spiritual discussionsThis is the place at AW for mamas to learn about all different religions and beliefs, to ask questions, to give answers- all done with respect! if you don't have anything nice to say here- don't say anything at all.
Do Jews think that Christianity is repugnant?
This question comes from a comment made on the long thread about California legalizing gay marriages.
Am I allowed to link to other threads here? If not - will a moderator please tell me?
I had a nasty experience once when I first got on the Internet.
I somehow got in a Jewish chat room and was very shocked at how vehemently everyone was speaking about Jesus and Christians.
This was like 12 years ago but I remember Jesus being called "stick-boy" and other names I can't recall. Basically it seemed they all thought Christians were stupid and stealing their God.
That is the only experience I have had. The only Jewish person I have met in real life is my midwife, and she is very nice.
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Sarah-
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I know and am related to a number of Jewish people, Jewish either by culture, religion or both and none of them feel the bitterness that sarahd expresses.
I don't think it can be generalized, that there is one way that Jews feel, it is kind of like any other issue - a larger people group made up of individual thoughts and emotions.
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First of all I did not say "I find Christians repugnant", I said I find her religion's(meaning her specific branch from which she is speaking) view and dismissal of Old Testament laws to be repugnant because the choosing seems arbitary to me. Her reasons of different laws exists no where in the old testament and makes no sense to me, as a jew who does not believe in the new testament. By this I am refering to her mention of the levels of laws such as moral versus priestly. I asked her to explain to me where her religion supports picking and choosing the different laws when they all have the same weight in the Hebrew bible. No where did I say all jews find all christians repugnant, in fact I didn't say any person was at all. Nor did I say I find christianity repugnant...just specifically this particular viewpoint of arbitrary dismissal within *her* church as that is the example she gave. Don't put words in my post that don't exist. I am not bitter...just curious about the difference in the theology that makes this work. How you get from laws that apply only to jews in entering the holy land to some laws that apply to christians. That is all...and her explanation was defensive and not helpful. Granted her nerves were probably shot from the discussion about homosexuality, however that is neither here nor there. As welll, I should have taken Nancy's approach and moved the question here. But I didn't.
Second...Jews do not think about or discuss christians. We do not participate in antichristian discussions. We are not upset that christians are 'stealing our God'(what does that mean anyway??)...at least no jew I know is...and I belong to a large congregation with 1000 families. Not only are we not upset, that is not a belief we hold nor a discussion we have. Jesus and Christians are not part of our liturgy nor sermons. We make no reference positive or negative as a religious group, christians are in fact irrelevant to judaism and typically only come up in regards to interfaith services, etc when planning. Do not assume jews think alike because we are a dynamic group with individuals just as christianity is. We, just as in christianity, have levels of observance and levels of fundamentalism as well as fanatics regarding religion. Ask 10 jews the same question you will get 10 different answers just as with any group of people. In that regard...yes there may be people who have expressed hatred toward other groups of people, including Christians, but jews as a whole? absolutely NOT!!! This is no different than lumping any group together.
It is the twisting of words in a post that can add to antisemitism...as well as lumping all jews together with a post titled "what do jews think about christians." You have got to be kidding me??? I asked a legitimate question about how something I believe in and take as inspired by God can be rearranged and picked over allowing another group to use some and leave some behind. Funny how that turns into "jews hate christians."
Done here.
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SARAH
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I don't think it can be generalized, that there is one way that Jews feel, it is kind of like any other issue - a larger people group made up of individual thoughts and emotions.
Yes, true! Always a good point!
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Originally Posted by Sarahd
First of all I did not say "I find Christians repugnant", I said I find her religion's(meaning her specific branch from which she is speaking) view and dismissal of Old Testament laws to be repugnant because the choosing seems arbitary to me.
OK. But "her religion" is Christianity. I don't think anywhere in that conversation did she state that she is a certain type of Christian. I have no clue what her specific denomination is. So when I read that you felt that her religion is repugnant, it sounded to me that you were saying Christianity is repugnant. And, yes, I know that it was you and not an official Jewish teaching or anything. So that's what I asked how Jews feel, not what the Jewish faith teaches. I am aware of what the faith teaches, but more often than not real people have a greater impact than teachings.
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Do not assume jews think alike because we are a dynamic group with individuals just as christianity is.
Of course. I was not assuming that. I am well aware of the different "levels" of Judaism. It was just a general question to get general answers. It's no different than asking "How do Christians feel about XYZ." I think it would be silly to expect someone to start a thousand different threads on it. One would say "What do observant Catholics feel?" One would say "What do liberal Episcopalians feel?" and on and on like that. Sometimes it's OK to start with a general question. It's not an accusation.
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Funny how that turns into "jews hate christians."
That most definitely didn't happen. I do not at all believe that jews hate christians. I do, from your posts, believe that you have issues with at least some Christians. You seem very defensive. I was just asking a question about something I didn't understand.
Nancy, I can't even believe you asked that question - with those words.
I'm absolutely blown away and surprised and by you with this one.
what do Jews think of Christians? Um = lets ask each one individually shall we and find out? Its like asking what do Christians think of Muslims? Could you answer that for your entire religion? Or would it have to be broken down into what do Lutherans/Catholics/Baptists etc etc think of Muslims? and even then is it a fair question that could actually be answered?
Or do we go further into what do black people think of White people? What do straight people think of gay people? What do old people think of young people? What do rich people think of poor people? Do you get how the question can't be answered???
