spiritual discussionsThis is the place at AW for mamas to learn about all different religions and beliefs, to ask questions, to give answers- all done with respect! if you don't have anything nice to say here- don't say anything at all.
Anise, that would explain the use of the word "mysteries" for sacraments in my church. I think the use of the word comes from the Greek, as do most words in my church usage. Also, it explains the prayer's usage of the word. I guess my cursory reading of that passage from Wikipedia was a little too cursory! (Or, I am just dumb.)
No, that article is just crazily biased. It's talking about only the extreme version of certain initiatory Mystery traditions with a particular Greek bent to them. But anywhere there is mysticism there are Mysteries, and certainly not all Mysteries are available only to a certain elite or select group *nless* you consider all Catholics, all Anglicans etc an elite group The point is that most religions have mystical spects to them that don't necessarily follow what is outlined in that particular article.
This is what I was going by on the site Becca posted:
"A mystery religion is any religion with an arcanum, or body of secret wisdom. In a mystery religion, an inner core of beliefs, practices, and the religion's true nature, are revealed only to those who have been initiated into its secrets."
"mystery religions do not produce a body of scripture that is claimed to be "revealed" by the prophet of a deity."
"For the other two general forms of religions, compare the public revelations embodied in a written scripture that are characteristic of any "revealed religion""
I guess I'm a little confused then. Is this source not defining the term correctly? I guess there is a down side to using a lay source instead of an actual encyclopedia.
See above post. That Wikipedia article is way biased.
Rebecca, wasn't trying to split hairs with ya. I just wanted to point out that there are aspects of most any religion IMO that could put it under the mystery relgion heading.
Also I was just trying to point out that anyone with an opinion could submit an article or essay to the site you linked and wanted to clarify that, maybe not necessarily for you but for anyone else coming in on the thread.
I wanted to say that I did in fact find the link interesting and it touched on many points that I was able to somewhat agree with and also some (most)that I disagree with, but that's how it goes.
Sorry if you took offense to my post earlier, I didnt think I came across that way.
Also, for just a moment, Id like to point out the difference between mystery and sacred. I think that its safe to say that if you are part of a religion and there is mystery, then no one would know what it is/how it happened. But if its sacred, then anyone willing to persue for information could obtain it. I dont find this to be an act of mystery religion because if you want to know, you can.
Twiceblessed was saying that there aren't any mainstream Christian churches with 'secret beliefs' I found it interesting that she used the word secret in place of mysterious because I think a majority of people do tend to see the words as being synonymous. I dont think much of anything to do with the LDS church would be considered truly mysterious, maybe secret but even that is a stretch because anyone can learn everything about the church if they wanted. Everything about the church and the temple ceremonies can be found in the Bible.
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Twiceblessed was saying that there aren't any mainstream Christian churches with 'secret beliefs' I found it interesting that she used the word secret in place of mysterious because I think a majority of people do tend to see the words as being synonymous.
I said "secret" because I was using this definition from wikipedia "A mystery religion is any religion with an arcanum, or body of secret wisdom" which I see now is not exactly reliable. lol! The words mystery and secret and non synonyms. Mystery is something that we don't know the answer to. A secret is something people do know the answer to but they ain't tellin'. lol! At least that seems to be the way they are using it in the article.
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I said "secret" because I was using this definition from wikipedia "A mystery religion is any religion with an arcanum, or body of secret wisdom" which I see now is not exactly reliable. lol! The words mystery and secret and non synonyms. Mystery is something that we don't know the answer to. A secret is something people do know the answer to but they ain't tellin'. lol! At least that seems to be the way they are using it in the article.
And Wikipedia is EXACTLY correct. That is indeed what a mystery religion is. Their page was excellently written and right on the money. I find it accurate both academically and spiritually.
Here are a few other pages that explore this topic as well:
Being a Mystery Tradition has nothing to do with having secrets that others aren't allowed to know.
