spiritual discussionsThis is the place at AW for mamas to learn about all different religions and beliefs, to ask questions, to give answers- all done with respect! if you don't have anything nice to say here- don't say anything at all.
Originally posted by ~Amypooh~ When did the Pope change his stance? I (perhaps incorrectly) remember the Pope taking a lot of criticism here in the US because he wouldn't say that birth control was acceptable. I believe a lot of Catholics just do it anyway.
I was just going to post this same thing.
It rings a particular bell with me because when my best friend got married her uncle (who is a priest & married them) was talking about their plans for children with her & she slipped up. Said something to the effect of "We'll make sure it won't be too soon" and had to backpedal.
Is there something in particular you are refering regarding bc issues?
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Angela; fiber obsessed, bellydancing, birth obsessed army wife & sahm to Katia & Luka
How do you explain the change in position on birth control? If it is now ok to use birth control, then the previous pope/popes that said it was not, were wrong......the Holy Spirit can't be wrong. One of them must not have been guided by the Holy Spirit.
Ditto to the above two posters. The Church has never changed her position on artificial birth control. It has never been acceptable. Maybe you are thinking of Natural Family Planning? That is considered acceptable because it works within the natural cycles God gave us and does not use an artificial means to remove the procreative aspect of sex. However, couples using NFP are called discern whether they really have a serious reason for delaying/avoiding pregnancy. There is a concern by some that NFP has become nothing more than Catholic birth control and that some couples use it with a contraceptive mentality for selfish purposes. HTH.
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Maryalene
Proud Mama to Madeline, Donny and Max
i dont think it's really accurate to say Jesus founded the Christian church. My perosnally, i'd hand that redit to Paul.
I also think modern day Christianity should be called Paulanity to be more accurate. But that is OT.....and from my limited knowdlege, just more of how I feel from what I have read and do know.
"We believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Pope in a special way. As a result, he makes decisions regarding church practices and can speak infallibly regarding doctrinal issues."
How do you explain the change in position on birth control? If it is now ok to use birth control, then the previous pope/popes that said it was not, were wrong......the Holy Spirit can't be wrong. One of them must not have been guided by the Holy Spirit.
This was also a problem I had with my former (and still admired and sometimes missed) faith/religion....It actually ended up being a huge problem for me. I wonder how many other religions other than Catholicism and Mormonism are like this?
Why does the new pope choose a name to go by? Why do they not use their given name? And can they choose any name? I find this really interesting. Something I never got to ask in my adult RIC (not sure if that is the correct name) classes since I refused to go through the anullment process and stopped the classes.
I've been reading with interest what Time magazine has been covering regarding the passing of the Pope and with the election of a new one and saw that they (popes) choose a new name when they are elected and accept the call.
This is what I heard about the name-change thing. I could be wrong though.
I heard that wayyyyyyy back, one of the popes had a pagan-sounding name (Can't remember what it was; now I need to go and find out again!) and decided he could not be a pope with that name so he changed it. Ever since then the pope has always chosen a new name.
Hold on......gotta check on what his name was......
Found it! Copied it so I didn't have to retype it:
New Life, New Name
As the newly elected pope accepts his new role, it is tradition for him to select a new name. This papal tradition dates to 533 and the election of Pope John II, whose birth name was Mercurius, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia. Mercurius is derived from Mercury, a pagan Roman god. Believing that a successor of St. Peter should not carry a name belonging to a pagan religion, Mercurius chose to change his name upon his election to honor a previous pope.
While some that followed John II chose to retain their original name, it soon became commonplace for new popes to choose a new moniker. The name change also symbolizes the new life that the new pope is entering as the head of the Catholic Church. Typically, the new pope selects the name of his favorite Saint or a former pope whom he admires.
John Paul II chose his name to honor his predecessor, John Paul I, who died just 33 days after being elected pope. John Paul I chose his name to honor predecessors Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI.
