Location: When I dare to be powerful -- to use my strength in the service of my vision, then it becomes less and less important whether I am afraid.
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Frugal? Or Moral? Meandering thoughts this morning....
I have been thinking about this a lot. I hang out on the LLNOE board and I think about it. I am not one of those people who just saves money where ever I can. I lower my expectations of what my money can do for me to stay moral in my choices. Or at least I strive for that. Does that make sense? (I am posting this here and NOT there becuase I know it does to many of you...)
Like Black Friday. The idea that you have to be up at dawn and fight all of these other people for a 'thing' is rediculous to me. I don't support it, and I probably never will again (only place I used to go is JoAnn's, but I have gotten pickier there too).
I'd like to say it is my morals that is holding me back, but mostly it's just the older I get the pickier I get. And the more full my house gets the less I need... I replace things with nothing short of the top of the line... and I don't replace them until I can afford the top of the line, so I deal with Goodwill stuff a lot, and that is ok with me. Becuase even there I am picky and won't buy unless I love it.
I don't understand two things about modern culture. What is that pull to buy just cus it is on sale? And why buy things for people just because it's Christmas?
When I tried to do this (only for one year when I was with Chris 11 years ago) I found myself buying something for one person, and then two for the next, and then feeling bad because it wasn't even so having to find MORE for the first person just to make myself feel better. And sometimes they would never know... like they lived in different states. lol... It was stupid. And I spent a lot of time wondering why we were buying all this stuff... to apease our guilt?
Does anyone know what I mean?
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Val; Living the dream we have been working towards for over 5 years.
Mama to Alex, Cyan, and Logan. Wife to my very best friend.
Yeah, I totally get that. I looked through all the black friday ads and because there was nothing I wanted I was thinking, what's the big deal? But I guess for someone who was looking for something in particular then that would be awesome. Well, I take that back, my husband wanted the $4 coffee maker at Walmart to take to work, but I wasn't getting up at 4am to get it. They still had a huge end cap of them a week later so he got one after all.
I get the nicer items epiphany too. We used the nastiest flaking rusting teflon pans that we had gotten for our wedding and refused to buy new until we could afford a pan sat that would last a life time. A few years later we got our tax return and bought a set of all clad pans.
We did the same with the stove and washer/dryer, although I highly regret these purchases and are praying that stupid flat top electric stove breaks down so I can have a cheap gas stove.
Then there's the front loader washer that refuses to get my clothes and diapers clean. GRRRRRR! It's so hard to know what that long lasting purchase is going to be.
Might I add that our bathroom has been sitting unfinished without a sink or nice flooring for over a year because I'm saving up for an old fashioned bathtub. I totally get it.
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Tara
Wife to Bryan (7yrs)
Momma to Noah Scott 11/24/00,
Meadow Day 3/24/02,
and Petal Brynne 2/02/05
ISO: Mother-Ease OS diaper, Luke's Drawers Good Night Kisses (white), & AIO or Pocket diapers Size L with snaps
I don't understand two things about modern culture. What is that pull to buy just cus it is on sale?
My MIL and my BIL/SIL do this. I'll start with my MIL. She has pretty much no money. Why? She's in debt. She gets her paycheck and pays the bills including the minimum on her credit card. Then the leftover money is spent, usually at the dollar store. Why? Because it's such a fabulous deal! She saved so much money! But then something happens. She's back at the store for groceries and happens across x and y widgets that are such a fabulous price she's sure she'll never see them so cheap again! So she must buy them (with the credit card because she spent her money). Then she will complain about her credit card and how the balance never goes down and will say, "I know I bought x and y widget but they were a good price, I needed them and I know I'll never see them that cheap again!"
And I want to puke.
Then there's BIL and SIL. Living off every gov't program and LYING (this is where I have issues, I think gov't assistance is there for a reason and too many people abuse it) about their income to do so. They have a home biz that makes a good amount, more than enough to live on plus they collect rent for another house and they work under the table for family members. Here's what they do: (example) Did you see our new wood splitter? We got a great deal on it. Lowe's was having a 10% off sale and we need the log splitter for the shop so it's a business expense. It will save so much work. It only cost $1500. Since we made $3000 in orders and sales last week we figured business is picking up and soon it will be easy to pay the bills (or so I've heard for three years).
Another example two months later:
Hey, Did R tell you? We took out another mortgage on the house and paid off our cc's with it (nevermind that they inherited that house AND another house and owed $0 on it before, took out one mortgage and now have two). Did you see the computers we bought? We had a few thousand left over and decided the kids needed their own computer so we gave them the two old ones and R & I each got one. They count as business expenses. Now we just have to pay back the bank for overdraft fees for the past few months and we'll have no debt.
A week later:
Hubby bought me this new ($200) cell phone for Valentines day. I didn't like my old one. Isn't this one pretty!
A month later:
We bought X's home biz for a few thousand. It didn't come with many supplies, mostly we were purchasing her customer list to add onto ours. We took out a business loan for it.
