amitymamaThe Attachment Parenting Community

Barb · 06-02-2006, 11:51 AM

We've been having some major issues at our church and several of our dear friends have left recently. I felt led after much prayer to talk to our staff and express some of these concerns, thoughts etc.

'm c/ping from an email I have drafted to send back to the chairman of the board and cc to the pastors and worship directors- and possibly some of the other church members.

I could use your thoughts and prayers. I'm not sending it yet obviously as its still too raw and I'm in too much pain. But i had to get it out of my heart to start my own grief and healing process.

This is the 2nd edited draft. I will not send it til I've prayed for a few days and made sure its what I want to say> i know it is too long but I've no idea what I can cut

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is why my family is leaving XXXXXX Church.

I went to Kurt feeling lost, alone, confused, upset and angry. I went to him as my spiritual leader, my Pastor since (as I explained
to him) I was feeling so disconnected from Frank. I talked about my feelings about all the changes, the trauma we
have all experienced as a church and how it was personally affecting me. He listened to me. He helped me reframe some
things into how could I act in a positive manner to help make changes and I thank him for that. Kurt was
supportive, loving and filled with the Spirit of God. He honestly helped me feel that I was still an
important member of the church community and that things could and would get better with time, love and prayer.

Kurt also referred me at that time to Dan Miller as chairman of the board of directors to discuss some more physical
issues, changes, offer solutions etc.

My husband and I met with Dan at our home in what I thought was a confidential conversation.
I addressed some background and reiterated many times that despite what was happening with several of our friends at church
we did not want to leave. We loved PVCC and wanted to work through this garbage and come out the other side with
solutions and good feelings. We've been members 3 years.
Tom said how we'd loved Frank when we came. We didn't really know Gary so that was a non issue for us - he left right as we
started. We enjoyed Franks messages, we enjoyed the people, we got involved on many levels. I volunteered for things,
my kids do awana and vbs, my teen is involved with the teen ministry and is going to CHIC, my hubby even drove
the security cart in the parking lot patrol. We went to events, helped any time we could. Over the course of 3 years
we felt we were members of a church family. I started singing in the praise band. We felt like we were part of something.

There have been several huge traumas at PVCC in the past 3 years and we know that time heals. But people do have
thoughts, feelings and concerns. We were 'warned' (by other church members)not to bring up our thoughts, feelings,
concerns - even with solutions because we'd be asked to leave the church (or have it insinuated that we should leave)
and I told my friends they were wrong. That simply couldn't be true. They must be wrong. Our church would never do that
to its congregation. Frank has preached repeatedly that church isn't a building or a philosophy or
rules - its the people, the koinonia , the fellowship that is of utmost important to worship.

We sat with Dan and we discussed the feelings of disconnectedness and distance that we (and others) have felt from
Frank over the past year or so. The feeling that he doesn't know us, doesn't want to know us, doesn't have time for us
and our needs, thoughts, concerns etc. That feels bad from a senior pastor. I told Dan I've been actively praying for
Frank and that this was all said in love, in Christ and in true concern not only for ourselves and our church, but for the
man himself. That something was obviously wrong and it was seeping into things. THe messages are changing. Maybe
those are planned changes - if so - then yes, we need to make decisions accordingly but then I feel lied to.

At Christmas I went and met with Frank expressing my concern over losing the Traditions service. I felt (and still feel)
that it was not right to only offer a contemporary, rock, adult only service on Christmas eve. I made suggestions
and was basically told that because we weren't fully staffed we couldn't do it... yet.

Well, we're fully staffed now yet those changes aren't happening. In fact, the very opposite is happening from what we are seeing.
Those of us with young families are connecting outside of church and discussing the fact that the services are
not appropriate for our young children to sit in worship with us, that theres no family service at all now to bring the 5yo or the
grandmother too on the holiest of days.

