of course it doesn't. No one has said that during the Bush administration the blame is shared over multiple sources but that whatever happens during Obama's administration will be him and him alone. Don't insult our intelligence, Gwen, with something so incredibly idiotic, okay?
okay, I know this was a typo, and I totally get what you're trying to say and I hear you... but this was the funniest damn typo I've seen in awhile.
Nice Jodi. That makes me feel really great, that that was soooooo funny to you.
I've stepped away from this thread but had to come back to see what typo I made. I have to go back to figuring out how to make this crap from the food pantry last 2 weeks.
OK this was longwinded, and I must attend to other duties. I am happy that the two of you talk and I think that until we can break away support from the hard-liners on both sides, peace will be ephemeral at best and entirely absent at worst.
Isaac
Thanks, Isaac for a lovely post.
~Linda
edited to bold a very important idea.
Hana and Gwen and Sandi, I'm sorry all of you are feeling slammed. I think that when politics are involved it's so easy to speak what you believe passionately and may inadvertantly say things that hurt others.
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tyuipos?? NAK
Rivka; mother of A, N, and R & the twins me
Location: So let them talk about us, let them call us funny things, people sometimes do. I dont care as long as you know I love you. Oh, and you know I do
Posts: 45,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by hana
Hugs, Gwen, wanna join me on the bench over here for people who feel personally slammed (not on this post)? Sandi's welcome, too.
Hugs, Gwen, wanna join me on the bench over here for people who feel personally slammed (not on this post)? Sandi's welcome, too.
It'll be okay; we'll have margaritas.
Well, I was coming over to say that I'm out. On this and the other thread. Too tired. Not worth continuing. Maybe even not worth starting.
Instead of sitting on the bench to drink our margaritas while watching all this, can we go have our margaritas elsewhere? That's where I'm headed. elsewhere.
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Jonathan
Louisburg Cider Mill
October 2009
"Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law?
Jesus said until him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And, the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments have all the law and the prophets."
You can't blame the consumer for buying more house than they can afford or not being able to pay their own mortgage either. 80% of new mortgages during that time period (that I was referencing by associating the time with Bush's administration) were subprime - adjustable rates, balloon payments, you name it. It was the epitome of predatory lending.
But, bull**** that it's because people buy more house than they can afford. You cannot only hold the home buyers responsible.
Um, I absolutely can blame the consumer that bought more house than they can afford. How can you not?! It's called living within your means and knowing that just because the bank will approve you to buy a $300k house doesn't mean you need to buy one that expensive.
Predatory lenders also hold a big share of the blame... absolutely, but consumers need to be accountable for their part in it as well.
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Aimee
Mamaaaa to Kenna (6/97), Jake (3/99) & Josh (8/01)
Kenna's first CC meet - 1mi in 7:56!
The funny thing is I usually stay miles away from threads like this. I have no idea what's possessed me to be so bold and come away happy to have paricipated.
My sister had requested that I comment on Obama, who I support (although he is still to the right of me- but has been by far the best possibility since Carter). But I could not help but comment on the discussion between you and my sister. As a sociologist, I know that people often focus in on particular aspects of events without placing them in their context. Whereas I have never lived nor in Israel, nor in the Occupied West Bank or besieged Gaza, I have read and followed from different sides. While the videos my sister presented were sensationally focussed on the development of anti-Israeli violence and its reification- they did not even mention the reification of anti-Palestinian violence. The last video on there was trying to build up hatred, fear and resentment towards Palestinians an was not geared towards trying to understand or resolve any predicament.
Nothing was said about Israelis bulldozing Palestinian homes, invading territories, humiliating people or destroying Olive groves. The picture was entirely one-sided. Israel has also resisted and sabotaged peacemaking efforts. If they don't teach hatred of Palestinians "formally" they also do it informally. I have seen and heard enough to know that no one has the right to claim that the other is entirely evil. I am anti-colonialist, anti-racist, pro-peace and pro-social justice. The expulsion of thousands of Palestinians from their homes in the "Nakba" was enough to plant seeds of hatred and resentment. Followed by wars, demolitions, state terror and reprisals. On the other hand- it would appear that there is little distinction between Jews and the policies of the Israeli state. The two do differ, even if the Israel state would like it to seem as if they did not. I was very angry and ashamed when Israel invaded Lebanon in 06. They never mentioned the kidnapping of the Palestinian doctor beforehand. But Shalit's name is always remembered.