Being a Mystery tradition has to do with how we deal with the unknown. Mystery is based on the contact between this world and what lies intaingible just beyond. IT has to do with how we interact with the unseen, with God, and how those interactions affect and change our daily attitudes and rpactices. And of course it has to do with how much of the religious life is connected to/with access to the Mystery.
I lke this definition: "Mysteries are a set of esoteric principles that govern existence, the personal implementation of which theoretically produce "enlightenment." "
"Snip>
You may define it however you wish Anise. However, I completely disagree that "secrets" and "hidden knowledge" have nothing to do with Mystery Religions of our Ancestors or today's Mystery Religions. That is absolutely incorrect.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but what "is" and what "isn't" is plain.
Again --- there is a huge difference between a Mystery Religion, and mystical elements or beliefs within any/all religions.
No, that article is just crazily biased. It's talking about only the extreme version of certain initiatory Mystery traditions with a particular Greek bent to them. But anywhere there is mysticism there are Mysteries, and certainly not all Mysteries are available only to a certain elite or select group *nless* you consider all Catholics, all Anglicans etc an elite group The point is that most religions have mystical spects to them that don't necessarily follow what is outlined in that particular article.
Again "mystical aspects" do not make a Mystery Religion nor Tradition. Sorry, but that just isn't true Anise.
<snip>
I guess there is a down side to using a lay source instead of an actual encyclopedia.
MSN Encarta, Encyclopedia Britannica, The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001; and Encyclopedia Mythica ALL are academic based, and they ALL have very similar entries for "mystery religions", "mystery cults" or "mystery faiths."
So, again, it's not a problem with Wikipedia at all -- it's a problem with how people are choosing to personally define "mystery religion/cult/faith" vrs. how it is actually defined.
SORRY for hijaking the LDS thread (which is very interesting) into a sub-topic. If someone wishes to continue discussing and/or debating what mystery religions / faiths / cults are, and what they are not, maybe this should be split off by a moderator into a new thread.
Anyway - Sorry for the actual thread getting hijacked.
MSN Encarta, Encyclopedia Britannica, The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001; and Encyclopedia Mythica ALL are academic based, and they ALL have very similar entries for "mystery religions", "mystery cults" or "mystery faiths."
So, again, it's not a problem with Wikipedia at all -- it's a problem with how people are choosing to personally define "mystery religion/cult/faith" vrs. how it is actually defined.
Well, it's really not a big deal to me anyway. I generally assume Anise knows what she is talking about with this sort of thing because of her education in the subject but like I said it's not really a concern of mine other than it makes for interesting discussion.
All righty. Let's start here, from teh Catholic Encyclopedia:
Quote:
In conformity with the usage of the inspired writers of the New Testament, theologians give the name mystery to revealed truths that surpass the powers of natural reason. Mystery, therefore, in its strict theological sense is not synonymous with the incomprehensible, since all that we know is incomprehensible, i.e., not adequately comprehensible as to its inner being; nor with the unknowable, since many things merely natural are accidentally unknowable, on account of their inaccessibility, e.g., things that are future, remote, or hidden. In its strict sense a mystery is a supernatural truth, one that of its very nature lies above the finite intelligence.
What I take issue with is the idea of a Mystery being something "other people aren't allowed to know: secret". Because that isn't quite true, and is rather misleading. It isn't that other people (ie, the "uninitiated") aren't allowed to know or that I can't tell you: it's that unless you've had the expereince yourself, you can't know and I quite literally can't tell you. The Mystery is that which is revealed which lies beyond human capacity to demonstrate, relay, or express. The Catholic encyclopedia did a great job expressing that.
Modern Mystery Traditions are tradtions in which primary understanding of God, the Divine, the Sacred, the Universe, whatever comes from such revealed instruction. Its basis is primarily mystical--focusing on the bridge between that which we can know and that which is ineffable. Traditions that rely instead on passed down knowledge, recorded wisdom are called Wisdom Traditions, and include Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc because there are a body of sacred writings that form the primary canon of sacred knowledge. There is still mysticism and there are still mysteries, but they are secondary to the sacred writings.