I love Franks sense of humor - but I did mention to Dan as well that some people, including my husband have been
bothered/hurt a bit by some of the comments. Some recent references made us feel that maybe we're not
'rich, trendy or hip' enough for this church. I made it very clear to Dan again that these things were not said as personal attack or in malice
but in a sincere desire to help be part of the solution, not part of the problem. That we are not alone in feeling
that theres been alot of sarcasm in the messages lately.

I felt I couldn't come to Frank again with my issues as he had even preached about criticism
and "letting the people who know what they're doing make the decisions" so I addressed my concerns with Dan.

My husband and I (and several other families ) feel :
~ we are being dismissed as unimportant. Our views, opinions, concerns and thoughts about church vision
are not taken into consideration by the church pastoral staff and board
~ that our pastor doesn't like us, talk to us or know us . When you do get his attention it is very obvious Frank wants to be anywhere else
but talking to you. Even if you have something positive to say
~ The message is being "spun" to meet the churchs vision/need - to prove we're 'doing the right thing' vs to help
people as it used to, to use Gods word in their daily lives
~ Families needs are no longer what seems important to this church as evidenced by completely taking away any
traditional services when the congregation is asking them not to.

Instead of walking away from our church home and family, we made it really crystal clear to Dan that we wanted
to work through our feelings and continue to be an active, loving part of our church.
We talked about how we do see so much love and good at PVCC. How Carey responded when we needed
help getting our teenage daughter to Chic. How Miss Diane heard the need for consistency in the toddler room and that our children coudln't be left because
of the lack of that consistencey. It took 9 months (we're not expecting anything overnight) but finally someone
will be starting in there full time.

I even talked to Dan about how through all the grief and trauma thru the music ministry issues, we were coming about.
I expressed my concern again about how we were asked to come to interviews and give feedback and that at least
five members of the band that I know of were absolutely shocked by both choices when they came down as we
had expressed concern about both choices.
When I spoke to Kurt about my feelings surrounding the music ministry I cried and I asked for guidance on how to deal
with my feelings. I felt that we were just a bunch of people playing together and not a worship team, not a ministry the way we should be.
I needed to know how I could get past my feelings and grief and open my heart and mind to Adrians leadership.
We talked about a get to know you thing with the band, and I did suggest a party to Adrian . He seemed receptive and that made
me happy. I told Kurt the following sunday I felt so much better about the music stuff and
knew that we'd work through it with Gods help. I continued to pray for our music ministry, our pastor, and the church
issues including the changes of all traditional services.

I told Dan all of this and when he left our home I felt like we'd done the right thing. The Christ based thing . We didnt' walk away from our church
home and not tell anyone what we were feeling, we expressed valid concerns, thoughts, feelings We didnt' church bash -
this was our church HOME our church and spiritual FAMILY. When he left I felt like maybe finally some things were heard.
If the changes were permanent with no chance of altering the direction of the church then we'd make the best decision
for our family - but we hoped that wouldn't be the case.

I had hoped Dan would take the information, think about it ,pray about it, talk to the staff in general terms, feel it out, see if there was room for changes or suggestions, problem
solve etc. I guess I even held onto a small hope that if he did tell the pastor our feelings of him not even liking us or wanting
to know us that his response, as a PASTOR in Christ would be to come meet with us himself and try to help us.

The music ministry was what drew me to PVCC, and it is truly right now the only way that I praise and worship the
Lord on Sundays. I've made that abundantly clear that it is the love of my life. Praising Jesus, singing to the Lord, it is what
fills my soul and my personal relationship with God every single day of my life.

So imagine my surprise when 4 hours after my meeting with Dan I get a call to tell me that out of all this information, out of all
the hours of prayer and conversation with other families, of all my concerns, thoughts , solutions, feelings - these men of GOD came up with one solution to all of it...

Barb needs to step down from the music ministry.