__________________ Janet -
Mom to Mary "gotta go to work!" 12-11-90
Hannah "Bubbie" 1-21-01
Kali "Peetie" 5-5-03
and wife to the wonderful, the awesome, the fabulous, the one and only, Alex since 9-16-00
While I don't agree with most of Catholicisms religious beliefs (besides Jesus being the Saviour) I seem to drawn to it like a bug to a light.
I'm often very curious why they do this, that and the other and usually can't find anyone irl that can answer my questions. I usually get a "just because" answer.
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Your children will become what you are; so be what you want them to be.
- David Bly
When did the Pope change his stance? I (perhaps incorrectly) remember the Pope taking a lot of criticism here in the US because he wouldn't say that birth control was acceptable. I believe a lot of Catholics just do it anyway.
That's the way I remember it, too.
Perhaps Catholics are just like everyone else, we don't always do as we are told.
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My beloved spake, and said to me. Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone. The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of the birds is come and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land. This is from the greatest love story of all time
I think the reason is that for many Catholics, religion is not a topic open for discussion as much as it is who you are. For example, I was always taught to do the right thing because it was the right thing, not because of love of Jesus or fear of hell. I am sure that the idea of what was right was because of my family's long tradition of Catholic Christianity. Also, I grew up in an area where everyone was Catholic, so there was no need for discussion. I was about 18 when I first found out that there were people who think Catholics are not Christian or that we don't read the bible. It wasn't until I was tested by non Catholics that I learned the why's. ALso, keep in mind that infallibility with reagrd to the Pope is limited to very little of what he does. The man is not infallible, and much of what he says, does, and writes, is not considered infallible. That is why Catholics can disagree on some issues and not on others (like a marries priesthood and whether a war is just or not).
I guess, I still don't understand a bunch after reading all of this. After Christ died, he left the Holy Spirit to those who follow Him. Therefore, the Holy Spirit gives wisdom and understanding to any who seek it and believe in Christ's death and resurrection. Having said that, that makes the pope no different than any other man. It seems that the only difference given this man, is the glory that other men give him, in regards to his title, and his authority. When you see thousands upon thousands of people gathering to see a man given a worldly title (no different than the title of Principal, or CEO of a company), many of whom are crying (for what reason I am unsure), it sure looks like men giving glory unto another man.
In Revelation 19, when an angel spoke to John, and John fell at his feet to worship and give glory to him, the angel quickly rebuked him, telling Paul not to give glory unto him but to give glory unto God. Since the Bible says ALL men are sinners, surely man ought not get more glory than angels who have always served God, and even the angel said No to that glory. Can't the pope see that he himself has created and encouraged the glory by taking the title, by accepting the glory given him, by allowing the people to look to HIM instead of looking to the Holy Spirit inside? The pope is no greater a man than a robber in a prison cell. I know some may think I am being terrible to say so, but it is true. Men are ALL sinners. The man who robs people, and the murderer in death row, are no different before God than the person who has done good works, and sought to keep his heart pure. Because even the purest of people is dingy in God's sight. None of us have more worth than another, but we are glorifying this man, the pope, as if he does.
This really stood out to me when I was reading the Bible recently: They are speaking of the teachers of the law and the Pharisees (public religious folk, in what the world would call, prestigious positions).
Matthew 23: 5-10
"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassles on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and for men to call them 'Rabbi' But you are not to be called 'Rabbi" for you only have one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'Father' for you have one Father, and he is in Heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher', for you have one teacher, the Christ.
That scripture speaks of giving and accepting glory by worldly titles that take the glory away from where it should be, and that is on the ultimate Rabbi, Father, and Teacher.
The whole position/title of pope just doesn't seem to jive with the teachings of the Bible.
