spiritual discussionsThis is the place at AW for mamas to learn about all different religions and beliefs, to ask questions, to give answers- all done with respect! if you don't have anything nice to say here- don't say anything at all.
Wow, my stomach is really in knots right now. I was just browsing around and stumbled upon a very hateful discussion about Christians and public prayer. It seems like the law of the land is tolerance for all things...except Christians. If there isn't any truth to it, why do people get so offended? The bible says rejoice in persecution.
I really have to pick and choose my battles and I've been staying away from defending my faith to those who don't care to hear it.
Wow, good luck with this thread. lol!
Anyway, basically I just don't deal with it. There are legitimate cases of Christianity being pushed on people and I will speak out that I don't support that and don't believe that it's ok but there are also people who are just determined to be offended by Christians. It used to bother me a *LOT* but I just don't let it get to me any more. If it happens online I just don't open that thread again. I've found that it really is easy to avoid wasting emotional energy online and that's to just not open the threads when they get weird.
I've only dealt with it IRL once and I do think I didn't react as well as I should. Someone on the email list for a local natural parenting group started a politically and religiously charged thread not expecting to hear anyone disagree. Well I did. And she got really nasty so I just unsubbed and left the group. I was moving in a couple months anyway, yk? I really should have stood up for myself and told her I had just as much of a right to share my thoughts as she did because really...when you bring up something charged like that then you have to be willing to hear more than one side and this girl just couldn't do that.
Anyway, like I said, good luck with this thread and grab some asbestos.
__________________
~*~Tiffany~*~
"Receive the children with reverence.
Educate them in love.
Send them forth in freedom."
~Rudolf Steiner
It seems like the law of the land is tolerance for all things...except Christians.
Okay, I'm christian, but a liberal one (and, as an aside I've been thinking about forever, the more I read of Tiffany's posts, the more and more I respect her - we might not agree on everything, but I do have developed a lot of respect for her; she is wise ).
Anyway, I think you are right. When I went to grad school, the school strongly emphasized tolerance of diversity. Everyone at school was extremely supportive of diversity for everything, BUT religion (primarily Christian and especially that of my family). Whenever I mentioned that I was raised Mormon, I would get an "ohhh" as if that told them so much about who I was.
That said, I think you are right only in part. I think it depends on where you look. Where I was raised in the SF Bay Area, you'd be right on in your assessment. If you look where I work currently - in rural Kansas - you'd be completely wrong and, rather, the lack of tolerance shown is for everyone who ISN'T christian. It is assumed that everyone is.
I believe that for most of this country's history Christianity has been the assumption and it has only been in the last 20-30 years when there have been other views. So, in a sense, those who were raised Christian are feeling the impact of losing some ground.
Then, I believe that Christians (or anyone receiving criticism) have an obligation to look at it and question if any of the complaints are legitimate. I believe strongly that in this country many of those complaints are very very valid. As a large group, many Christians are judgmental of others. They can come across as believing themselves superior. They do seem to make strong statements that come across as holier than thou. Which is part of the reason why - though Christian myself - I tend to align myself with the liberal side of Christianity. Let me give you a quick example taken from your quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovelyMama
How do you personally deal with persecution?
- note, emphasis mine
"persecution" is a very very loaded word. Let's go to Websters to define:
Main Entry: per·se·cute
Pronunciation: 'p&r-si-"kyüt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -cut·ed; -cut·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French persecuter, back-formation from persecuteur persecutor, from Late Latin persecutor, from persequi to persecute, from Latin, to pursue, from per- through + sequi to follow -- more at SUE
1 : to harass in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
2 : to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) : PESTER
To me, when I hear the word "persecution" I think of gross atrocities intentionally imposed on others. I think of racism, I think of people being killed in the name of religion, I do not think of discussions which imply that Christian values should be kept out of political values. Being persecuted implies (IMO) being a victim and it is very hard to see - especially in this political climate/administration where the conservative christian movement has so much political power - that Christians are being persecuted in this country where they are the majority.
