amitymamaThe Attachment Parenting Community

woodfairie · 08-24-2002, 02:55 PM

"I don't think pot causes the depression. I think many people use marijuana (as well as alcohol, meth, etc etc) to escape from their problems"

I agree that this does frequently occur (people self-medicating their depression with marijuana). But there is also evidence that it works the other way too...people who begin using recreationally, and continue to use (chronically...for years on a daily or almost daily basis)...develop depressive disorders (or anxiety and other mood disorders) as a result of the marijuana use. In repeated studies, 1/3 of chronic users have shown mild forms of depressive, anxiety, or other mood disorders. In some people, the depression (or anxiety or ?) manifests when the person is intoxicated...in other people, it shows up during withdrawal. There are actually diagnoses for these: cannabis induced anxiety disorder, for example.

I also wanted to add that (maybe surprisingly?) I do support the legalization of all drugs...not because I think marijuana is harmless or I want to smoke it. I wish less people felt the need to use it or anything else...that people could feel the wonders of being high on the beauty of the world!! But I agree that people need treatment and not jail time. I do not think that illegal drugs are difficult to get even with the war on drugs...so it is obviously not working. I like the idea of people who are addicted to "bad stuff" like heroin having the option of trading in their dirty needles for clean needles....do they really need to get horrible diseases on top of their drug addiction??
so people really can be anti-drug but pro legalization!!

~Denise~ · 08-24-2002, 05:27 PM

Well, actually I do want it to remain illegal, and I don't like the idea of using it for anything other than medicinal purposes, under a doctors care. And I do believe it being illegal does stop some people, for sure. My sister being one....if it was legal, she would not worry about a drug test showing her up for pot, and losing her job....she refrains from using it, thank goodness, only for that reason. And think many other people don't do it, anf would, if it was legal.

ThirtySomething · 08-24-2002, 05:54 PM

I just haven't had a chance to. I kept poking my head in here with the super crunchies to see what's up.

I have several comments, none of which are likely new to the conversation.

Quote:

....and yes, cigarettes are the same way.....but I don't get high or a buzz off those....and I don't get drunk sitting next to a drinker......

This is interesting, but I think it is very unusual to get a second-hand buzz off mj. I've spent a lot of time in small tiny quarters filled with a lot of mj smoke and never once got a second-hand buzz. So, I'm not saying it didn't happen to you, but it is very unusual. Would I want it to be open season in public places? No. I personally love cigarette-free zones around me and I would picture it being the same way. Also, drinking is outlawed in many public places as well. I can see it fitting into the same category there as well. As far as smelling it from the porch? Wow! Your porches must be close!

Regarding marijuana causing depression? I agree with Arasmama that can be a method of escape like any substance. When you take away the method, the underlying feelings are still there. You don't get a total like transformation when you stop smoking pot.

I appreciate all of your comments Denise regarding having it away from children and home. However, I think you are underestimating some of the human race and also turning a bit of a blind eye towards the people who are going to live and function this way regardless of whether it is legal or not. Those types of people are already *endangering* their children by closing their windows and drapes and hiding it in their small dark houses. Even many of the hardcore cig smokers I know take it to a well-ventilated area now that second-hand smoke has proven so costly. Perhaps, they would choose to do it a different way too.

Many of my comments are likely off on a tangent too. I will say that I've worked with a combination of drunks and pot smokers in my day. I'd pick a pot smoker as a co-worker any day of the week. They don't show up at work hung over. I make this comment based on the partying usage of drugs/alcohol.

Just to clarify my position, I am not a pot smoker. I can count on one hand the number of times I've tried it. I have too much to do to be so *mellow*. LOL I never could stand that. I'd rather do a really strenuous hike and be high on life man....

Life it too short for that much rest. LOL

No one in my family smokes even occasionally. Dh and I are reformed cig smokers and will not go back. Our friends don't smoke pot or at least we don't discuss it so I'm assuming they don't and if they do, that's ok with me.

I've just spent a lot of time working with drunks and pot smokers of all types. We worked and lived together between 5 and 10 years. It is kind of hard to explain, but if I'm not making sense, I will try to elaborate more.

mamabear · 08-24-2002, 07:27 PM

Many people in this thread have touched on and eloquently said my opinion on marijuana. It should be legal, IMO, and so should all other drugs. Money should be put toward counseling, health care and education. I don't think anyone should ever be put in jail for a non-violent crime.

Oh, and on the organic issue, a lot of that varies by region. I've lived places where most pot is grown in Mexico on large fields, heavily sprayed with nasty pesticides. And I've lived places where most people who smoke pot know the person who grew it, how they grew it, and probably even helped take care of the plants.

