Location: somewhere between complete exhaustion and utter euphoria
Posts: 5,858
Help with the new puppy
It has been a whirlwind couple of weeks since getting that puppy. The day after ya'll posted all those great names, he got sick. Very sick. He had a severe case of kennel cough. Which is actually related to human whooping cough. Yuck! So, we have been dealing with that. Thankfully it was not distemper.
Anyway, his name finally came to be Dark Forest, or Forest for short. I appreciate all the suggestions. It made it so difficult to decide on one.
Anyway, the help I need . . . He is a nippy little puppy now that he is feeling better. He definitely prefers human skin to cheap squeaky toys. I feel most of this is normal though at times he seems a little agressive. He will get mad at me and grab the skin of my arm just below my elbow and pull and growl. I will not allow anyone in the house to play tug-o-war with him. I have read many times how this can make a dog aggressive. I am wondering if the prior owners did play it with him.
Anyway, the idea of hitting him for discipline feels no better than hitting a child would. So, what are your best dog discipline tips and/or books? I am particularly intestested in click training. Anyone have experience with that? I want him to be a dog we can take anywhere. And, I want him to be my girls' constant companion while not at school. I have the Brian Kilcommons' book and like it a lot. But I am looking for other "angles".
TIA.
__________________
Michelle
-- Mom to Beth, 11 and Sam, 8
I _HIGHLY_ recommend the book The Art of Raising a Puppy by the Monks of New Skete. This book was such a tremendous help to us.
As for the biting, I can't remember where we read/heard this, but we would insert our thumb into his mouth and press down on his lower palate and say in a stern voice "No mouth!" whenever he tried to bite us. The hand in his mouth was not a pleasant experience for him so it proved to be an effective deterrent after only a few days. Also redirect to a chew toy. A solid rubber sort of toy might feel best on his puppy teeth, not a toy thar squeeks or is hollow IYKWIM.
Good luck! All of our hard work has paid off and now at 5 years old our dog is such a pleasure to be around and a wonderful part of our family.
I admittedly don't know a lot about Monks, but from what I understand recommending Monks to a dog owner is like recommending Ezzo to a new parent.
(Just saying that most people in the dog world that I know of strongly disapprove of Monks methods, including my trainer. They feel they are pretty harsh from what I understand.)
__________________
Blessings,
Amy
Mama to Brendan (08-18-98), Ian (01-15-01), and baby Connor (6-1-05)! Also mom to my beloved goldens, Haley and Chase
PM Shanka. She has excellent training ideas, and I know she would know how to help this. (o: And you are right on the hitting....hitting a dog will only give you a severely fearful dog who will either challenge you or end up being a fear biter among kids or strangers....not what you want.
__________________ "Custom will reconcile people to any atrocity."
George Bernard Shaw
As far as the nipping. I used this with Cosmo to promote bite inhibition (EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO ME) and it worked perfectly. I TRULY trust that he will not bite. EVERY time he would even slightly put his open mouth on me - I would SQUEAL like a puppy. LIttermates teach each other how hard they can bite by squealing whenever a littermate bites too hard. The other puppy releases with the squeal. From the time we brought Cosmo home we squealed (high pitch and all) every time he stuck his open mouth on us, and now he truly feels our skin is super delicate and will not bite. We even taught the kids to do this as well. I NEVER spanked him for puppy chewing on us - just taught him that it hurt us when he bit.
The other day I was brushing him and pulled HARD on a matt. It hurt him and the first time ever he put his CLOSED mouth on my hand almost like another dog would if it were to snap. I even squealed when he did that, but I also knew to stop working on that matt and cut it out instead because it hurt him. Logan has fallen off the couch directly on him and he only went oomph....a 40 lb kid falling unexpectedly on a dog would cause a lot of dogs to bite. When we lived at our other house, Logan had a BAD BAD habit of pulling Cosmo (80 pounds) along the wood floor by his tail, and Cosmo didn't even peep. Cosmo would just look at me - I remember thinking how the heck is that dog crawling backwards when his is flat on his tummy - and then I'd see Logan dragging him along. (of course I rescued him and worked with Logan - I don't allow my kids to terrorize my dog either)
Oh, and we also do not play tug of war. Also - we don't allow our dog on the furniture. Because of a dog's pack nature they need to know their place in the home, and letting a dog on your furniture lets them think that they are on the same level as you. A happy dog is a dog that doesn't think it's the alpha dog and therefore feels no need to protect you or keep it's place in the pack. Some people here may disagree with that, and that's fine, but since I tend to be scared of big dogs, and I have a 80 pound dog, I want him to know who is boss. I don't think that spanking a dog is the way to earn respect - instead I choose to follow canine habits that would put me as the alpha dog (or at least higher in the chain of command than him - dh tends to be the alpha in this house lol) . I also NEVER pet him under his neck - if you want some links to alpha dog theories I'll send them to you. Otherwise I *KNOW* I'm going to make a lot of people think I'm a complete and total nut.
