Gentle guidanceThis board is not a debate board regarding spanking vs. non spanking. While we strongly believe that children need and thrive with guidance, we also believe that hitting is not the answer. If you have come here to discuss spanking and your reasons, please desist.
Irina, I really like some of things you posted, but I have a question. I know you have posted (I don't think it was here, I think it was over at Mothering.com that you struggle with your daughter giving you attitude and sass a lot.
Could you point me to the post you are referring to? DD *is* a strong-willed child, but I don't recall posts of such nature...
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Irina,
Mom to Matt 08/87 Valerie 07/00
from Irina's list I would like to know more about the option of "Use restitution".
The way I see "using restitution" is kind of "starting over". AS in physics application of this term
Quote:
the return to an original physical condition
For example - a situation going is downhill, all involved parties are strarting to lose it, you may say "All right! Stop. Lets do over." And actually walk backward to the door and pretend to start over. Does this make sense?
Hmmm, restitution, according to mydictionary goes something like this: The act of restoring to the rightful owner something that has been taken away, lost, or surrendered. See Synonyms at reparation.
2. The act of making good or compensating for loss, damage, or injury; indemnification.
Problem as I see it, with this sort of restitution, is it only works if the person who is doing the restituting (??), as in, one kid breaking another child's toy, whether maliciously or by accident, only works if said person is willing to give it. You can force a child to say sorry, replace a toy, pay for something, but in most cases, children usually do not feel at fault and feel as if something is being taken away from them when they do that. I don't think that is a good tactic for smaller children, it would probably be very effective with older ones and teens who realize our society functions on a quid pro quo basis.
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Could you point me to the post you are referring to? DD *is* a strong-willed child, but I don't recall posts of such nature...
I got my Mothering rights revoked, I think, because I can't get onto that site at all since I directed my Due Date Club Mamas to come over here once they removed our Aug. 2006 board. I can't remember exactly, and it may have very well been another Irina with a daughter and older son. I could have sworn it was you, though. I remember posts about her telling people to stop talking and telling you that XXX and YYY were all *your* fault and acting like the boss of things. General bad attitude things.
Not to focus on just you, though, because I have seen some of the same things in Nico at her Moms. She tends to follow some of things of that list you gave such as "Leave it up to your child, say yes as much as possible, giving in, ignoring behavior" and then things escalate until Nico starts being demanding and porky.
Like I said, I do agree with many of the things on that list. I just wonder if some of them might make things harder in the long run.
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How Time Flies ~ Luna Blue is Two!
Tree hugging, vegetarian, breastfeeding, cloth-diapering, home schooling, drum playing Step-Mama to my sweet Nico Sage and Mama to my curly Kaya Jade and wee Luna Blue. Lovin my hottie ~ J. Blogging From the Boonies My Etsy Shop
I remember posts about her telling people to stop talking and telling you that XXX and YYY were all *your* fault and acting like the boss of things. General bad attitude things.
Yes! It is my post, though I don't contribute it to the "bad attitude". May that's why I was like "What is she taking about?"
It took me/us sometime to bring the dynamics back to a "leveled" stage. It was largely due to her feeling vey overwhelmed with new scool and feeling rather powerless.
I am glad I helped her sort her feelings out and she is becoming better and better at identifying them herself!
Here, I'll copy/post the post for reference, so others reading will know what we are talking about
Quote:
My daughter loves to critisize me and I take it too seriously!
"You spoke to me in a mean voice" (yes, my voice was slightly raised, and I mean slightly!)
"You should have thought about XXX! Now we can not do YYY!"
"It was ALL your fault" (I thought this one is reserved for teenagehood )
"You should have reminded me!"
"You should have waited until I remember!"
And I swear I don't model this to her! If anything I do the opposite - encourage and reassure
DS did not have that at all. Is it a "girl" thing? Is it a "6yo" thing? Is it a "this too shall pass" thing?
I am getting depressed because I am being critisized all the time!
I also would like to answer your direct question - whether I am contributing the above to my parenting. No, for several reasons.
1) I've seen kids from families with different parenting exhibit similar frustrations
2) I've brought up my DS in the same (OK, similar, cuz there no truly "sames") manner, and he just takes after DH being a super mellow guy. Another reason why DD's sensitive and high-strung nature took me by surprise! (Which it shouldn't, she takes after me,lol)
Sorry for the novel
PS. Yeah, chances of there being another Irina with a grown son and a 6yo DD are not very high
Location: In Crochet Therapy... I can charge insurance for yarn, right?!