Please remember when quoting textbooks and mainstream studies that most of the studies done on marijuana use and effects are inherently flawed, because they studied a population which usually uses other drugs: tobacco, cocaine, heroin, crack cocaine, etc, as well as marijuana, as well as of low socioeconomic status. So if you are looking at a population that has many other risk factors, and you find depression, lung damage, or what have you, what is to say that those negative effects are from pot and not from cocaine, meth, or even economic hardship? (For example, economic hardship is correlated with depression.)

Melanie Dreher did studies on a population that only smoked marijuana - the Jamaican Rastafarians. She studied prenatal exposure to marijuana and its effect on the babies after birth. These pregnant women were smoking *many* joints a day. She actually found *positive* effects on the babies who were exposed to the *most* pot prenatally. Here are direct quotes from her study:

Quote:

Measurements and main results. Exposed and nonexposed neonates were compared at 3 days and 1 month old, using the Brazelton Neonatal Assessment Scale, including supplementary items to capture possible subtle effects. There were no significant differences between exposed and nonexposed neonates on day 3. At 1 month, the exposed neonates showed better physiological stability and required less examiner facilitation to reach organized states. The neonates of heavy-marijuana-using mothers had better scores on autonomic stability, quality of alertness, irritability, and self-regulation and were judged to be more rewarding for caregivers.

Conclusions. The absence of any differences between the exposed on nonexposed groups in the early neonatal period suggest that the better scores of exposed neonates at 1 month are traceable to the cultural positioning and social and economic characteristics of mothers using marijuana that select for the use of marijuana but also promote neonatal development.

So she attributes the positive effect on the neurological development of the babies whose moms smoked the most pot to the better socioeconomic status of the moms. But clearly, her study also shows that there was no negative effect on the newborns of being exposed to pot prenatally.

Here's the link to the whole study:
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/...can-babies.htm

And in an interview she says this:

Quote:

Our testing showed that the children of women who used ganja had better alertness, stability and adjustment than children of women who didn't use ganja. This was measured at the age of one month. We measured children again at four years and at five years of age, and found that there were no apparent deficits in the children of marijuana-using mothers. In fact, in many ways, they were better off than children of non-smoking mothers. The ganja-using mothers also seemed better off than non-users.

Here's the link to the interview, it's awesome:
http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/1404.html

Pot is illegal for political and big-business reasons, as others have mentioned, not because it is inherently a bad substance. Like anything it has the potential to be misused and abused.

I have my sweet dd dancing on the back of my chair, so I will have to cut this short.

Edited because I don't feel comfortable having this paragraph remain after the recent, judgmental, scary posts in the mama market.

mamabear · 08-25-2002, 01:31 PM

You're welcome, Meeshi. I wish I could say more, too! But, the Internet is a public place.

Pixie's~Mama · 08-26-2002, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wendydagny

From what I remember, yes. My memory says that 1 complete marijuana cig= 2 packs of tobacco in terms of lung damage. But that may be because of the unfilter/filter thing. And I don't have a source on that-- just what's stuck in my head. [/b]

I just heard something about this on the talk radio the other day and I think the truth is the opposite. Researchers are currently looking at the reasons why marijuana smokers *don't* have diseased lungs like smokers.

I also participated in quite a bit of smoking in my heyday~heck, I even attended the Cannibus Cup in Amsterdam one year! LOL Even though I don't do it anymore, I think it should be legal. My thinking hasn't changed, even if my habits have.

Meagan

echo_78 · 08-26-2002, 12:56 PM

I think what somebody grows and consumes in their own home is nobody's business...assuming it is done responsibly (I am not saying share it with the children etc.). Personally I think the government spends too much money, and too much time locking up pot smokers when the real criminals are wandering the streets.

I don't smoke because I can't guarantee that the herb on the street is safe. I probably would if I could grow my own.

milo · 08-26-2002, 06:17 PM

maybe that's how it is envisioned...but the people who drink and smoke around here dont do it quietly on their porch as they watch the sunset lol. if it is legalised, it will be everywhere.

i actually went to a very liberal college and my soc prof was quite for legalization (the dupont issue is a big one)...but yes, it is way more toxic tot he lungs than cig smoe (not joint for cig...one joint is more potent/toxic to the lungs than many many cigs).

i am for it for medicinal purposes. thats it.

though they are few lol...there are some who will not try something simply because it is illegal. and no, most folks dont get violent on mj, but some *do* become very paranoid and freaked, lashing out in fear ( saw this one first hand). not to mention the impaired judgement. nothing like feeling groovy and banging the guy next to you and winding up with aids

of course, i think the same is true of alcohol and the enforcement of alcohol laws are a joke.

as for the other nations having lower usage rates...i will look into that further. but i do not think that is simply because it is legal there.