Come on - I like you - and have always enjoyed your posts, but this isn't even worth attempting to answer. Its not an accusation - but its an unanswerable question and you're bright enough that you know that so even after reading your response to Sarah I'm not sure why you honestly asked it.
For what its worth - my whole family are Jews (all married to Christians lol) and I am a messianic jew, a Jewish Christ follower. I am a Christian.
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If I can offer my interpretation of Nancy's question--I read it not so much as what do the many individuals who are Jews think of the many individuals who are Christians. I read it (thought I'll admit the wording doesn't say this) as what does Judaism think of Christianity, which is largely what Sarah addressed here very well, and which I think is an interesting question.
From the Jewish side, the question might not make as much sense as it does from the Christian side, gathering from what I read in Sarah's post. That is, Christianity in many ways builds on Judaism so that Judaism, not as a religion as much perhaps as a history, is something that Christians perhaps think about more than Jews would think about the religion that departed from Judaism, if that makes sense.
I think one thing we've learned from recent discussions is the wide range of Judaism that some might not have considered compared to the wide range of Christianity. For example, I know more Jewish lesbians than Christian lesbians, but lesbians are entirely out of the range of Rivka's community, as we learned. For me, that has been very valuable--I didn't know about ultra-orthodox Judaism at all. I think one can assume that all individuals will have different takes on whatever, but it's been interesting to learn about the understandings of various groups of Jews and Christians, for me at least.
ETA: Oops. I didn't read Nancy's response to Sarah really well. I'm wrong.
When I read Sarah's post originally, I didn't get any sense that she was calling Christians or Christianity repugnant. My sense was that she found the picking and choosing of what to believe from the Old Testament offensive, when the Old Testament is meant to be taken as a whole, not as a smorgasbord where people get to pick and choose what appeals to them today.
But I say that as a lapsed UU-current atheist, so please take my interpretations of what I read with a grain of salt.
I have to say that I have PM'd Sarah with religious questions and she has always been kind and helpful to me.
I absolutely believe that to be true!
I am so sorry. I did not mean to offend. Truly. And I am heartbroken that I did.
I specifically DIDN'T ask "What does Judaism believe about Christianity" because I was interested in individuals. I would not be offended if the question said "How do Christians feel about Jews?" I think that could be an interesting discussion about different responses. I could say "Christians who believe what I do feel this way." It wouldn't be just about me, but about a group of people who believe what I believe.
But, in hindsight, I should have asked what I really wanted to know - What (if anything) does Judaism believe about Christianity? But, for some reason, I got the sense that to ask that question would be lumping people people together more than the way I asked it. Clearly I was wrong. I am so sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hana
From the Jewish side, the question might not make as much sense as it does from the Christian side, gathering from what I read in Sarah's post. That is, Christianity in many ways builds on Judaism so that Judaism, not as a religion as much perhaps as a history, is something that Christians perhaps think about more than Jews would think about the religion that departed from Judaism, if that makes sense.
Yes! We (Christians as I am familiar) are constantly wondering about and striving to learn about Judaism because we would not exist without it! It's VERY important to us/me!
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Originally Posted by mamaxt
When I read Sarah's post originally, I didn't get any sense that she was calling Christians or Christianity repugnant.
As if often the case, I guess it's all about interpretation. When she said "I find your religion repugnant", that sounded to me like she was talking about a religion, specifically Christianity, and not just some practices of some Christians.
I am very sorry. I truly asked the question out of a desire to learn. I never actually felt that Jews hate Christians or anything of the sort. I did want to know if I missed something,though, since when I read Sarah's original post, it was offensive and hurtful to me. But, again, it was MY interpretation of her post. I do not think that she meant to hurt me. I am sure of it.
I think a lot of it has to do with where and how this conversation started. I don't think we can have the "gay talk" without getting heated and hurtful here. I am hoping that when my daughter logs in here in 30 years, things will be different.
Please forgive me. I am so sad that my questions brought pain.
When she said "I find your religion repugnant", that sounded to me like she was talking about a religion, specifically Christianity, and not just some practices of some Christians.
but that is not what she said
what she said was
Quote:
As a practicing jew, I find your religion's view and dismissal of certain laws of the bible to be repugnant
That does not mean she found your religion repugnant - she said SHE believes that she finds the religion's view and dismissal of certain laws of the bible to be repugnant. Obviously, that can also go in a million directions.
One Orthodox Jew might find secular jews circumcizing or not keeping kosher repugnant. Others may feel it is their personal decision to make with their maker.
A pious Catholic might find it repugnant that other Christians don't take communion or believe communion is symbolic and not actually the blood and body of Christ. Any person may find any other persons belief system repugnant, or even 'spooky' as we have heard in the past (laughing at myself here to those) - but we cannot ever generalize any group. NEVER. I That is what causes problems.
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Originally Posted by grisandole
I don't admire anyone who circs for religious reasons, IMO, it's actually very creepy.......to mutilate your child because you believe that God said so? What else are you willing to do to your child?
and my response which took alot of heat out of context
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I honestly don't admire anyone who does not believe in God (or Goddess or other higher power). I find that actually very creepy. To walk around the earth thinking theres no other purpose then YOU living your daily life. To serve yourself.
I am posting this to remind myself and everyone reading this that when we (including myself) generalize about any group - we are choosing and ignorant and dangerous path.
What do Jews believe or think about Christianity is just as unanswerable a question.
On a personal level, I was simply taught that Jews are waiting for the Messiah to come, and Christians believe Jesus was messiah, did come and are awaiting His return.
I think thats the most basic answer I can give - the main difference between the two religions. But I believe you knew that already.
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