Wow. Talk about un Christ like behavior. It was just such a smack in the face.
Is this a punishment for having opinions? I dont' agree with what is going on with the politics of the church and the direction we're going in so I am told I am no longer
welcome to sing with the praise ministry? Is Frank so angry with me that he just don't even want to have to deal with me
as part of the team? I am blown away. That was not at all what I expected in response to my putting myself out
there with honesty and truth. If they had said "the church is changing, we're sorry you feel the way you do but this is the way it
is and maybe you will be happier elsewhere" I could've dealt with that much better then a response of "you are no longer
part of the music ministry".

This is just so unethical and wrong. There is nothing Christ based in any of this. I felt that I need to talk about what is
going on at PVCC and be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. I've been asked to stop praising God through music at our church. why? Because I
hurt the pastors feelings? Because I'm too strong, too verbal, too passionate?

By asking me to leave the music ministry I believe they knew it would be a knife in my heart. I believe that was intentional.
Rather then ask me to leave the church, they simply took my love from me knowing that
I'd choose to leave. Everyone who has ever talked to me knows that my personal relationship with God, my spiritual growth is based in the praise music.
If PVCC wants to take the gift God gave me to use to praise Him and to touch others and throw it out - thats just - wow.

Obviously there is no resolution to come. People are choosing to leave. We are the third family this week I believe.

The general theme seems to be there is only the PVCC way or the highway.

We will be choosing the high way.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is just my second draft

I'm so incredibly hurt and upset and shocked by all of this.

I cannot believe they told me I'm no longer welcome to sing praise to the Lord at my church on sundays.

LatteLover · 06-02-2006, 12:50 PM

Wow Barb. I have to admit, I didn't read it all, but you are really hurting, I can tell. I am not sure why some people are poor stewards of their power and authority, but that seems to be the case here (from what I have read) and I am so sad that you cannot stay with your congregation. I hope that are able to find another place that will nourish your spiritual lives and allow you all to heal nd grow.

Natalia · 06-02-2006, 01:15 PM

Robin · 06-02-2006, 01:16 PM

Barb, first of all {{{{hugs}}}}, it is clear that you are hurting. I am so sorry for that fact.

I know that it is hard to face what you are dealing with but I would encourage you and your family to take some time to heal while you are searching for a new church. I know that it can and probably will be a difficult time of transition for you all.

I don't know what all is going on in your current church and to be honest it is hard to know all the facts without being involved. I only say this because we have personally been on the pastoral side of having to take a very traditional congregation and move them to a more contemporary model of worship.

I don't know that the situation you are in is the same but I can tell you that we faced huge problems with many of the more traditional members. We had a mandate from our supervisors and did not have much ultimate control over the direction the style was going to be. (To be honest we wouldn't have taken the job if it was going to continue to be a tradtional model.) Because of this though we became the enemy to some people and yes there were 2 instances where my dh told people that he felt like they would be happier finding some place else to worship.

He did not do this out of anger but because it was really an unhealthy situation. One couple left and the other stayed but their attitude was remarkably different.

I only mention this because if the senior pastor was hired with a mandate from the board or elders to transition the church to more contemporary model. He may feel that he is doing what the church called him to do. While he is trying to accomplish this goal he is taking lots of negative criticism from people and he has to try to handle it in the best manner he can.

I will say again, that I don't personally know your situation so I can't speak with authority but I hope that this gives you a different perspective. I don't necessarily agree with the manner that this was handled but I also don't know what your church structure looks like. Personally I think the senior pastor and the worship pastor should have scheduled a meeting with you but they may have legitimate reasons for not doing this.

I hope you don't feel that I am attacking you or your feelings or perspective on this situation. I am not, you were hurt and it is a difficult situation and you have a right to grieve and mourn the loss you are experiencing.

If you want to chat please feel free to email or pm or im me. I am really sorry that you are hurting through all of this.

momof2peewees · 06-02-2006, 01:21 PM

We went through this about 2 years ago and when you didn't agree, you were ostrasized! I will be praying for your family that you find a better church home where you will be appreciated and loved like you should be. We are now in a much better place and I believe we are where we are supposed to be. If you need to talk, I'll listen. Keep your eyes on God and His will for your lives! Tina

~Meeshi~ · 06-02-2006, 01:31 PM

Wow! I know how much singing your praises means to you and I am sorry that the leaders of your church hurt you in this way.