Posts: 3,342
I also like Irina's posted list... and "discipline" is a much better word... that's why I put "punishment" in quotes at the start of this thread... punishment was the first thing that came to mind and I dind't invoke my inner thesaurus.
I think much of Irina's list fits under discipline - b/c discipline is what we all do - even inadvertantly, by our examples. I think a lot of our unique discipline choices fit easily within Irina's list - b/c we're not focused so much on punishing, but using alternative situations to teach our children how to treat other people with respect and how to be responsible.
for some resason i hate the words discipline and punish about the same. my goal is to generate cooperation and compassion..............there are many phrases my children ABSOLTUELY are not allowed to use. (some the have resently been trying out after a visit with friends)
These include:
That's mine
I had it first
I didn't take it out/have it last/ect...
He started it
ect......
To me all these phrases and what is behind them is the feeling that it is okay to be selfish and self centered. And if my children attempt to use these phrase I simple say, "Ask for what you want" or I repeat what i want them to do --such as clsoe the door. I want my children to be responsible for their actions and considerate and compassionate with others.
............as for some crazy punishment story---EXFIL use to make his kids stand facing the wall with there hands held over their heads and smack their knuckles with a bamboo rod.
I tend to put things into "time out" rather than kids.... if my kids are fighting over something that something is the issue rather than the kids... if my 3 year old hits my 1 year old with a bat... it is my downfall for allowing them to have a bat in the house.
I do typically explain... I am putting the bat in time out because you hit your brother. You need to apologize for hitting him because he is hurt. I am sorry I gave you such a dangerous toy...
I tend to put things into "time out" rather than kids.... if my kids are fighting over something that something is the issue rather than the kids... if my 3 year old hits my 1 year old with a bat... it is my downfall for allowing them to have a bat in the house.
I do typically explain... I am putting the bat in time out because you hit your brother. You need to apologize for hitting him because he is hurt. I am sorry I gave you such a dangerous toy...
I agree that yes, it would be your responsibility to make sure the bat wasn't in the house if there were a possibility of it being used like that. But my personal feeling about letting them know you are taking responsibility for it being there, is that eventually, in the future, they will have this ingrained feeling that somebody else shouldn't have been there/put that there/made that available/whatever...that if *somebody else* hadn't been at fault, that temptation wouldn't have been in their way, or their inattentiveness or carelessness wouldn't have resulted in that disaster or tragedy. The onus on them to own up to their own mistakes is gone. I see it in my own children, having done it, and now that they are older, I am SERIOUSLY regretting it, esp in my boy. I am having to retrain him, that HE has to take responsibility for his own actions...it is NOT always someone else's fault that something happened because of xyz.
JMHO, and I would love to hear of this working better than it has for me, in older children and adult children. Because so far, I am not happy with what I am seeing. And I see it in society in general, this attitude that it is always someone else's fault, and I think it is a BAD direction we have taken.
i think one of the big things that irina has gotten me to think about more is whether or not i view the boys as "kids" or as human beings. when tucker has what my mom calls a smart mouth, (its really hard) i try to remember that he is a human being just like me and trying desperately to figure out how to interact in this big world. sometimes he sasses me back and if i think about it, it is usually something i have said to him in the past. its not always the same situation, and usually its something that i am not proud of having said.... but he is just figuring how everything works yk?
i have been trying extra hard to remember that really truly in reality (at least in my mind) there is no reason why i should be the boss. why cant my kids have control over their own lives? i make it my job to be near them and make sure they are safe, which often involves a "hey, can we talk for a minute?" when i think a choice may not have a very positive ending. i very very rarely have found times where i have had to force an issue since trying to view my kids this way. and honestly the times where i have, i probably could go back and do over in a more even way, but either was too tired or stressed or whatever excuse i had at the time.
i hope this doesn't come out wrong, but the idea that i always return to is how i might treat an adult foreign exchange student. doesn't know the customs, knows some of the language, but few of the nuances, trying to get around. if such a person was living in my house and said hey you're a big dumb-a$$ (which is ds1's new favorite phrase btw) i would not scream at them, i would not send them to time out, i would try to respectfully explain why that hurt my feelings, yk?
eta: i always hesitate posting for fear of insulting someone, so i wanted to clarify that my above example of screaming or timeout was not in reference to any previous posters, but rather examples from my own parenting which i am trying to better
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Brianna, SAHM to DS Tucker (10-11-02) My UC baby Jacob Patrick born 10-9-05 Married to the love of my life Ryan.