Because he doesn't consider himself alpha - my dog will never protect me in a battle, but then again he will also never bite a neighbor kid because he is protecting one of the kids from innocent play. He thinks it's our job to protect him - just like in a pack. His bark and size are enough to keep most people afraid anyway.
__________________
Delpha
Homeschooling Sahm to 2 boys - Devin Grey 10!, and Logan Dale 3, happily married to Casey
Location: somewhere between complete exhaustion and utter euphoria
Posts: 5,858
I would love links on the alpha dog stuff. I have been reading today about the squealing technique. I think that might work. Getting mad at him sure does not. I have no, off and here chew on this my self to death in the last 36 hours. He is also alone from 7 a.m til 5:30 pm. I was reading about keeping them busy. I need to get a Kong or something of the sort. He has lots of toys but I think something he can get things out of would work well. I tried putting peanut butter in one toy and the ants got it. We keep ants in our house. Normally, they are not a problem. But it has been hot and dry here for two weeks. They are seeking shelter and water. But ants LOVE peanut butter.
when mine were teething as puppies and would grab hold of skin to teeth on, i'd squeeze their snouts tightly & tell them "no bite", and then bring them a chew toy or bone.
admittedly, i have swatted my dogs. i swat for destructive behavior, snapping, growling, and also for barking @ air, lol
wila can get on the couch on our level, as well as in our beds-but if i had a big dog, i dunno if i'd allow it. wila is half boxer & half chiuaua (sp) so she's a nervous wreck most of the time & needs lots of love-but is a fierce protector of the kids. they can't wrestle around here without someone getting nipped.
are you crate training? i think that's the best decision i made when i got my first dog. i thought it was cruel, but it ended up making so much sense in the end.
Location: somewhere between complete exhaustion and utter euphoria
Posts: 5,858
I have a bed for him but I just don't get crate training. We have always had dogs. Our first puppy DH took care of and she was the best dog. Her being extremely smart helped. I remember her chewing some but not much. The second we got older so I missed the puppy stage. The third we got as a puppy but I can't remember this much nipping. He was younger though when we got him. 6 weeks compared to 12 weeks. But he and Forest look identical.
Explain crate training to me. Please. Forest is mostly lab with some Chow Chow in him. He has that classic curled tail and four black spots on his tongue.
Crate training is based on the concept that dogs are denning creatures by nature, and therefore are likely to feel safer in a small enclosed environment that is their own. Our beagle had major separation anxiety issues and it was crate training that saved her, literally. She would freak out whenever we left the house and defecate on things (the COUCH), chew up everything, etc. We worked on crate training her and the difference was amazing. She would voluntarily go into the crate, her house as we called it, and would stay there calmly until we returned. It was her *safe house*
When you start with crating an animal, you don't want to just shove them in there and lock the door. Leave the door open and put a treat in there. Let them go in there and investigate and get the treat and come right back out if they want. After doing that several times, try shutting the door for a few minutes. Do that over the course of several days, always leaving the crate door open when you are home to offer them the opportunity to go in there voluntarily if they wish. As they get used to the crate, you will be able to leave them in there for longer periods of time, including going to work and time outs for mouthing and stuff. (I would not recommend using the crate for time outs immediately as that will cause them to associate it with punishment, and you don't want that).
Also, if you do get a crate, get one that is big enough to be used when the dog is an adult, but be sure to block the majority of it off somehow while he is still a pup. If they have too much room, they will use one side as a bed and one side as a bathroom. I say to get one that can be used to adulthood even if you don't plan on using it past the puppy stage b/c they are really good things to have. We don't use our on a regular basis, it is usually folded up in the closet, but one of our dogs recently had hip surgery, and needed to be isolated while he recovered, so the crate, and having him crate trained, has been a wonderful thing.