So, I'd go with Tiffany's advice because *sometimes* she is right
(Tiffany, I hope you hear that with the humor it was intended).
I.e., "turn the other cheek," but at the same time maybe try to consider (not necessarily agree with, but consider) the other's point of view.
This is a great thread so far!!! I'd agree with most everything Sunflower Momma said, but I have been attending a liberal Christian church for the past year. (almost a year)
I live in Wyoming....where everyone is Christian and if you are not, then you don't say that you are not.
I think things that the current President has done has put more people on the defensive about Christianity. Even some Christians!!! I honestly do think his administration is the only one I've seen in my lifetime that openly appears to push his own personal religion and this scares me so much. But that is totally just my own impression from where I'm standing personally/politically/spiritually.
I do remember when I was LDS that I often felt "attacked" by those around me because of my beliefs. And regardless of how widespread it is, when you feel that way it hurts just the same. Whether it is one person, or a small group, or a large group.
As far as what to do? I'd look to the Bible and see how Jesus responded for your example of how to handle it.
Michelle
__________________ "If it (salvation) is based solely on following rules, then it isn't grace via faith in Jesus Christ"
the more I read of Tiffany's posts, the more and more I respect her - we might not agree on everything, but I do have developed a lot of respect for her; she is wise ).
Does this mean you won't chase me around telling me off anymore?
I agree with you on the term persecution. I thought of that while I was taking my shower. Persecution is what is happening in countries like China where you aren't allowed to have a bible or you get arrested for having church or worse things that happen elsewhere. Kids in the US who aren't allowed to carry a bible in school and also kids of other religions who aren't allowed to carry their holy book in school...that's persecution too IMHO. But people who are just talking and griping about Christianity? Nah. Annoying like a mosquito but not persecution. At one time I was *very* defensive about people saying negative things about Christians but the more you read here if you really hear what people are saying (as Sunflower_Momma said) then it's really eye opening and by listening to what people are saying you can change your approach to other religions and perhaps help to turn some people's opinions around. The bible does say there will be people who hate us for His name's sake but there are also a lot of people whose opinions can be influenced by just seeing a little more of His love in us, yk? I'm not a liberal Christian, I'm a very very conservative one but I try to keep in mind that Jesus never forced anyone to accept Him or what He was saying and as much as we may disagree with things that go on in the secular and political world, we cannot and should not *make* people see things our way because it doesn't work and only causes resentment.
I do see what people are saying about small, rural places. I grew up in a small Ohio town and it was generally assumed that you were a Christian. You either went to church like a good family or you were probably sitting around smoking and drinking beer. Very cut and dry. I remember my 5th grade teacher talking to a kid who was notorious for acting up *all* the time. He asked him if he went to Sunday School. The kid said no and the teacher said "Well you really should. It might help your behavior." This was in the early 80s so it never occured to us that that might not be appropriate, yk? But now in hindsight in this day and age it probably would have cost the teacher his job. Someone who openly practiced paganism probably would not have been received well at all so I can see how difficult it must be for pagan mamas in rural communities.
After a night and not getting involved I feel much better. I live in a very liberal place - Eugene, Oregon. The closest thing is probably SanFransisco. Lane County has few churches per square mile than any other county in the country - last I heard.
In a way, I agree persecution probably wasn't the right word to use, but it is also the beginning. If you believe what the bible says about the last days, it will likely be very illegal to be a Christian in the U.S. sooner or later. It starts with small steps.
I am way more into loving my neighbors than fighting with them. I just don't like being told where I can and can not be a Christian.
Does this mean you won't chase me around telling me off anymore?
That's right (well at least until the next presidential election ). No, seriously, (and this is OT), the more I read of your posts, the more respect I gain. Been thinking about telling you that. Now I have. So, from me to you, I apologize for creating an image in my head that was incomplete and unfairly biased.
If you believe what the bible says about the last days, it will likely be very illegal to be a Christian in the U.S. sooner or later. It starts with small steps.