Now, about this business about being initiated, there are two possibilities here. There is the physical initiation by a body or a person which essentially lets you into their club, and then there's divine initiation, or course changins, where God bestows enlightenment. IIRC, the Eleusinian Mysteries (i can never spell that right, and don't make me try and say it) were open to anyone. Anyone could go and participate. But that doesn't mean that everyone "understood" the rite. Some would go and think "yeah that was great" and others might go and have their eyes opened. And that opening of the eye, that transparency between God and man, is the initiation. That is where the Mystery descends. ANd that experience is what defines a mystery tradition.
Without all of the above you don't have a Mystery Tradition. You have a "Secret Handshake Club".
>What I take issue with is the idea of a Mystery being something "other >people aren't allowed to know: secret". Because that isn't quite true, and is >rather misleading. It isn't that other people (ie, the "uninitiated") aren't >allowed to know or that I can't tell you: it's that unless you've had the >expereince yourself, you can't know and I quite literally can't tell >you. The Mystery is that which is revealed which lies beyond human >capacity to demonstrate, relay, or express. The Catholic encyclopedia did a >great job expressing that.
What you've said is basically true, however, "secrets" are also a part of Mystery Religions Anise. Again, I repeate, this isn't my defintion of them -- this is the definition of them. Mystery religions will have *both* elements within them -- the personal exploration and experience of that which is "the mystery" which is reveal by the Seeker, as well as "secrets" of that particular sect/faith/cult/ect. which are revealed to the *initiate*.
>Modern Mystery Traditions are tradtions in which primary understanding of >God, the Divine, the Sacred, the Universe, whatever comes from such >revealed instruction.
Agreed.
>Its basis is primarily mystical--focusing on the bridge between that which >we can know and that which is ineffable. Traditions that rely instead on >passed down knowledge, recorded wisdom are called Wisdom Traditions, and >include Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc because there are a body of sacred >writings that form the primary canon of sacred knowledge. There is still mysticism and there are still mysteries, but they are secondary to the sacred >writings.
Yep, you're correct. I agree.
>Now, about this business about being initiated, there are two possibilities here. There is the physical initiation by a body or a person which essentially >lets you into their club,
You know, I'm not sure if your past experiences are affecting your choice of words, or if you've never considered how the usage of the word "club" can come off. I am a Student of a Mystery Religion/Faith/Tradition, which indeed not only has written, taught, and passed down Lore and yes even "secret Lore" too, but absolutely is dependant upon the the individual Seeker's personal exploration and revelation of that which is "The Mysery." However, to say that initiations and secrets are akin to mere "clubs" is well, somewhat offensive to me Anise.
>and then there's divine initiation, or course changins, where God bestows >enlightenment. IIRC, the Eleusinian Mysteries (i can never spell that right, >and don't make me try and say it) were open to anyone.
Eleusinian. You had it correct.
>Anyone could go and participate. But that doesn't mean that everyone >"understood" the rite. Some would go and think "yeah that was great" and >others might go and have their eyes opened. And that opening of the >eye, that transparency between God and man, is the initiation. That is >where the Mystery descends. ANd that experience is what defines a >mystery tradition.
That is absolutely correct. However, therein lies the "secret" -- however, I would disagree a little bit on how you view the Eleusinian Mysteries, how they were practiced, etc.-- but that is neither here nor there at this point in time.
>Without all of the above you don't have a Mystery Tradition. You have a >"Secret Handshake Club."
Of course! In every Mystery Religion there has to exist a component of the Seeker going through a personal transformation, awakening, and experience of that which is "The Mystery." However, to say that "secret knowledge" , etc. is never a part of, or not a part of Mystery Religions -- and that by having those they are compared to a "secret handshake club" is not only incorrect in my opinion/study, but a tad bit offensive to say the least.
The point is that most religions have mystical spects to them that don't necessarily follow what is outlined in that particular article.
James 
Mark 
and a new ticky on the way 
EDD 7-13-09
I generally assume Anise knows what she is talking about with this sort of thing because of her education in the subject but like I said it's not really a concern of mine other than it makes for interesting discussion. 
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