclusions but not the underlying premises of Marxist communists.
History
In general, the history of communism as a political movement can be divided into two periods: early (pre-Marxist) and contemporary (Marxist and post-Marxist) communism. In the early period, communism may have played a major role in everyday Christianity.
Early Christian Communism
Christian communists trace the origins of their practice to the New Testament book Acts of the Apostles at chapter 2 and verses 42, 44, and 45:
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.43 Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things in common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. (King James Version)
The theme is reiterated in Acts 4:32-37:
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. 36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet. (King James Version)
Plymouth Colony
The Plymouth Colony was established by Separatist Pilgrims who had travelled from Europe in order to flee religious persecution and establish a religious community separate from the Church of England. The social and legal systems of the colony were tied to their religious beliefs as well as English Common Law. The presence of secular planters ("The Strangers") hired by the London merchant investors who funded their venture led to tension and factionalization in the fledgling settlement, especially because of the policies of land use and profit-sharing, but also in the way each group viewed workdays and holidays.
In this primarily religious-based community, the communist-like principle used by the "primitive" Christian Church as described in the Acts of the Apostles ("all things be held in common") was used as a basis for the contract agreed upon by the venture and its investors. This common ownership was more akin to what we now think of as a privately held corporation as the common ownership of property and profits was insured by the issuing of stock to the settlers and investors which would be paid out from the division of the common property and profits after seven years:
it didn't work so well but it was certainly seen as the christian ideal and was tried for that reason.
Christian communists hold the Biblical verses in Acts 2 and 4 as evidence that the first Christians lived in a communist society. But, in addition, they also cite numerous other Biblical passages which, in their view, support the idea that communism is the most ethical social system and that it is the closest humans can come to living in accordance with God's will. The most often quoted of these Biblical citations are taken from the three synoptic Gospels, which describe the life and ministry of Jesus.
In the Gospel of Luke (1:49-53), Mary delivered the following description of the works of God:
49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. 51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. 53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
One of Jesus' most famous remarks regarding the wealthy can be found in Matthew 19:16-24 (the same event is also described in Mark 10:17-25 and Luke 18:18-25, and the metaphor of a camel going through the eye of a needle is common to both Matthew and Luke).
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why do you ask me about what is good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
However, Jesus Christ goes on to say that what is impossible with men is not impossible with God, implying that the grace of God can save a rich man. See Matthew 19:25-26, Mark 10:26-27 and Luke 18:26-27. For example, Matthew 19:25-26 says:
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Jesus also described "money changers" (i.e. those engaged in currency exchange) as "thieves" and chased them out of the Temple in Jerusalem. This is described in Matthew 21:12-14, Mark 11:15, and John 2:14-16. The text in Matthew reads as follows:
12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. 14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.
The phrase "love thy neighbor", repeatedly spoken by Jesus, is rather well known. Christian communists point out that Jesus considered this to be the second most important of all moral obligations, after loving God. Thus, they argue, a Christian society should be based first and foremost on these two commandments, and it should uphold them even more than it upholds such things as family values. The relevant Biblical verses are Mark 12:28-31:
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord; 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Finally, Jesus gave an account of the Last Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46, in which he identifies himself with the hungry, the poor and the sick, and states that good or evil done upon "the least of [God's] brethren" will be counted as good or evil done upon God himself. It is argued that Jesus is saying that nations, rather than individuals, would be judged according to the characteristics of their societies. If that is the case, this could imply that political and economic systems were being heavily critiqued as well:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory; 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats; 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 For I was hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in; 36 Naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.
In addition, communist references can be found in Leviticus 25:35-38: "If one [...] becomes poor [...] help him [...] so he can continue to live among you. Do not take interest of any kind from him, but fear your God [...] You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God." and Acts 4:32-35, "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had [...] there were no needy persons among them [...] the money [...] was distributed to anyone as he had need." As well as Acts 2:42-47, "They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching [...] to the breaking of bread [...] everyone was filled with awe [...] all the believers were together and had everything in common [...] they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they [...] ate together with glad and sincere hearts [...] "
The biggest problem that I have with socialism as a Christian is that it is based on an atheistic form of thought. This is played out by the government having control and being all powerful with no thought to God or his commands. In every case I can think of where socialism (and I would connect this with communism as I see them as two sides of one coin) has been the system of government, the government has gone on to mandate a manmade theology disregarding the true Theos. Therefore the state (or government) becomes god.
while modern socialism has been largely secular/atheistic, that is a relatively new thing. communism/socialism were originally based on a reflection of god's laws--namely, to love thy neighbor as thyself.
Quote:
Contemporary Christian communism
At the time when Marxism first emerged on the political scene, the concept of secular or atheistic communism did not yet exist. All communism was rooted in religious principles. During the mid-to-late 1840s, the largest organization espousing communist ideas in Europe was the League of the Just, whose motto was "All Men are Brothers" and whose aim was to establish a new society "based on the ideals of love of one's neighbor, equality and justice". Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels joined the League of the Just in 1847. Under their influence, the organization became secular and atheistic and changed its name to the Communist League. The League invited Marx and Engels to write a programmatic document that would express communist principles, and they obliged, producing the Communist Manifesto.
The Manifesto has had an enormous influence on the communist movement ever since. It has also been one of the founding documents of the secular communist tradition
I'm not up for long posts right now (still not feeling well) but every one of the Scriptures that I looked at in this post were taken out of context or completely wrongly interpreted.
wow, i'm not sure how one can be so sure of how biblical interpretation is wrong or right, given a reasonable conversation. remember, pride goeth before a fall.
I'm not up for long posts right now (still not feeling well) but every one of the Scriptures that I looked at in this post were taken out of context or completely wrongly interpreted.
That's interesting. I have to hand about three to five bibles and they all are different enough versions that even very basic things like John 3:16 is phrased differently. I would never EVER be confident enough to say that one specific bible was the right one and every single other version was wrong. Given the known distortions with the franks not liking the Pope and that war, the English Church, I think the celtic-germanic people were involved but I can't remember if they happened before or after the frankish thing; the one guy who translated the Bible into Latin, Caesar . . . Knowing that what I know for history is the least of what happened. I couldn't ever make that judgement.
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