For nipping, my trainer recommends redirection first of all. When the dog is nipping at the children, she used a method for calling that involved everyone, including the children, taking turns calling the dog and having him sit in front of the person to get a treat. It teaches the dog that he sits and waits in front of people instead of jumping and nipping, especially children.
Other than that, I can say they will grow out of it. My goldens were done with the nipping well before their first birthday, if that helps any!
Kas - cuz I like you I'm gonna tell you why your little one nips when there is wrestling going on - it's cuz she feels she has to protect because she feels alpha - at least to the kids. If that's not a problem for you because she's small and won't really hurt the kids - well - that's your bidness and I respect your decision. But that's why she nips. It also makes dogs nervous when they feel they have to be and stay on top of that chain. It's stressful to be on top with all that responsibility. My dog is too big to take that chance. I know lots of people that have bigger dogs than me that are well behaved AND sleep on beds, couches and such, but since I *AM* scared of big dogs I took no chances.
Michelle - I crate trained my dog, but I admit I wasn't the best crate trainer, and it's been a while since it's been a big issue. I mainly used crate training as a way to potty train - I don't know if that's an issue for you or not. I know at least that the crate should be a safety zone, not a punishment. I have a Kong around here, but for some reason my dog never really used it. He preferred to chew on the house and kids toys (see, told you I wasn't a good crate trainer) rather than his multitude of chewy toys. My dog still doesn't get unsupervised run of the house, because he still eats the kids toys when unsupervised and we have a fenced acre yard, but he really only goes in his crate now when we have a bunch of kids over for playgroup (for his protection, not theirs), and at night if it's yucky outdoors. He has a dog house, but is scared of thunder storms. Otherwise he's in the house with us, or out in the yard.
I'll dig up some links on alpha dog. Samantha/Shanka I'm sure knows *MUCH* more about dog training than I do, I'm really just a person that is scared of big dogs whose kids wanted a collie and I had to figure out how I could make a collie work for all of us. We went to a dog trainer as well, and really a dog trainer teaches the pet owners how to behave as much as they teach the dogs how to behave. Good luck, and I'll get back with some links. It's pretty interesting, because people tend to treat their dogs like their kids, and that's not what they need.
Location: somewhere between complete exhaustion and utter euphoria
Posts: 5,858
Forest has our laundry room kinda as a crate. Since we have to be gone from home so much, I am concerned about leaving him crated because of the "need to relieve himself". I would not want him doing it in a crate. Right now, he uses a piece of newspaper on one end of the laundry room and has a bed I made for him with his toys on the other. He will even go in there to sleep sometimes. Although right now, he prefers the air conditioning vents. He loves the one in the kitchen floor. He is close to me and cold. )
I would like to get him trained to a bed in the living room. I wonder if a crate would be in order there.
Have you looked into clicker training? I clicker trained Cosmo to lay down on his bed when we were in the living room. His crate was far away, and he needed a place to stay in the living room sometimes. ex. is when we had guests - he was so big and boisterous that while he knew not to jump on family, guests seemed to BEG him to jump on them and he needed to be put in a sit stay on his bed until we was properly trained how to react to company. It worked well, but I don't know how to tell you how to do it w/out writing a whole book. We enjoyed clicker training. It's esp. good for dogs that aren't really food motivated. Cosmo could care less about the treat but was highly motivated to please us, so clicker training worked great for us. Although, you do use treats normally with clicker training, treats weren't as exciting as the actual click for my dog.
Here are some links - please do not confuse this with doing the alpha role - which is apparently very bad indeed - never heard of it before, but when googling I saw quite a bit, and what I am talking about is a gentle approach (really, it is) to dog training.
I also found this about the book recomended before. Reading this makes it sound good to me, but I've never read the book before so maybe it's not so good?!? Certainly looked like a good read at least.
