amitymamaThe Attachment Parenting Community

Summer · 12-22-2005, 09:51 AM

Heather has some great advice.

I found that my key with my strong willed 3 year old was a willingness to carry through no matter how he reacted. So if he's going to cry and scream "forever", well, okay. If that's what he wants to do, that's okay by me. I offer all appropriate comfort, but if he wants to scream for an hour, that's fine. He just needs to do it in his room and I'm willing to "help" him get there if he needs it.

With dinners, we had exactly the same issue and we decided, at about 3.5 years old that it was ridiculous. So we told him that the first time he got down, dinner was over for him. Of course he didn't believe me- I'd said that before and it never meant anything. Well, he got down, I took his plate to the sink. Oh, man, the fit he pitched! He did it again 3 or 4 times but after that, not only did he respect our meal times, he respected my ability to follow through on what I told him.

With toys, I have a large rubbermaid bin that I use for toys that aren't put away. I tell the kids that they need to put X toy away. If they don't, I put it in the bin. They stay in the bin for a day or 2, depending on how the situation went. Keep in mind that when you take toys away, he's probably going to look to you to entertain him. You need to decide in advance how much of that you're willing to do. I do very little besides letting them "help" me do my housework stuff, cooking and baking. Lots of whining those days, though.

My dilemma now is that Ruthie is old enough to use the same toys and it's not really fair to her to have toys she likes to play with taken away. I suspect it's the first of many things that aren't going to be perfectly fair, though. When she complains about it, I'll try and work something out.

So in short (yeah, right), I'd just be willing to suffer through his reaction to your reasonable and thought out in advance consequences. They will improve, it'll just take a while. Also, prepare for the process to be very labor intensive, especially at first.

joyfuljourneys · 12-22-2005, 10:06 AM

Well, after a 2 year struggle with the cute 4 1/2 yr old in my sig pic (yeah, he looks like he is still 2 1/2..he is tiny and smart as a whip) I totally get ya!

What we finally did about 6 months ago was realize that we had to get stronger and more delibarate with him, the discipline I used with my other kids just didn't work with a gifted preschooler...he questions everything, is super active because being in motion is how he processes his input so to speak,,he is a handful....

So we first sat down and talked to him about his behavior not being ok, that he was making life hard for the whole family, and told him that mommy and daddy were going to have to get stronger...he didn't like that.

I took a few moments of inspiration from Super Nanny, who in general I despise..but we came up with consistent policies for time outs, a time out chair in the corner of the livingroom..a purposeful plan that DH, myself and the teenage daughter who occasionally babysits for an hour to two all were on board with.

We now will ask him to do something, or change his behavior, and then give him to the count of 3 (slow) to get it done/start it, however it is applicable. (we do this with everything, "it is time to leave the pet store, I see how much you love petting that puppy, so I am going to count to three while you finish up giving him your love, and then we need to say goodbye"....we don't use it as in "if you don't_________ by the time I get to 3, then the consequence will be ___________"....we just use it for him to know how much transition time he has, and to let him feel in control of that)

After a lot of consistency he is doing really well, and he can choose when to do whatever, within that count of 3. But if he doesn't change/do it, whatever, then we will get down to his level and tell him "I asked you to __________ and you have chosen not to do that. I am going to ask one more time, and if you choose not to __________ then there will be a consequence of a time out."

For a while it felt like he was just getting time outs all the stinking time, I was so tired, I felt like the militant mean mommy..so we had to add incentive for him to not have time outs,,to not let the behavior get that far..

So about 3 months ago we created a stoplight system on the fridge, with a behavior calendar. If he got a warning of a time out, one of the magnets were moved from the green light to the yellow light..if he had to have a time out he got a red light. There were 3 magnets on the chart, the first week or so he got a lot of time outs. The incentive was if he had no red lights in the day, he could put a sticker on the calendar..if he got a week of stickers he would get a small prize (like going to Mc Donalds with a parent for an ice cream cone).....the first week he only got 2 stickers, the next week about half of the days got stickers..it slowly improved.

By the time he got to the second month of the system, he was doing awesome, so we upped the stakes. We told him that if he got a whole calendar of stickers, he would get a bigger prize,,he asked for a Robin action figure. and sure enough, he got a months worth of stickers! We couldn't find the prize he wanted anywhere, but he was happy with a small Dora figure instead...

the difference is incredible..it felt hard at times, but it was the consistency. I also found that telling him ahead of time the behavior expected in other situations (at the store, going to someones house) helped him behave appropriately...really, he hasn't had a time out in a month or so.

Hang in there,,it is hard, and really hard at first when you decide to adopt a form of discipline that works for your family,,you have to be super consistent, and it helps to find a way to let your child still stay in control (I really find the counting time frame works so great for us,,Josh will usually chooose to do whatever it is before we get to 3, but he is on control of when he does what I want...), make it feel like it is their idea instead of yours....

Hugs.....parenting is so hard! I have the preschooler and a teenager at the same stinking time,,what was I thinking?!

brayg · 12-22-2005, 10:26 AM

Thank you all so much for your wonderful advice and words. I'm taking it all in and reading and re-reading. I *do* have to be more consistent with him and I *do* have to stick to my guns more. I know that and have known that all along. And I did that with Jacob, but Owen is just so different, personality-wise, that it's been tough. Keep the advice coming, mamas--this is helping a lot.

