amitymamaThe Attachment Parenting Community

hannahsorchard · 07-22-2003, 11:41 AM

I don't even know the point of posting. It's not like anyone can really offer suggestions since you guys don't know Malachi. I just really am stressed out right now and need to get it out I guess.
Malachi has always been difficult. He will be 3 in october and he still isn't talking. He doesn't really listen. He throws temper tantrums with the most shrill screamy cry ever. There is only so much of that I can listen to in a day. People always suggest that he may be autistic but I *know* Malachi is just delayed and doesnt have any disorders. And it isn't a denial thing cause I would completely accept it if he *was* autistic or something. But he isn't. DH didn't start talking till he was over 3 either and acted just like Malachi. I just don't know how his mom did it. I am tired.
And what is even harder is trying to explain how Malachi is to people. He doesnt talk... but he has said MANY MANY things. Just doesnt say them again. I didn't know he could count because he does NOT like to sit with you and learn anything. If he even sees you coming to him when he is looking at a book... he drops it and does something else. But one day he just started stacking blacks and counted straight to 10. he does things like that. That is why it is hard to say he doesnt understand you... and he doesnt listen... because he will all of a sudden do something that shows that he DOES have a clue yk? Like most kids you can ask them to get something and they go get it... like their shoes. well Malachi... he would just ignore you. So one day I asked him to go get his shoes and I kinda laughed to dh because it wasn't like he was actually gonna go do it. Well 5min later he comes and hands me one of his shoes. This is what makes it so darn hard. we have no idea what he knows and what he doesn't. I think he even recognizes numbers without ever had sat and watched us point them out. He was looking at one of hannah's preschool activity books the otehr day... each page has a number. Then after 5, there is a review page and then it starts at 6 again. Well I heard him counting... so I look and he is turning the pages and saying what is on them. Then he didn't say anything at 4 so I said "fouuuur" and he looked at me and smiled and then turned the page and looked at me to say 5. Well when he got to the review page he skipped over it showing that he isn't just counting the pages he is turning. He made a mistake and skipped 6 so he flipped BACK to the 6 page and said "sissss". He is always doing stuff like that but then doesnt do it when we try to get him to. He won't even repeat things back to you.
I know at a drs appt it would be difficult trying to explain that he DOES know things because Malachi would never show it when asked to yk?
It is hard him not talking because I don't know what he wants half the time. He doesnt even each many things cause he is so picky. So I am constantly wasting food by handing him stuff when I don't even know if he is hungry.
he will be 3 and doesnt even use a spoon or fork yet... because he won't eat anything other than finger stuff. He won't even try a chocolate chip cookie or M&M because it is different.
I am so tired of the screaming at me because I don't know what he wants.
The worst part is that I can't even take my children outside to play because he won't listen to me. We live in base housing and we are near a small playground. Well he loves to swing in the baby swing. Problem is, I can't put him in it because they are so high that I can't get him back out. Last time, I was afraid I was gonna drop him and fall myself cause he wouldn't bend his knees and his feet were stuck and he was hanging over my back. He won't just stay in our backyard. And I can't chase him. I have no energy for that these days. I lose my breath pretty easily being almost 30wks preggo. So I can't take them in our own backyard cause he will not stay there. He heads right over to that park and stands under the swing and then gets mad because he doesnt understand that I can't put him in it.

Today I took them out to see how he would do and it lasted 5min. This time he heads up the driveway now. If I say "Malachi NO" or "Stop!" he doesnt. He just keeps going. And its hard because i always just say he doesnt understand, but how can he not understand if he does the other stuff that he does. It is like russion roulette when he is gonna show some understanding of something. So after chasing him back in our yard a million times, and him in tears... we ended up coming back in the house. And now I am in tears. I just can't do this. I don't know how to deal with him. Dh left the other day for 7wks and I am already tired. I am tired of having to run upstairs every 5min to make sure he isn't in the bathroom sink or toilet. Or that he isn't climbing on the stove to get in a cabinet. I want to cry from sheer exhaustion. My legs and belly can't handle these stairs much longer.
I just want him to start talking. Saying alllll those things he has said before. I want him to be consistant with understanding me. Everyone who gets to be around Malachi... they all agree that he just doesnt feel like showing anything or talking. And he shows that he does know things. Just shows things when he is good and ready. Malachi plays with others. Is very socialble and funny. I just want to be able to enjoy him. Right now I am just starting to feel bad for this new baby and what the heck we are doing by bringing her into a house where I can't even deal with my own son.
It's not fair to Hannah that we can't go out to play. We are getting a fence. Base came and marked the lines yesterday. But now I think we have to wait till payday cause after paying the fence, I don't wanna be stuck with 20.00 till payday. This pay period is LONG it seems! LOL Thank God we are doing a rental fence. I just keep reminding myself that soon we can be outside all day long if we want. He can't go anywhere in a fence! But why should it even have to be like that?