The Monks of New Skete "TYPE=PICT;ALT=HowtoBeYourDog'sBestFriend:TheClass icTrainingManualforDogOwners(Revised"
List Price: $25.95
Your Price: $17.65
You Save: $8.30 (32%)
Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours
Product Description:
How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend, an informal, friendly guide by The Monks of New Skete, is really two books in one: a step-by-step training manual and a philosophical discussion of the spiritual benefits of owning a dog. The Monks, who support their community in upstate New York by breeding and training German shepherds, reveal a profound devotion to all breeds in this detailed guide to every imaginable aspect of dog ownership. They cover it all: naming the puppy, training with eye contact and jingling keys, establishing the best sleeping arrangements, even dealing with pet loneliness. Owners are advised to think of themselves as the dog's alpha figure, to train with praise instead of punishment, and to beware of becoming the dog's maid or doorman. Throughout, the authors reflect on the deep spiritual connection possible between humans and dogs. Generations of dogs have been trained with the bestselling 1978 edition of this book. With this update, the Monks are bound to gain many new fans--happy humans and obedient canines alike. With modesty and generosity, the Monks offer an extensive list of other helpful books about dogs, as well as a useful appendix of American Kennel Club titles and terms. --Judy Fireman
I know one of the reviews said that they used to advocate the alpha dog roll (I must admit, I've rolled my dog on his back with my dog trainers insistance, and while my dog didn't care - actually liked getting his belly scratched - other dogs in the training HATED it) and maybe that is why daydream mama thought it was bad - but they no longer advocate the alpha dog roll.
Daydream mama - I have to ask - do you compare this book to ezzo because it is so much about "training" in that respect - I guess it sounds like it could be compared - but I don't believe my dog is like my child, nor do I feel like they need the same type of discipline, leadership, or guidance. I believe that a happy dog is one is "trained" and believes it's owners are alpha - but I don't believe that is the same with children. I must admit I've never read this book, but the review sounds pretty good to me. I don't believe in physically punishing my dog - but there are many alternatives to physical punishment that still leave me as alpha.
Bite inhibition - Here's an article that may explain better what I was talking about. This seriously works - I wish more people would see this. I never really did the roll, because I was lucky enough to pick from the litter of pups, and I was careful about the temperament of dog I picked. I picked the puppy that wasn't scared of me, but was confident enough to want to be played with, but was obviously not the leader of the group. Basically, I got a submissive - but not scared puppy. He trained pretty easily. Cosmo was always pretty submissive and eager to please. I just had to squeal a few times before he would stop biting. BUT.... it took him several weeks of doing this to really catch on. Now he is really careful and honestly thinks our skin is super sensitive and DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH ON US at all. He licks (no teeth) food out of our hand because he doesn't want his teeth to touch us.
"No bite!"
1. Angel days and devil days: teaching bite inhibition to puppies
Q: My Dalmatian puppy is almost nine weeks old. I got him when he was five weeks. He's playful and fun but I can't get him to stop biting me. That seems to be the only way he likes to play anymore — rough! I've been telling him No!, holding his mouth shut while saying “No bite!” and even shoving my hand back in his mouth like a trainer told me to do. Nothing seems to work. In fact, he thinks I'm playing a game with him and gets more excited the more I try to stop him. Sometimes he walks right up and attacks me! What can I do? Is he vicious?
A: No, he's not vicious, he's just being a normal, rambunctious, and sometimes obnoxious puppy. To get control of your pup's biting, it helps to understand why puppies bite in the first place.
Biting and mouthing are normal behaviors for puppies. Dogs don't have hands so they investigate objects and their environment with their mouths. To a curious puppy, everything about this big world is brand new and exciting. He learns as he goes along. You can almost hear his thought processes as he discovers something he's never seen before: "Hmmm...what's this? [chomping on it] Something to eat? No? [tossing it around] Can I play with it? Maybe. Can I make it squeak?"
Playing is also a normal learning behavior for puppies, especially play-fighting. Play-fighting with littermates and other animals develops reflexes, coordination and physical skill. It also helps them develop social skills and teaches them how to interact positively within their canine society, their "pack." And it's great fun for them. Sometimes their fighting and "attacks" on us appear frighteningly fierce but to them, it's just a game. Much like a group of kids playing make-believe games and pretending to be grown-ups, puppies have their own games and pretend to be "grown-ups," too!
A dog's ability to control the force of his biting is called "bite inhibition." It's a critically important skill that every puppy needs to learn, the earlier the better. At first, they don't know their own strength nor how sharp their little teeth really are. Puppies learn to control the force of their biting from the reactions of their mothers and littermates during play and especially play-fighting.