It must be crushing.

I hope that this one door closing leads you to the opening of an even more rewarding opportunity.

Barb · 06-02-2006, 01:39 PM

thank you guys for the responses. Robin - if the church is going totally contemporary/modern thats fine - but be honest about that and let us have facts so we can move on ya know?
I LOVE our rock service - i sing with the praise band not the choir. I love the modern messages - but I don't think transiberian orchestra and referencing the shawshank redemption (with clip) on christmas eve are appropriate for me sitting with my teen, 6yo and 3yo . If the church wants to move away from all things traditional, just say so - and let folks move on. Don't lie to us ya know?

Robin, i do appreciate your feedback. i've been honestly trying to look at it from the pastors position and I'm not seeing any love coming from him at all in explaining, guiding, teaching, leading = all we see/feel (now up to 5 couples) is 'too bad you're sad. leave if you don't like the way we do things'

freedomlover · 06-02-2006, 01:45 PM

Wow.
It is appalling to read about the dysfunction going on there right now.

I have seen similar sorts of interactions within other groups (schools, neighborhood associations, the govermental agencies, corporations)

It is SO disheartening when it is close to your spiritual heart!

May you find an even more special place to be experiencing your faith.

Hugs.

dreamseeds · 06-02-2006, 04:17 PM

Barb, at least things are coming to a head. I see how painful this is for you, but I think about a week ago I saw your concern first posted. And now it seems more clear what you guys need to do.

I am so sorry...and if you are expected to move on and 'see ya in heaven" type of thing, then I pray your family finds a church that you love and that works the vision your family feels they need to be part of.
Keep us posted.

DixieChick · 06-02-2006, 04:59 PM

Barb, I read the whole thing. again, my family worships in a very different way from you, but I am sorry about the way youahve been treated. Clearly, your preacher is focused on getting people in the pews and not much else. I am sorry you were treated this way by a man professing to be a man of God. IT shows once again that our only faith can be put in God, not in men, as we will all fall down.

Hugs Barb. I wish you the very best blessing sin finding a new home.

Astoria · 06-02-2006, 06:53 PM

We left our church at Christmastime and it literally took me months for my heart not to be hurting at night.

I only have a few close friendships remaining. We were there for 3 years, our youngest son was baptised there.

I tried to talk it out but I wasn't really heard. But more than that, I had to come to terms with the fact that I was growing in a different direction in my heart (and my dh as well) and we were going to get to this place one way or another. It was easy to blame them, but they had one vision and it was fine for them to follow it. My spouse and I were being led another way.

We left an evangelical PCA church and are now so so happily becoming a part of an Episcopal church. Leaving hurt terribly, like the breakoff of an engagment or something. But it gave us room to actually follow the path the Lord was leading us on. We needed to make room and not cling to something that wasn't a place a peace and worship for us.

Your circumstances are obviously different, but truly, sometimes its like leaving a boyfriend, you learn, love and grow, and sometimes need to move on. It hurts, but every experience is a gift in the end. And your next place of fellowship will be more accepting of you and you will feel a part of a community that is accepting to the misfits and the non-trendy ones and you will be loved and be of service there. There's a church out there that is so needing your voice.

Robin · 06-02-2006, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hippiemama

thank you guys for the responses. Robin - if the church is going totally contemporary/modern thats fine - but be honest about that and let us have facts so we can move on ya know?
I LOVE our rock service - i sing with the praise band not the choir. I love the modern messages - but I don't think transiberian orchestra and referencing the shawshank redemption (with clip) on christmas eve are appropriate for me sitting with my teen, 6yo and 3yo . If the church wants to move away from all things traditional, just say so - and let folks move on. Don't lie to us ya know?