I understand what you are saying Charity, and I have no doubt that some people take love and respect for the pope to the point of papal worship, which is not right. He is just a man - a sinner like every one else. But he is our holy father on earth, and therefore, IMO, worthy of special respect and admiration. Also, Pope John Paul II was extraordinarily humble from everything I have seen. In all the writings and homilies I have heard, he was very, very clear that he was just a sinner and all the glory goes to God and all good things come from Him.
As I mentioned before, we believe Peter was entrusted with the "keys to the kingdom" by Jesus to ensure that his Church wouldn't lose its way. Here's an article that goes into way more detail than I ever could to explain why we believe this:
Yes, the Holy Spirit guides each of individually in our prayer and actions. However, I believe because we are sinful humans who may be inclined to interpret scripture to fit our own agenda, God established the Church on earth. I would be more convinced that the Church wasn't needed if there weren't so many different protestant denominations and countless interpretations of scripture passages. To me, it seems as if the same Holy Spirit were guiding us as we were reading the same scriptural passages, we would all have the same interpretation. It is also confusing to me that scriptural interpretation changes over time. For example, the idea of the rapture is a relatively new (circa 1930) interpretation of scripture. These discrepancies lead me to think that divinely instituted Church is necessary.
I agree w/ what you have said; I just have a hard time getting those words out without hurting someones feelings.
It seems that the Pope is given authority on interpretting the Bible and telling his denomination exactly what it means. In my denomination, however, we are encouraged to seek the Word for ourselves. This is where I get really confused. The Bible was written for me to understand, and for me to understand it, I must seek its Word - not seek a lay person. If I don't understand what I have read, then I should seek the Holy Spirit to explain it to me more in depth (I also pray before reading that the Holy Spirit guides me to read what I need and to understand the words).
I'm also really confused of how the Catholic church thinks she is *the* church and kind of about the idea that it that the church and the pope must come from the lineage of Peter. Technically, we all come from this line, all of mankind traces back to Adam, therefore, Peter comes from Adam, and so do I.
Quote:
Yes, the Holy Spirit guides each of individually in our prayer and actions.However, I believe because we are sinful humans who may be inclined to interpret scripture to fit our own agenda,
This is a fascinating quote and I want to touch on it, but lack the words at the moment.
I hope I haven't offended anyone because it is not my intentions.
Yes, the Holy Spirit guides each of individually in our prayer and actions. However, I believe because we are sinful humans who may be inclined to interpret scripture to fit our own agenda, God established the Church on earth.
But the thing is, if the pope is a man like anyone else, a sinner no less, then he too is/can be inclined to interpret scripture to fit his own agenda, or the agenda of his followers. His interpretation of scripture is no less inclined to be corrupted by the sinful nature as is my own.
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Originally Posted by maryalene
He is just a man - a sinner like every one else. But he is our holy father on earth, and therefore, IMO, worthy of special respect and admiration.
What makes him holy if he is a man, and a sinner? I thought only God was holy? It seems he is being placed up on the same pedestool as the Lord himself? I know that I personally would never want to stand before the Lord, having allowed people to call me holy, or having allowed people to have equated me with God himself, when I know that all scripture says that I am merely a sinful man in need of saving Grace from He who IS holy.
And why do people refer to him as "Father" (let alone a holy one, when he is merely a sinful man) as the above scripture says we are not to do?
I don't think anyone is placing the Pope right up there with God. Also, what is considered infallible is very little of what he does. I think if you want a scripture debate, you can have one (but not here). I do think there are a few questions that you might ask yourself if you go to church. One, does the preacher/pastor interpret scripture for you in his sermons? Chances are that he does. This is not different from what the Pope does. Does your church have some rules that it sets down for the congregation? How is this different from what the Pope does? With either of these points, a man can also intepret to suit his own agenda. This would be the case with any human institution. I have a question for you. Why so much hostility towards the Catholic Church? Interestingly, I have never heard a Catholic priest (much less the Pope) in my lifetime of being Catholic say that any peron of any other religion was going to hell or speak disrespectfully of them in any way.
we don't always do as we are told. 
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