Sorry this is so long. I am just at a loss. He of course was screaming when we came in and I was telling him that if he would just stay in the yard we could stay out... but of course it fell on deaf ears. or so I think anyways. who knows. I sure don't.

Ok here is comes carrying a box of Kix cereal. Why doesnt he just say "Kix please!" and I will get him some!!!!!! he obviously knows what he wants and he has said it before

Crystal

starkl · 07-22-2003, 11:58 AM

{{{{{{{Crystal}}}}}}}} That must be so hard. Have you ever asked your mil how she handled it when dh was like that? She might have some insight for you.

Re: the food thing, maybe you can set out a tray of all the things he likes each morning before he gets up, and then he can just help himself throughout the day. I don't know if that'd be too messy, but cleaning up the mess might be easier than listening to the screaming. I totally can't deal with ds when he screams at me.

Ds, although very verbal, doesn't like to be taught things, really. I found out that he knew a bunch more letters than I thought when we were at the library and he started putting together a alphabet puzzle and naming the letters. Whenever I asked him the letters while he was reading, he'd say "I don't know?" or guess a letter that he knows it's not, and then just start calling out random letters.

Poor mama, sending you lots of love and good vibes! (((((

maryalene · 07-22-2003, 12:02 PM

{{{hugs}}}, I know you're not looking for advice, but maybe it's a sensory issue. My son is about the same age, and he's done a lot of the things you mentioned. He was referred to Early On for a speech delay, and it ends up that now they think he has sensory integration issues. Everyone in the program takes great pains to tell me that it's not that he's delayed or that there is something wrong with him, but that he has trouble absorbing and interpretting sensory input. I'm told that everyone has sensory issues to some degree (i.e. sensitivity to scratchy clothes, loud nosies, etc.) but with some kids it interfers with development and makes them very unfocussed. Right now, Donny sees a occupational therapist once a week (it's really just playtime for Donny) and we've really noticed a huge difference in his speech since he started. He is much calmer and speaks in sentances - things that were very rare before. He used to be almost uncontrollable much of the time. Like I said, Donny sounds a lot like Malachi so I know how exhausted you must feel - best wishes!

hannahsorchard · 07-22-2003, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by starkl
{{{{{{{Crystal}}}}}}}} That must be so hard. Have you ever asked your mil how she handled it when dh was like that? She might have some insight for you.

Re: the food thing, maybe you can set out a tray of all the things he likes each morning before he gets up, and then he can just help himself throughout the day. I don't know if that'd be too messy, but cleaning up the mess might be easier than listening to the screaming. I totally can't deal with ds when he screams at me.

Ds, although very verbal, doesn't like to be taught things, really. I found out that he knew a bunch more letters than I thought when we were at the library and he started putting together a alphabet puzzle and naming the letters. Whenever I asked him the letters while he was reading, he'd say "I don't know?" or guess a letter that he knows it's not, and then just start calling out random letters.