Robin, i do appreciate your feedback. i've been honestly trying to look at it from the pastors position and I'm not seeing any love coming from him at all in explaining, guiding, teaching, leading = all we see/feel (now up to 5 couples) is 'too bad you're sad. leave if you don't like the way we do things'

Barb, I personally agree with you on the Christmas thing. I think what they did was in poor taste and really out of touch with culture. I think I posted that when you originally posted about this. This is coming for someone who has been apart of very contemporary churches for about 13 years. Christmas is really the time when people want the traditional things and they can be presented in up to date ways.

Like I said I don't know if your church is moving away from a traditional style or not. I don't know your particular situation or the leadership situation. I really was just trying to give you a different point of view. I don't know why the leadership hasn't tried to cast the vision they have for the church, or maybe they have and just haven't been effective in communicating it.

I do know that in a traditional situation it is hard and sometimes not the best decision to say hey this is the style we are aiming for and in a year you will not recognize this church. Many times it is easier and better for the entire congregation to bring about changes moderately. Maybe that is what the leadership is trying to do. Maybe they are aiming for a blended feel, where they provide some traditional and some contemporary services? (BTW typically this doesn't work and just makes everyone mad but that is IMO.)

I am certainly not saying that the leadership is handling the situation correctly. When my dh had to confront issues he did it in a variety of ways, but they were always through him and did not use other people to address the needs. But I also know that even when he did that people did not feel loved by him. They were hurt and disillusioned. He was accused of attacking people. In all of this never once did anyone else admit that they had done anything wrong. This were people who were hateful about our supervisor in a public setting. They attacked the work we were doing again in public. They were continually negative about what was going on and they used gossip to undermine the ministry of the church. When confronted they were hurt and angry and couldn't believe that dh could be so unloving BUT they never apologized for their actions, they even went as far as to deny them.

I am not accusing you but hopefully giving you some perspective. When we have problems in a church we are to address those problems openly and I think you have tried to do that. But if the leadership knows you have been openly discussing these problems with other people then they may see that as stirring up dissention and/or gossip (and I am not making a judgement about whether or not this happened or not). From a leadership perspective that could strongly influence the way they deal with the situation.

I know this doesn't make it better for you or your family. I am really not trying to defend your pastor, I don't even know the man. I happen to think this is a situation where you are seeing lots of things happen because you are dealing with men that are human and they are prone to make mistakes.

And please know that I am sorry you are having to deal with this, it is hard. I have been in ministry long enough to be disillusioned by Christians and by particular groups, but I have also been ministered to in ways that I would never have believed possible. I know what it is like to have your ministry ripped away from you and I know how deeply that hurts. I would never try to minimize what you are experiencing so I hope you know that. I have seen the good and the bad. I would encourage you to hold onto the good and try to release the bad. Know that if you have done what you should and need to that God is in control and he will take care of the rest. Also give yourself time to grieve this hurt and loss, because that will help you heal and find a better place to serve and worship.

Again, {{{{hugs}}}}.

jeni · 06-02-2006, 09:23 PM

ryrggftfrfgrfftfttffttrtytfyftyfftyf

sorry kid at keyboard

I wanted to add that I am also so sorry this is happening to you. It stinks when everything you love changes and there is no room for you in the change. God is good, He will give you what you need. I hope it is soon.

grian · 06-02-2006, 11:21 PM

I'm so sorry for you and your family. I hope that you will find peace with your decision and find a new church family that will be a better fit for you.

Sunflower_Momma · 06-03-2006, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by )O(Meeshi)O(

Wow! I know how much singing your praises means to you and I am sorry that the leaders of your church hurt you in this way.

It must be crushing.

I hope that this one door closing leads you to the opening of an even more rewarding opportunity.

I'm going to have to ditto Meeshi. the Praise team has been so big for you. Before you wrote the words, i thought, "knife in your heart." I'm so sorry and I hope you find a home that fits even better. I'm very sorry.