We can teach puppies about bite inhibition, too, but some of the methods most often recommended aren't effective. Mother dogs' methods, however, are very effective, often more so than ours. I believe this is because they're speaking to their pups in the language they understand best -- dog language! A baby puppy is much too busy learning how to be a dog to take time to understand our human words and ways. That takes time and maturity. Puppies respond to dog language in a very powerful, instinctive way. We can take advantage of that by copying a mother dog's actions and using them for ourselves.
The idea of using mother dog's natural training techniques isn't new. Respected trainers like Carol Lea Benjamin have been using them for years. To understand these methods, let's take a look at a typical mother dog disciplining her brood. We'll use my Heather (Chow) and her four rowdy puppies as an example.
When a playful puppy bites Heather hard enough to hurt, she squeals in shocked indignation. The puppy, surprised at her reaction, usually hesitates a moment, unsure of himself, then tries to bite again. Heather yelps even louder this time and whirls on the puppy, growling, showing her teeth and scowling at him fiercely. Then she turns her back on him and storms away, completely ignoring him and any further attempts to get her to play. A smart puppy picks up her clear message quickly: "if you can't play nice, I won't play with you at all!"
If the puppy persists or doesn't take the hint, Heather doesn't fool around. With a menacing growl and using her teeth, she grabs him by the scruff of his neck and gives him a shake. If he sasses back, she gives him another little shake, tougher this time. She doesn't let go of the pup till he's acknowledged her authority (in dog language) by relaxing his body, laying his ears back and keeping still for a moment. Heather disciplines especially obnoxious puppies by knocking them over with her paw and pinning them to the ground, growling angrily and pinching them with her teeth. The puppies shriek but they're not really hurt. She doesn't let them up again untill they relax and lie still. After the correction, the puppy shakes his fur back into place and goes off in search of a playmate with a better sense of humor.
We don't have to growl at our puppies or shake them with our teeth, but we can modify Heather's technique for ourselves. The next time your puppy bites you, scream "OW!" in a high-pitched voice. Exaggerate a little. Then refuse to play with him or pay attention to him for a few minutes. If he doesn't get the message, give him a little scruff shake and scold him in a low-toned, threatening voice. You can exaggerate a little on that, too! Sound meaner than you really are. For puppies that just won't quit or seem to get wilder with every correction, flip them over on their backs, scold them in that same low, scary voice (growling) and gently but firmly, hold them in that position until they stop struggling.
We sometimes give puppies the wrong message about biting by some of the games we play with them. Wrestling and tug of war can encourage a puppy to bite and make it hard for him to distinguish when it's okay to use his teeth and when it's not. To make it easier for your puppy to learn good manners, it's a good idea to avoid these games.
Puppies seem to learn a great deal about bite inhibition and authority between five and eight weeks of age through play with their mothers and littermates. This is an especially good reason not to buy very young puppies. Puppies that were acquired earlier need to be taught these important things by their owners. They might require a little more intense use of Heather's methods than puppies that stayed with their litters longer. Puppies that receive little or no training in bite inhibition, either from their mothers or their people, may grow up to develop behavior problems.
I noticed that Heather picked out certain puppies for a little "extra" correction two or three times a day. She'd roll them over, pin them down for no apparent reason, growling at them if they didn't lie quietly. I noticed, too, that the puppies she chose were the most outgoing and dominant in the litter. She gave them regular reminders of her authority and the behavior she expected from them. I've found that using her technique myself works very well on puppies that've become too big for their britches!
Even with their mothers, puppies act a lot like kids -- they're always testing and pushing their limits. They have angel days and devil days. With patience, persistence and a few hints from your puppy's mother, you'll be able to tip the balance toward the angel's side!
More on kids and dogs is available in the article: Kids And Dogs: Safety first and Vicki DeGruy's award-winning column: Kids and Dogs: A common sense approach.
Vicki DeGruy
Location: somewhere between complete exhaustion and utter euphoria
Posts: 5,858
This is what I had been reading all over the web today about nipping puppies. It makes complete sense. The hardest part is my dd's dresses. Sam wears nothing but dresses. Well the hem of them is right at Forest's nose level. He is beginning to learn drop-it well.
He and I definitely have some dominance issues. He knows Joe is alpha dog but her feels superior to the girls and I. I have a lot to study on.
and Sam, 8 
My dog is too big to take that chance. I know lots of people that have bigger dogs than me that are well behaved AND sleep on beds, couches and such, but since I *AM* scared of big dogs I took no chances. 
)
Linear Mode