Poor mama, sending you lots of love and good vibes! (((((

I actually don't think dh was *quite* as bad as Malachi is. I know he didn't talk at all. And was just a wierd clueless child. BUt he didn't throw the fits and listened better. And I think the not getting him to listen is the worst. I dunno. lol It's all bad!

yep you should see my coffee table.... bagels, cheerios, Kix... banana, healthy valley breakfast bar... It's like a buffet table all day long rofl.
The screaming fits are usually when he goes and stands by the door for an hour just screaming cause he wants out. But doesnt understand that we can't go out since he won't stay in the yard.
I could even handle crying if it was a normal cry... but it is a wailing high pitch cry. Been doing it since the moment he popped out. I don't wish this cry on my worst enemy.
Thanks for the support. It's just so hard cause everyone want to just assume he has probs or something but it's so different when they actually meet him. So it's hard for internet friends to actually KNOW how he is just be explaining it yk?
They are watching Jay Jay the Jet Plane now. TV been off all day... figured it was worth it for 1/2hr of sanity lol

Crystal

hannahsorchard · 07-22-2003, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by maryalene
{{{hugs}}}, I know you're not looking for advice, but maybe it's a sensory issue. My son is about the same age, and he's done a lot of the things you mentioned. He was referred to Early On for a speech delay, and it ends up that now they think he has sensory integration issues. Everyone in the program takes great pains to tell me that it's not that he's delayed or that there is something wrong with him, but that he has trouble absorbing and interpretting sensory input. I'm told that everyone has sensory issues to some degree (i.e. sensitivity to scratchy clothes, loud nosies, etc.) but with some kids it interfers with development and makes them very unfocussed. Right now, Donny sees a occupational therapist once a week (it's really just playtime for Donny) and we've really noticed a huge difference in his speech since he started. He is much calmer and speaks in sentances - things that were very rare before. He used to be almost uncontrollable much of the time. Like I said, Donny sounds a lot like Malachi so I know how exhausted you must feel - best wishes!

Wouldn't you know if it is sensory though? Like i mean wouldn't he like not like certain textures and he is fine with all noices and stuff... sensory stuff doesn't seem to bother him at all.
I have said that I was gonna wait till 3 to start speech because I think some kids just talk later. It's only free till they are 3 though, and he is almost 3. I wonder what they would do after 3. I am not really against anykind of therepy that only involves playing, but what exactly do they do that is different than what we can do at home? I want to know what they do so I can try it myself! LOL Or is it just the whole being with someone else thing?
thanks

Crystal

harvestgirl · 07-22-2003, 12:18 PM

wow. sounds tough.
i know nothing about sensory issues, etc.. so wouldn't dare to offer advice.
it sounds like he is frustrated he isn't verbal & that is his way of communicating to you {the screaming at the door}

and this may be pretty extreme for you, but just so you all can go outside.. have you thought of getting one of those harness things? i hate those & they are kinda creepy.. BUT i have seen the ones that have velcro at the wrist for him & then you

if he doesn't like it, then you go back in. if he wants to be outside, you two are connected.
i'd explain gently to him that you all want to enjoy being outside, but he can't be running off.i dunno... just a thought.

goodluck.

TurtleMa · 07-22-2003, 12:24 PM

Crystal, He sounds alot like HUnter a year ago.

Hunter didn't talk until after he was three. He had said lots of words up to that point but he talked very little. MIL says that all 3 of her boys were the same way. He didn't listen to me and would do what he was going to do. He has not until recently let us read to him or sit down and "teach" him. HE threw screamiong fits most every day. Basically he did many many of the things that you decribe about Malachi.

It got 1000 times better once he started talk! It was truely like night and day. HE was a completly different kid. At first he was hard to understand (people outside our family could understaand him very little) he has a slight lisp (I think he is slightly tounge tied, we had minor issues w/ BF latch ect) and he stuttered. But still he was able to communicate and the fits all but disappeared. Now he talks very well and NON STOP! his lisp has great ly improved and everyone can understand him and the stutter is completely gone. He listens as well as a 4 year old ever does (selective hearing you know!) He has started throwing fits agian but it is just a ploy to get his way when I say no and is a complete put on, fake crying and all, not a melt down! LOL

I know it is hard to deal with especially when DH is gone (mine travels for weeks at a time for work). Most of this happened while I was pg and when dd was tiny so it just adds to the stress.
It does get better and once it starts to get better it does so rather quickly! The fence in the back yard will help you a ton, I am sure, he will be able to run and you will get a break!

twiceblessed · 07-22-2003, 12:53 PM

Ok so being one of the people who has actually spent time with the boy and I second that there is nothing wrong with him.