Quote:

Originally posted by rafe's mommy

The way I would envision it is that marijuana (and other currently illegal drugs, if they were legalized) would be regulated just as alcohol and tobacco are. Those regulations could include having to purchase from authorized dealers, or there would be a minimum age requirement, or it can only be consumed in a home or in a licensed establishment, etc.

Nanners · 08-26-2002, 08:20 PM

JIMO**** where do you stop? Legalize marijuanna...whats next
cocaine, LSD, Crack. Everyone will find a medical reason to use something for medical reasons that is currently a controlled substance. Anything that impairs your natural being IMO is wrong. As for depression...dope will just cover it up and not get to the root of the real problem. What happens when you get off the high? Gotta get high again to feel better....kwim?

I'm not trying to be critical or point fingers here. What you do and believe is your business. I've had my share of joints and trips. But that is in the past because it got me no where but the ditch. The day I had to pee in a cup for a great job with good pay and benefits, was the day I left all that stuff behind. Frankly, I don't miss it. I love to enjoy the TRUE beauty of the world around me. Yes, I suffer from depression, but the dope only made it worse. I truly believe I wouldn't be where I am today, if I stayed on that road. I'd most likely be dead...not necessarily from the drugs but by my own hand.

08-26-2002, 08:37 PM

i think pot should be legal. i think drinking is 10x's worse! and there are also many legal prescription drugs that are much more dangerous than weed! Oxycontin, and ketomine, to name a few. i think alot of money is wasted on fighting drugs.

Big Mama Hughes · 08-27-2002, 03:05 PM

But I don't use it, neither does my dh. In fact, dh is staunchly against anyone he cares about using it, BUT he also thinks it should be legalized. So much money is wasted on keeping it illegal, and I agree that alcohol is a hell of a lot worse than pot is ever going to be. People can get dui after dui and yet still are out there getting drunk and killing people as a result of their recklessness.

Sorry for that little rant - I personally think that moderation is the key for everything - too much of just about anything can have negative side effects.

That being said, I'm off to bake some wheat bread loaded with bran, veggies, & fruits...

Ame Jo (((((

PS: Hey, Meeshi mama! Good to see you again!

shaymic · 08-27-2002, 03:58 PM

Conversely, Nanners, if Marijuana is going to be illegal, then why not make cigarettes illegal? Alcohol? Better yet, let's keep going and make OTC sleeping pills illegal. Actually, ALL OTC meds that cause drowsiness should be illegal, after all, it impairs your natural being. Oh, and don't forget caffiene! Oh and sugar too, better make that illegal!

I dont' know about you, but I dont' want the government deciding what I can and cannot put in my body or what I decide to be or not be addicted to. KWIM? It's a slippery slope, both ways, but IMO if the above are to be legal, then so should be pot. MHO of course.

08-27-2002, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nanners
JIMO**** where do you stop? Legalize marijuanna...whats next
cocaine, LSD, Crack.

Mj is something that you can grow in your own yard and pick it and smoke it. You cannot grow LSD or crack in your garden, the y need to be produced in a laboratory. Comparing Mj to those narcotics is like comparing apples and oranges.

Wendydagny · 08-27-2002, 07:00 PM

Not to throw a wrench in this, but LSD is pretty darn easy to make. We learned how in organic chemistry, and then we made it, save the last step so we didn't get in trouble.

My teacher also taught us how to make a still.

I guess some scientist folk are kinda out there too

08-27-2002, 07:13 PM

"You cannot grow LSD or crack in your garden"

Nope, we've got our gov't to thank for those!

As I mentioned previously, I don't use drugs of any sort, don't smoke, don't drink. I think mj should be legal with reasonable restrictions because pot smokers don't really do any harm, they just get really lazy. Sure, some people react wierd, but people who get paranoid are prolly not going to want to try it again right? Besides, the world is full of mad drunks and sad drunks but we still let people drink.

People on LDS do nutty and often dangerous things, get paraniod, etc. The same is true for cocaine (whether smoked in slums or snorted in the executive washroom, although prohibitionists always seem to focus on "crack"- wonder why?)

The pot smokers I know get real relaxed and consume thier body's weight in processed foods and watch bad movies while high but do not go on crime sprees, abuse thier spouses, have orgies, etc.

Also, marijuana is natural (although bred to greater than natural potency,) cocaine is a very processed and purified form of a much milder natural drug (the native inhabitants of the growing areas chew the coca leaves for a gentler high and have done so to no ill effect since time immemorial) and LSD was cooked up in a gov't lab for experiments involving mind control and the creation of "super soldiers" who were perfectly loyal, had no compassion for the enemy and needed no sleep. They have nothing in common but thier illegality.

-Melissa