And yes, they were black friday shopping. Because look at all the great deals!
Man, I feel sick remembering all of that. It's all about the possessions in this area. If you don't have anything, you're worthless, more or less.
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They say that time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself.
Andy Warhol
Location: if this were the wrong decision you'd already know it
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hey now - the ipods I got on BF were on sale I saved $22 on them
That's *something*
But, yeah - I've gone through phases this holiday season - not being able to really shop like I have in years past.
Right now, I'm content. I feel a tiny bit bad about the people who won't get anything this season, but I know that they will understand and my Dad has said he's glad because there's nothing they need and that Christmas is for the kids.
Well, y'all can tell me if I'm wrong about what will follow. I'm totally okay with that
I really like the idea of this forum. Simplicity. I do not want more stuff. I do not want to waste (and for me it feels like a waste) to spend my time shopping. It is not something I either enjoy or value. I don't care for consumerism. I value simplicity. I do not need or want more stuff. For many reasons. And, I hate the manipulation of sales.
But, I do not participate in this forum because for me it has nothing to do with thrift. I have found - for me - that over the years when I focus on thrift I tend to accumulate more crap.
"wow, I have a $25 off coupon for Ann Taylor Loft. I wasn't actually thinking of shopping right now and I don't actually need anything, but I just cannot see throwing money away, so instead of not shopping, I'm going to go and spend money I wasn't going to spend on something I don't need just because it is on sale."
I have routinely found that the things that I have gone back and forth on, putting on hold, then reconsidering, but then never getting out of my mind until I go back and spend more than I actually budgetted myself are the exact same things that I have worn over and over and over again, but yet those things that I bought because it was a good deal (!!!) are the very things that become clutter.
So, I don't shop because marketing tells me I must. I shop when I have determined there is a need, have made my decision out of the stores, and just purchase the thing I need - even if it is spendy. Hence, why I don't hang out here. I feel that my approach/attitude is not included.
And, ultimately, who cares why one person choses to wake before the **** crows in order to shop black friday and why one person doesn't. Who cares if it is frugal or moral? What ultimately matters is what YOU (the generic you) value be it frugality or a self-moral position of non-consumerism. I don't think that one person is inherently more or less moral (or right) than another based upon their relationship with consumerism (so long as they are able to meet their finacial needs).
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Rebecca, wife and mother
Happy Holidays
(and it was the best I could do - I gave it three different photoshoots)
Location: When I dare to be powerful -- to use my strength in the service of my vision, then it becomes less and less important whether I am afraid.
Posts: 9,502
Becca... I agree with a lot of what you were saying. And like I said, it wasn't to make people wrong with what I was saying, it was just random thoughts. That was all. But then I have moments... like with the way my dh is. Well, I watch him (a successful, extremely tallented (in two careers now) man) get sucked in by the consumerism and I no longer think that it is just a frusteration on my part... I actually start thinking it is wrong. It feels wrong... it hurts people.
Right now I am reading "The Omnivore's Delima"... basically the book talks about how we are a young mixed culture country are not bound by rules of culture that have been proven over many many years, and so therefore we are completely obsessed with being healthy and the least healthy developed country pretty much on the planet.
I think that same thing applies to consumerism. We haven't had long enough to develop rigorous moral codes (or cutulral codes, which don't have to be moral perse') that dictate what we buy, how we buy it, and when we should get it. We are "free" and so therefore we can do whatever we want, which includes nearly killing ourselves to pay for debt, and eat things that slowly distroy our insides without a second thought as to why, because as a culture, less than a hundred years into our becoming a country, the industrialized world had taken over, and as they say in Sea Buisket: "that was the end and the begining of imagination, all at the same time". So basically, our cultural codes are written on the "if you want it, you SHOULD have it" ...even if it isn't good for you or you don't have the money.
This may all be inane babble... and that is totally ok with me, it was just where my head was... and in the true spirit of being dramatic, I thought I would put it out there for others to see and critique.
Mostly though, I don't buy things becuase they are a good deal. If I wasn't going to spend money in the first place, it doesn't save me money to get something on a killer deal. It just doesn't. I don't clip coupons, I don't save box tops, I don't worry about whether or not something will be cheaper next week... unless I was already planning on buying it before I saw that it was on sale.
Val
Last edited by BlueRoseMama : 12-02-2007 at 06:08 PM.
Shoot Val, random thoughts are the entire way I communicate that's my favorite type of converstations. Rambling and tangential and from deep inside one's head.
I loved The Omnivore's Dilemma. Great book. Totally changed how we approach our food purchases. Went from buying all at Whole Foods (and feeling oh so good about it) to growing our own, farmer's market, local for dairy and eggs, and actually paying for a deer our neighbor hunted to be processed.