I think you need to read Raising Your Spirited Child. It doesn't try to solve your problems or "fix" your child but helps you to understand and cope with him and help him understand his spirit.

I love that book!
That and I think you could use some advice from moms of very gifted kids. I think gifted kids function differently and he sounds like that too. Maybe an IRL support group or just yahoo groups for the time being??

mamabear · 07-22-2003, 12:54 PM

Ha ha...velcro at the wrist...riiiiip...outta there. That would be Jake anyway...believe me, I have considered it.

Crystal...I have been thinking about you lately, because Jake is seriously Malachi's long-lost brother, as I've said before, and we are dealing with some similar issues. The knowing lots of things in one way (Jacob can count to twenty perfectly, but the words are garbled, but if I count on my hands as he does it, I can tell he is getting it exactly, he can identify numbers 1-5, but only by himself, talking softly to himself, if I try to interject he will want me to say them ALL and won't talk again), and being totally clueless and nonresponsive to requests like "Get your shoes."

I started reading The Out of Sync Child...I looked at it at my office so I haven't read it all the way through. But the descriptions of kids who are hypOsensitive (ie, under-sensitive) to stuff fit Jacob almost exactly. High tolerance for pain, likes to do big, bold physical stuff in an attempt to get more stimulation. I thought he might have speech delay, and possibly sensory integration dysfunction.

I also have started wondering about autism due to some of the symptoms...like not making eye contact often, not very related to other people. The selective hearing, some repetitive stuff he does, liking to balance on things, being fascinated with parts of objects. But, he also has above average fine and gross motor skills, and does do some imaginary/symbolic play, and does play well/get along fine with other kids, though he mostly does parallel play not interactive.

Gosh I don't have many suggestions, and feel very fragmented as far as writing today! But, I guess I am saying I hear you, I am right there with you -- but I am not 30 wks pregnant, and my dh is home! I can't even imagine how taxed you must be with those extra stressors.

I am going to pursue further evaluation for Jacob, like with a good ped and possibly a developmental ped and/or psychologist. I have started speech therapy with him and I really like the person. They really do know what they are doing, and there is a factor that they are not the parent so Jake does respond better in some ways to her. Also, what she suggested is constant repetition and modeling of the speech. So when he brings you the cereal: "Malachi wants cereal, wants cereal, wants cereal?" ad nauseum, even hold back the cereal a while trying to get him to say it (but I wouldn't be so mean as to require him to speak to get food, you are just trying to elicit the speech). Do that with everything you can. I think here is where the "AP" style may conflict...I know I have tended to get him what he wanted if the message/prop was clear even if he didn't use language. But you kind of have to help/nudge him along at this point...gently, but for me it isn't natural or instinctive.

Hope something I've said has made some sense!

Edited to add: Two other books I'm looking at getting are Late-Talking Children and I think The Einstein Syndrome? Both are by the same author and are about bright but late-talking kids.

maryalene · 07-22-2003, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hannahsorchard
Wouldn't you know if it is sensory though? Like i mean wouldn't he like not like certain textures and he is fine with all noices and stuff... sensory stuff doesn't seem to bother him at all.
I have said that I was gonna wait till 3 to start speech because I think some kids just talk later. It's only free till they are 3 though, and he is almost 3. I wonder what they would do after 3. I am not really against anykind of therepy that only involves playing, but what exactly do they do that is different than what we can do at home? I want to know what they do so I can try it myself! LOL Or is it just the whole being with someone else thing?
thanks
Crystal

I was always skeptical about the sensory thing with Donny since he doesn't seem to have any problems with textures, etc. But the therapists we've been working with say that with him it manifests more in his throwing toys, screaming, pushing his dump truck into the wall etc. For example, when Donny used to play, he would throw everything out of the toybox and run from toy to toy without spending much time playing with anything. The therapists say that when Donny does that he looking for sensory feedback. They say that it's almost like with a lighter object, he can't feel it and he's not getting the input he needs so he tosses it aside looking for something heavier. And he goes from activity to activity searching for something that gives him the sensory feedback he's looking for. As a result of constantly looking for appropriate feedback, he is very unfocussed which makes him loud and makes him appear to be hyperactive. A couple of the therapists I've spoken with strongly feel that a lot of school age kids diagnosed with ADD and ADHD actually have sensory issues that should be addressed instead of medication. Anways, I know it all sounds really wacky - I feel odd whenever I try to describe it to anyone, but I can't deny that the therapy and activities we're doing at home have had a big impact on Donny.