ThirtySomething · 12-22-2005, 11:11 AM

My only other suggestions (since you got some great advice here!) is to make sure he understands the guidelines up front.

For toys, I would keep them all up so he has to ask for them until he gets older. It is sort of the toddler defense too. Some kids don't dump and pile, but others do. It's wonderful when a child has been taught from the get-go that he/she should put toys away. If that hasn't been taught, dumping toys should stay up for the most part until he gets the hang of the rules.

When he asks for one you can say:

"Sure. When you are done playing, they must be picked up and put back in the box."

Make sure you get acknowledgment.

"Do you agree? You'll put the toys back in the box when you are done?"

If he says yes, then the toy comes out. THEN your job is to make sure he follows through. While a 5 or 8 yr old may come back and clean up a toy, a 3 yr old probably will resist this greatly. He should do it right away. So, when you see he is done, give him a chance to follow-through on his own, then you may have to go over and help him. Remind him of your agreement: "Toys go back in the box. Remember that we talked about it."

Helping him follow-through

I've had great success with the "agreement method" with my 3 yr old. He turned 3 in October.

I also used the phrase "follow-through" like this:

"You agreed to help pick up. You need to follow-through."

Your consequence can be taking the toy away if it doesn't happen, but I'd try very hard to set up the situation to make him successful at helping. Make it a game or be silly or something. If you just have one toy out with a few pieces, this shouldn't be a big problem.

mamabuzzybee · 12-22-2005, 11:24 AM

I know that consistency and consequences--there's another C?

--are key. It was what got me through the first phase of testing when she was about 2. But now, I'm at a loss. Toys aren't a big deal, she's good about helping to pick up when I am clear about what needs to happen--goodness knows I'd like to get to a time when I didn't need to say that toys need to get put away, but we'll get there. And sitting at the table would be nice, but its not a big one at our house--that's one I can wait for. We all sit in the same room, the kids at the kids table and they are up and down, and then the adults in comfy chairs. We're together and that is what matters most to me.

No, my problem is a child who is testing every limit imaginable when something needs to happen. i.e. fighting appropriate clothing choices when we're already late in the morning for preschool (we are ALWAYS the last ones there

), fighting naps when we are at the store (I am one of the owners of a b&m parenting store) and there are customers, fighting bedtime when it is already late and I am so exhausted that I think I am going to lose my mind if I don't get some quiet time. And there are no consequences that work for this child. None. There is nothing special that she loves enough that the threat of taking it away will make her behave. We don't regularly watch TV, or have regular play dates. Sending to her to her room--well she just walks out screaming bloody murder, and I put her back and she comes out and I put her back and she comes out and I put her back in ad infinitum. At the store, I tried that--putting her in the office, but good lord was that insanity with customers of babies who can't imagine letting their baby cry seeing this hysterical kid and having NO idea what it means to have a kid vs. a baby.

Thanks mamas for all the supporting and encouraging words though--it is recharging my parenting batteries and patience. Once Christmas is over, life should settle down a little bit. And hopefully we will be able to get to a place where being consistent will be a way of life again.

ThirtySomething · 12-22-2005, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamabuzzybee

No, my problem is a child who is testing every limit imaginable when something needs to happen. i.e. fighting appropriate clothing choices when we're already late in the morning for preschool (we are ALWAYS the last ones there

), fighting naps when we are at the store (I am one of the owners of a b&m parenting store) and there are customers, fighting bedtime when it is already late and I am so exhausted that I think I am going to lose my mind if I don't get some quiet time.

This testing is also known as a power struggle. If it is ending in you being exhausted "yet winning" it is a power struggle. Parents love to win. We think we always should. I always have a flash to Disneyland when we went 3 years ago. I saw a lot of grouchy people pushing crying children around the park. Because I'm warped, it would make me laugh (inside). "This is the happiest place on Earth ****it! Quit yer crying! We're having fun here!"

You're having a power struggle because you keep having one. The routine is always the same... you give her the information, she rebels, you react the same way.

I'm not sure what appropriate clothes are for pre-school, but I'd remove anything from her drawer that is not. Then, she only has to choose from things that are already appropriate thus ending the struggle. If she wants to wear her dress up clothes, you'll have to talk about that beforehand (not in the heat of the moment). You can come to an agreement about her wearing them over her preschool clothes and leaving them in a special box (or bag) in the car. Then she can put the right back on after school.

As for fighting naptime, you might have to let that one go. Most 3 yr olds I know do not take a nap. She probably just doesn't need one. You might need her to need one, but she is getting older.

For bedtime, you just need to break the cycle you are in. Consistency is great, but being unyeilding creates a power struggle. Don't be afraid to shake up your routine. My 3 yr old falls asleep with me, but I don't talk or play. He can stay right with me if he likes, but I'm going to be doing something that "I" want to be doing such as watching a TV program or reading.

Consider and re-evaluate your limits. Figure out why you are unyeilding and then try to figure out a way to make it work for you.