While I did say that I don't care what and how others chose to spend money that they have to spend (but it is critical that they have it to spend; I guess it is one of those I did it so you can to stances, but I went from major credit card, automobile, and student loan debt to debt free because of choices I made; so I do have issues with spiraling down to a point where bankruptcy looks like the only way) . . . anyway, back to the point (see meandering thoughts). I don't care for the most part, but I do have my personal priorities and values and often see others spending in ways that is counter to my values.
Clearly we - as a nation - have a huge problem with consumer debt. We want what we want when we want it and it seems as if want has become need has become entitlement.
Then, on the other hand, I know that I'm judged for spending choices I and my family make and people think, "I cannot believe she is spending that kind of money on that."
Location: When I dare to be powerful -- to use my strength in the service of my vision, then it becomes less and less important whether I am afraid.
Posts: 9,502
I do want to make it clear that I DO, 100%, buy Christmas gifts for people. I do do this. But I like to buy gifts for people in general. I like to make things, I like to plan gifts, I enjoy it... so I do it. Christmas is a good excuse to do that... but it has been a long time since I have found something on sale and said "Who could I buy this for?" It is the person that dictates the gift, not the gift that dictates the person.
Location: When I dare to be powerful -- to use my strength in the service of my vision, then it becomes less and less important whether I am afraid.
Posts: 9,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunflower_Momma
Clearly we - as a nation - have a huge problem with consumer debt. We want what we want when we want it and it seems as if want has become need has become entitlement.
How many people would see it this way though? You know? That is my problem. I used to live in a more rural area. The only real place to shop was Walmart (since they moved in and the two large stores that were "local" died... ), so you would see, all the time, people going in there, in super cheap, made in China clothing that wasn't going to last another two months, to get plastic toys and more cheap clothing, on credit, for their kids who can't close their bedroom doors because they have so much cheap plastic crap, including their own TV and DVD player in there because they are always bored and mom is watching the tv in the living room. I realize I am being totally judgemental. I am. But there is no blame... it isn't their fault! That is where this culture will steer you (not to black friday... to that over consumerism that kills you)... that is the way we are set up! How fricken scary is that???
(Judged? We are ALL judged, sister. Just the other day I had someone's mouth GAPING becuase I told her I had an 11 1/2 year old when she thought that Logan was my only child. Alex came in to hand me something and her mouth nearly hit the floor. You have HOW many kids? She asked... "three".... and he's yours? "Yes" And how old are you?)
so you would see, all the time, people going in there, in super cheap, made in China clothing that wasn't going to last another two months, to get plastic toys and more cheap clothing, on credit, for their kids who can't close their bedroom doors because they have so much cheap plastic crap, including their own TV and DVD player in there because they are always bored and mom is watching the tv in the living room.
Are you serious, Val?!?! You would look at someone going into Walmart and think any of this? Why? because they were shopping at Walmart? Yeah, you admitted you were being judgmental, but I am truly shocked at the level of judgement in the above quote-- shocked.
Val - when I hung out at the other DR forum, I noticed the same thing. A lot of people there did analyze the price more than the need. I think it takes time to move away from consumerism. Paying off debt is a great step in that direction, because who *really* wants to go back once it's paid off?
I think this forum's title is actually spot on. Simplifying tends to be the priority, but we also discuss thrift in the context of simplifying. That and meeting basic needs. But pretty much all of us have categories where we feel the least expensive choice isn't necessarily the best for whatever reason. Frequently it does boil down to our own morality: don't want to support exploitation of people/animals/the land here in another country, so we buy fair trade, local, fuel efficient or organic. Often, I find that used is an option that suit my needs without creating more demand for resources. That and making do.
I actually shop the thrift store with a list. I don't buy things because they're bargains any more.
I did find that the months of compacting really affected me. I'd like to start again with the new year - the move made it impossible for a while. Some things simply had to be purchased new, but most of what we did was repair/scrounge/buy used even then. Paint wasn't preowned. But the floors were refinished, and the carpet we put in was made of coke bottles.
I haven't gotten a microwave here, because I'm not sure I even need one. But I will say we were out on Black Friday evening trying to replace DH's computer monitor. We ended up doing it another day.
(Judged? We are ALL judged, sister. Just the other day I had someone's mouth GAPING becuase I told her I had an 11 1/2 year old when she thought that Logan was my only child. Alex came in to hand me something and her mouth nearly hit the floor. You have HOW many kids? She asked... "three".... and he's yours? "Yes" And how old are you?)
I couldn't care much less about being judged for something about which I feel perfectly fine. I just know that we all judge and we are all judged.
I saved $22 on them 
), so you would see, all the time, people going in there, in super cheap, made in China clothing that wasn't going to last another two months, to get plastic toys and more cheap clothing, on credit, for their kids who can't close their bedroom doors because they have so much cheap plastic crap, including their own TV and DVD player in there because they are always bored and mom is watching the tv in the living room. I realize I am being totally judgemental. I am. But there is no blame... it isn't their fault! That is where this culture will steer you (not to black friday... to that over consumerism that kills you)... that is the way we are set up! How fricken scary is that??? 
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