A lot of the therapy things Donny does with the occupational therapist can be done at home too. We bounce Donny on a ball, jump and spin with him, do arm and leg compressions, deep massages and roll him up tight in a blanket. They also gave us a brush to use on him at home which we did for a while until he started not wanting to wear him short. In therapy, they just have other equipment like a huge (taller than me) inflatable mattress (?) that they have him climb over, a ball pit, tunnels, swings, etc.

But this has worked for us - of course you know Malachi and I don't so it may not be sensory at all, but I just wanted to throw this out there as food for thought.

momof2peewees · 07-22-2003, 02:35 PM

He sounds kind of like my nephew and he has gotten much better with the treatments like what Maryalene said. He was seeing a speech therapist and he's doing lots better. There isn't anything wrong with having them evaluate him and give him and you some suggestions for helping with his speech. One of the things they had him do was blow bubbles with a very small hole, I can't remember the rationale but that was one suggestion the therapist had. As far as the sensory goes, he wasn't bothered by textures except food. They've been using massage and compressions that someone from our church recommended and they've really helped. Otherwise, I'm sorry and I hope you get something figured out! I'll be thinking of you, Tina

DEandF · 07-22-2003, 03:03 PM

I only have a minute, but I have a friend who has a difficult, late talking boy too, and she has found these two books to be invaluable:

The Einstein Syndrome: Bright Children Who Talk Late
by Thomas Sowell

Edison Trait: Saving the Spirit of Your Nonconforming Child by Lucy Jo Palladino

She's gone from thinking that her son has SID, to maybe mild autisim, and finally decided he's more than likely an Einstein Syndrome child... Good luck!!!

magickalchylde · 07-22-2003, 03:11 PM

a huge difference. We went from not being able to take him anywhere without a meltdown to him being able to vocalize(scare people) and tell people "no touch" "no talk". DS was first identified as autistic at 27months and then at around 32 months he all of a sudden started talking. I mean we went from 3-5 words maybe to "mom mom make a cup of milk". He went from basically no verbality to he hasn't stopped talking since march LOL. We did a lot of therepies to help him also. DS is hyper sensative. The sound of women laughing drives him nuts, any kind of sing songish saprano singing, the vacumn, all bother him really badly. Light is a major issue, he is very very photosensative and hates hats! I got him some sunglasses with a strap that with a lot of work he will tolerate now. Oh and people! At first we could safetly add one or two new people to his enviroment(our house) without a meltdown then we got so we could go to someones house as long as there were just one of 2 people there. Walmart and the PO I still don't do with him. Some older man tried to touch DS while he was IN THE SLING AND UNDER A BLANKET, and ds popped out, smacked the guys hand and said "no touch" in this slightly demonic tone. LOL I learned my lesson that day. Not sure if you suffer from what we do with red heads also, but everyone and thier brother wants to rub my kids head like he is buddha and gonna give them good luck! Well maybe okay for social kids but it sinks the day for us. Umm, some things to try, since you sew maybe try making him a pressure vest for security. If he is seeking stimuli it will give him a little. I made one for DS and used neoprene and just made it a little over a size too small. I try and also think of DS like a cat. He comes to me when he wants things. I leave the snack tray out, and I have activities set up all around the house for him. I agree that Malachi knows more than you think. When DS started talking we found out that not only could he count to 25 but he knew his alphabet and now he can write it. He is voracious for learning now. He knows ALL his shapes even the odder ones. His mind is very concrete and where you drive and see a house hunter see's a square, a triangle and a rectangle...He takes things apart with his mind(and irl). I don't regret the testing at all...I got a ton of advice and will miss his ECI counselor since we lose services this month. Oh and go ahead and put him on the fast tract for testing that way you can get and ECI counselor and if there is a delay that needs to be addressed they can ehlp you get started with the school system there.
Many Blessings
Jennifer

pmjmomma · 07-22-2003, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by twiceblessed

That and I think you could use some advice from moms of very gifted kids. I think gifted kids function differently and he sounds like that too. Maybe an IRL support group or just yahoo groups for the time being??