No worries about that anytime soon, mama. I seriously doubt that will happen in your lifetime, the lifetime of your children, or the lifetime of your grandchildren.
Not wanting to have someone's else's religion given "rights" over another religion, or being subjected to Christian prayers as if no other religion exists, or should be represented, is *not* persecution. Sorry. But I don't buy the "Christians are being persecuted" thought. I just don't.
I think what Michelle said above is very true.... the current president and many of his backers and supports have done more to divide this country where religion is concerned than ever to unite it.
That's right (well at least until the next presidential election ). No, seriously, (and this is OT), the more I read of your posts, the more respect I gain. Been thinking about telling you that. Now I have. So, from me to you, I apologize for creating an image in my head that was incomplete and unfairly biased.
Hey guys, I didn't mean to start a debate over the word persecution. My question was directed towards Christians and it was: How do YOU respond to hate?
Hey guys, I didn't mean to start a debate over the word persecution. My question was directed towards Christians and it was: How do YOU respond to hate?
Can we change it such that all religions can answer?
Hmmmmmm. . . How do I respond to hate? Haven't really been subjected to it in years, but when I was a practicing Mormon, I was subjected to lack of understanding and prejudging.
I think hate is a strong term and, as a former LDS member, I'd have to say that the LDS religion is one of the most misunderstood/prejudged Christian religions, so I probably have a fair amount of experience with diapproval, but I cannot recall an incident of true "hate."
My hs bf's mother used to subject him to TONS of anti-mormon literature and her biggest fear was that I would get pregnant and he would have to convert to a "pagan" (not using that term derogatory at all; just showing her lack of understanding of the differences) religion (thing is, I wouldn't let him because I was waiting until marriage). I knew she strongly disliked me for my religion, but, honestly, I didn't take it personally at all.
When I did marry the first time, my ex-h said he wanted religion in our home, but after we married he began to show his true colors and believed that anyone who believed in God was intellectually inferior. That was a pretty hard one. I lived with that for five years. At first, I'd go to church and church activities by myself. Eventually, I stopped going, stopped really believing, and then started resenting God (because I felt so alone). So, that was a pretty big one.
Then, in grad school, as I mentioned before, religious identification was the one area in which it was okay to prejudge others. So, I hid my religious views.
Since all that time, I've gotten older, more confident in myself, and less concerned with others think. It doesn't really bug me and I sort of let it go. I know what I believe (for the most part) as to God, Jesus, and what I think it means to be a good Christian (which is different from how I see much of Christianity being represented). I figure that if you are confident in your beliefs, it doesn't really matter what others have to say about it or you.
I figure that if you are confident in your beliefs, it doesn't really matter what others have to say about it or you.
Yeah that pretty much sums it all up, doesn't it? If someone tries to prevent me from practicing my religion or tries to take away our bibles then we got a problem but just griping about us or talking smack? Pfftt...whatever. Sticks and stones I say. Let God handle it.
So LovelyMama....how do *you* handle it?
Hey guys, I didn't mean to start a debate over the word persecution. My question was directed towards Christians and it was: How do YOU respond to hate?
Generally, I say a prayer for the person and then ignore it. I have found that it usually does very little good to try to engage people who are biased against my beliefs, especially on the internet. If it is someone I know or a group of which I am a member, I will try to gently correct any incorrect information they may have, but I don't try to get into a debate or otherwise convince them that they should share my beliefs.
__________________
Maryalene
Proud Mama to Madeline, Donny and Max
And she got really nasty so I just unsubbed and left the group. I was moving in a couple months anyway, yk? I really should have stood up for myself and told her I had just as much of a right to share my thoughts as she did because really...when you bring up something charged like that then you have to be willing to hear more than one side and this girl just couldn't do that. 
).
Yeah that pretty much sums it all up, doesn't it? 
If someone tries to prevent me from practicing my religion or tries to take away our bibles then we got a problem but just griping about us or talking smack? Pfftt...whatever. Sticks and stones I say. Let God handle it. 
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