What is needed in part is the work of groups like B'Tselem, Rabbis for Human Rights, The Shalom Center- what is needed is Jewish empathy (and action) to oppose the occupation and demand that Israel follow international law. In Mandinka they say "Kunu kantalaa bua yaa je" which means roughly translated that "A person does not see their own side of a problem. Also it is important to understand the reality of the Holocaust, and where that put the survivors and the effects it has had on the psyche of survivors. It does not excuse any additional wrong-doing just as targeting Israeli civilians is inexcusable as well. The fact is all of the violence towards either side is abhorrent. But it is not an unreasonable demand to ask for a state, where to visit a family member, one does not have to pass through hundreds of checkpoints, or to be treated as a human being. The situation is complex, but it is made worse with each act of violence, no matter who is targeted. Israelis also join the army. Armies are place where people teach children to hate and kill the "enemy" And many Israelis grow up looking at Palestinians as the enemy, some backed by a fundamentalism that says that it is ok to push others from their land because "God gave it to us"- so they don't have to deal with the socio-political complexities of reality.
I would venture to say that most Israelis do not even know what life is like for a Palestinian in the occupied territories.
I hope that one day sooner than later, that a deal will be brokered and followed, that the Israelis will withdraw, and rebuild the homes they have bulldozed, and replant the groves that they destroyed- share the water fairly for all involved. I also hope that there will be an immediate end to violence on all sides, and that Palestinians, will more and more share a positive view- or at least look upon Jews as in some sense a victim of circumstance, Nazi-terror, and also huge geo-political forces. That the will see the diversity within. Like all other groups Jews consist of exploiters and exploited, and victims and victimizers. Although the reality of any one individual supersedes this simplistic dichotomy.
My most sincere apologies for all you and the Palestinians have suffered at not only the hands of Israelis, but of others and of each other. If in spite of my strong secular leanings, I were to say a prayer, it would be for one of peace. I support an end to the aggression on Iraq (an I mean aggression in the legal sense of the term) to the air-raids on Afghanistan (which account for deaths of hundreds of innocent people and the total destruction of families) and an end to the acute economic disparities that grip our world where the 3 richest people have more wealth the the GDP of ALL least developed nations and their 600 million people combined (-UN stat).
And as for Obama, I am happy that the US is moving in a more sensible direction and I wish him well, and that he will not cave under any conservative pressure. Since the right wanted to make this about socialism, I think the people have to some degree spoken in favor of several socialist precepts. Ati-racist, sharing the resources of society in a more fair and equitable way, looking at health care more as a human right- but at the same time I m aware that Obama is not a socialist (I am) and that he can't change everything overnight.
OK this was longwinded, and I must attend to other duties. I am happy that the two of you talk and I think that until we can break away support from the hard-liners on both sides, peace will be ephemeral at best and entirely absent at worst.
Um, I absolutely can blame the consumer that bought more house than they can afford. How can you not?! It's called living within your means and knowing that just because the bank will approve you to buy a $300k house doesn't mean you need to buy one that expensive.
Predatory lenders also hold a big share of the blame... absolutely, but consumers need to be accountable for their part in it as well.
Exactly. Accepting responsibility for our actions is something our generation has a huge problem with.
and Gwen, it really irritates me how every time you disagree with me you make some comment about 'knowing who your friends are'. If you're only willing to be my friend when I agree with you, that speaks volumes to me.
I'm sorry. I believe strongly in personal responsibility.
Sandi, no one forced y'all to take the mortgage that you did. You chose to. You chose to buy another house before selling the previous one and no one forced you to do that either. You made those choices. Not necessarily a bad choice, but they ARE choices, and they are choices that you made with the belief that it was the best choice for your family. I couldn't care less what choices you made for your family, by any means - seriously. That being said, if you choose to blame others for the choices that you've made, I can't agree with that. Yes, I understand that the current state of the economy sucks, and that many fields of employment are really struggling - and I'm not saying it hasn't. I *am* saying that you can't completely blame the president, you have to accept that your decisions played into your situation.
and if people only want to be my friend if I agree completely with them, then that's a friendship I don't need. I'm past jr. high, thank you very much. My opinions are my opinions, and I don't bend to peer pressure anymore. I value people who are able to think intelligently, accept responsibility for themselves and their actions, own their words and who respect our differences and enjoy what we have in common. It's completely unrealistic to believe that we'll agree on everything all the time. I'm sure as hell not a liberal democrat, and if that's what I need to be to have someone's "friendship".. well, that's simply not going to happen.