Funny you should mention that - from reading the OP I was thinking the same thing. IRL support - good luck. There is pretty good internet support, though.

link for ya - http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/dabrowskis.htm read through that and see how it "feels". The whole site is excellent, but it sounds like you should start where that link takes you. My oldest dd is the one that has some of these oversensitivities to a point to drive me up a wall, but she's also eerily emotionally mature and has been since she was tiny. So she's not been as hard to parent. Also she was speaking in sentances at 1. I didn't know how good I had it until. . .

Ah, where do I start with Mackenzie. . . Sounds a lot like Malachi (btw, Hannah and my Peri could be twins too, fwiw. Maybe the heavens will have mercy and your baby will be the easiest baby in the universe like my Jill. . . ). I just don't know how else to describe it. Maybe a little less "boy" than Malachi - for instance she's never crawled out a window, lol. But so many other similarities. . .

FWIW, a child can be gifted and autistic at the same time, but there can also be many other explainations. Some of what you mention does sound like sensory stuff - the food, craving swinging. . .

I will say that now that she is approaching 4, we see improvement almost weekly. She's getting much better at impulse control, although I still go to sleep more than exhausted each night. . .

Oh, and should you choose to persue services, after 3 you go through the school district. Don't expect miracles, this is Delaware after all, lol. I had to explain many, many times over to our PT (Mackenzie has gross motor delays too) why I wasn't putting the baby in hard shoes (at 3 months) and a baby bjorn. She just kept repeating "that must be new information. . . I've never heard that." Um, yeah, I learned all of this when my almost 6 year old was a baby and it's not even my profession, yk?

What's your schedule like? Wanna meet? I'll come down your way if you can think of somewhere that would work for you. I can bring The Out of Sync Child, Raising Your Spirited Child and the birth ball that I forgot about until just now, lol.

hannahsorchard · 07-22-2003, 03:52 PM

I have been reading everyones replies about sensory and I know it sounds like I am just in denial... because I am sure the way it is typed out... and since I can't explain everything... it does sound like sensory. But I really don't believe it sounds like what his deal his. Even with the food thing... it's not a sensory thing because he used to eat everything. And then it was like one by one he started getting bored of things and not eating them anymore. Maybe I wasn't that great with making tons of new stuff. I dont know. But he did eat tons of stuff and now he only eats stuff that he has been eating for a while now. He just won't try new things. He *did* try a cheez it a couple weeks ago which i was highly impressed about! He doesnt mind messy stuff... he just won't eat it. His diet basically consists of bananas, healthy valley breakfast bars, bagels, toast, rice cakes, grilled cheese, egg salad, pancakes, pizza (his fav thing and he says pizza all the time lol)... He used to also eat like tuna fish, turkey and cheese, peanut butter and jelly, apples, pears, pineapple, raisons.... the list goes on. And like I said, it was like he would drop one food out at a time as if he got sick of it.
With the swinging, I don't think him wanting to swing is a craving... it's just something he likes to do just like he likes to go down the slide. It's fun and he sees it there and doesnt understand why I can't let him swing. Hope I explained that right! But I can promise that him swinging doesnt have anything to do with anything other than the fact he enjoys to swing like most kids do

Jennifer, my schedule is pretty much always clear! lol I do go to see my midwife an hour north on the 1st. This Friday I have to hang out all day cause housing is putting in a vanity. I think that is it though. Do you want to try to go to that Piccadilly Castle at that park sometime? I would love to borrow those books!!! Oh and the birth ball would be awesome too lol. We will have to look at the weather channel to see when it wont be raining!

Jennifer (sabrinalee) NO ROFL we have never had anyone rub their heads for good luck! Too funny! I am glad your ds is doing awesome, i remember talking on the phone about all this stuff