I don't know that I agree with taking responsibility for my children's actions. If my teen sneaks out, I am not going to blame myself for not nailing the window shut. I try not to give my kids any reason to defy me-by telling them *why* I have made the decision I have made. Or at the very least, having an open enough relationship with me that they can tell my they want to go out instead of sneaking out. (this is just hypothetical btw)
as far as not being the boss of my kids-that is not something I would do here either. When my kids say things like "that teacher does not like me, and I don't like him" I remind them that there will always be someone in their life that they don't get along with. Just as there will probably be someone who is your boss. My husband tells my teenage son all of the time "even though I am *A* boss, I *have* a boss-you're always accountable to someone" when he complains about adults infringing on his rights.
Now, I have three teens, a tween and two Little's. So far, the biggest issue we have had revolves around the kids not being responsible for themselves and being proactive in their lives. I may have a different perspective because I lost my mother when I was young-but I want my children to be able to function without me reminding them to do everything. My teens are pretty good about it, my tween struggles in school. She's a free spirit and tends to follow her own time table. My Little's are still too little to tell
Overall, for a large, blended family, we don't have a whole lot of turmoil. I respect my children and I expect them to respect me. When they say something I don't like I remind them that they should not say anything to me that they would not say to a judge or police officer. That usually makes them pause and rephrase. Really, I have great kids.
so what if you have an only...no fightin with siblings...just flat out disobeying you...how many times can "oh I forgot" o "I thought you said yes"or " I lost track of time" be 'ignored' before some PUNISHMENT comes into play?!
Irina, either that is not the post I was thinking of or there was more to it. I remember something about screaming at people to "Stop talking!" and I remember that because Nico had a stint of telling her Mama the same thing...
Anyway, like I said, it was not a point to single you out. I just saw some similarities in the way I remember you describing your DD and the attitude Nico tends to give her Mama at her house where things are overlooked and a lot more lenient than they are here.
Obviously, I do not claim that there is a right or wrong way to raise your kids. And there are 10,000 different variables in the way kids act. I have just seen attitudes I am not comfortable with come from situations where parents try to be equals with their kids and wondered if anyone thought there might be a correlation between letting your kids "get away" with certain things and the kids giving a 'tude more often. I'm a ponderer. So, I'm just pondering here instead of in my head.
I love ya and respect you, Irina, so I hope you don't feel on the defensive.
I agree that yes, it would be your responsibility to make sure the bat wasn't in the house if there were a possibility of it being used like that. But my personal feeling about letting them know you are taking responsibility for it being there, is that eventually, in the future, they will have this ingrained feeling that somebody else shouldn't have been there/put that there/made that available/whatever...that if *somebody else* hadn't been at fault, that temptation wouldn't have been in their way, or their inattentiveness or carelessness wouldn't have resulted in that disaster or tragedy. The onus on them to own up to their own mistakes is gone. I see it in my own children, having done it, and now that they are older, I am SERIOUSLY regretting it, esp in my boy. I am having to retrain him, that HE has to take responsibility for his own actions...it is NOT always someone else's fault that something happened because of xyz.
I guess I could have gone into more detail. my kids are only 1 and 3 so only so much responsibility vs resonable expectation ya know... a 3 year old will swing a bat and doesnt know to check for the baby brother.
When an object comes out of time out we usually discuss its use and its dangers... clearly at this point not too many things can go out of time out without someone being too young for the responsibility
now if my 3 year old punches my 1 year old it is a different ball game and he is expected to take responsibility for his actions apologizing to his brother... kissing and making better the place he hurt. Helping his brother feel better and sacrificing whatever he needs to to be it his own play time or the toy being fought over to make up for the situation ease the pain and gain forgivness. Perhaps even getting the young one a glass of some water or something... my kids are young so our punishments are very light...
My UC baby Jacob Patrick born 10-9-05 
Married to the love of my life Ryan.
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