I'm staying away from this thread of wallowing in self-pity and anger from now on. Have fun y'all.
As another person caught up in the housing crisis, I just want to comment on some of the posts that I've read about personal responsibility.
We bought our house in Oct '06. Our mortgage was a 2yr fixed and then after the 2 yrs, it went to an ARM. Dh is self employed and even after 2 yrs of working towards perfecting our credit, our score was very good, but not high enough to get a better deal. The plan was to refi before the change. There was no reason at that time to believe that we would have any trouble refinancing.
Then the reality hit.
In the second year after moving in, large numbers of homes in our area became victims of foreclosure. The market was saturated with houses that were being sold through short sales, pre-forclosures and foreclosure sale. When you have 15 homes in your neighborhood of 200+ homes that are sitting vacant and for sale, it doesn't reflect well on values.
Dh's business is in restaurant equipment. When the economy went south, people started eating out less often. When they eat out less often, existing restaurants choose to stick with their older equipment, rather than buying new. Equipment repair earns far less than sales of new equipment. Also, when the economy slows, there are fewer new restaurants opening. Our family biz has been hit hard by this economy. Our income was cut by more than 50% from 2005 to 2007. Losing half of your income is pretty tough to handle.
I'm not going to list all of our personal setbacks over the last few years, but suffice it to say that even the best laid plans can fall to circumstances beyond your control.
I've read time and again about people buying more house than they can afford and now their in trouble. This house was *not* more than we could afford. Our business has existed for 12 yrs. For the 5 yrs prior to taking out our mortgage, our income rose at a steady rate. Our business was healthy and we believed it was going to continue that way.
When our income dropped and the house values fell, refinancing was suddenly out of reach. When you are faced with a 50% drop in income and a 50% increase in mortgage payment, it's pretty hard to make that work.
I understand that is the risk we took when choosing a mortgage that would change to an ARM after 2 yrs. We, unfortunately, didn't have the luxury of getting a fixed rate in our position at that time. Sure, we could have chosen not to buy this house. I completely own responsibility for that choice. However, when your son gets jumped 2x in your own neighborhood and then eventually faces having a knife pulled on him, it's pretty tempting to look for a way out. The house we chose was very reasonably priced for this area. We weren't going for luxury, we went for stability and safety.
The whole point of this is that it's easy to sit back in judgment and say, well that's why *we* went with a fixed rate. Not everyone had that option. There are a whole lot of people out there who did not anticipate this turn of events. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.
Really, the only ones who *did* know for certain that this mess was going to happen were the banking and mortgage industry themselves and the people in Washington. The former chose greed over common sense and wanted to keep getting while the getting was good, the latter chose to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear.
*They* are the ones with the real culpability in this mess.
So, if you want to sit in judgment because some people made choices that *you* didn't make, have at it. Funny thing is, we all have to make choices and do the best we can with the information and resources we have available at the time - from the people on message boards who buy pricey diapers when prefolds will serve just as well and later find themselves in a position of facing unanticipate expenses - to those who wanted a better life and in better times could manage, only to have the rug pulled out from underneath their feet.
Yes, there were many people who made very poor decisions, that even they knew at the time were incredibly risky. There were many others who didn't. All too often, in posts here and elsewhere, I see where it appears that everyone caught up in this is lumped together. It seems like there are some saying that if you are dealing with this, then it's your own fault.
As for me - since I'm not privvy to each individual's circumstances that lead to decisions they make, I'll choose compassion rather than judgment.
I forgot that I also wanted to add another thank you to Rivka's brother Isaac for that post. Thank you also to Rivka for asking him to add his thoughts.
Rivka, Isaac and Randah your posts in this thread have been very informative and I appreciate the opportunity to hear from you. I also admire the respect and dignity with which you have all posted on what must be such a difficult topic to discuss.
Um, I absolutely can blame the consumer that bought more house than they can afford. How can you not?! It's called living within your means and knowing that just because the bank will approve you to buy a $300k house doesn't mean you need to buy one that expensive.
Predatory lenders also hold a big share of the blame... absolutely, but consumers need to be accountable for their part in it as well.
Sheesh between you getting all Dave Ramsey and Jody throwing around terms like "personal responsibility" (you can't just say that to a democrat!!!) no wonder we're running them all off! Sheeeeeeeesh!! Living within your means. Pfftt.
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~*~Tiffany~*~
"Receive the children with reverence.
Educate them in love.
Send them forth in freedom."
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