amitymamaThe Attachment Parenting Community

Phoenix~Rose · 01-18-2003, 04:31 PM

May I make a suggestion?

I think that in some deeper sense, Nico feels pretty powerless. And I think that she is very likely having some conflicted feelings about being a "big girl" when possibly what she really needs is more "little kid" nurturing. She might have missed some essential nurturing when she was very small.

What "time-out" in this case most likely will accomplish is a feeling of rejection in Nico, and resentment. She probably already feels a bit excluded from her daddy's life because she only gets weekends. But this is NO excuse for her behavior.

One technique that we have used with some of our foster children is called:"Time In" This is a very labor intensive technique for the parents but well worth it in the long run.

Example:

Nico hurts Kaya. You express your disapproval, and set Nico down on a chair in the room where you are. You comfort Kaya.

You explain to Nico, preferably with J. there also, that you have seen that she cannot be trusted alone with Kaya or any smaller child at this time. Tell her that you think that she might have some sad feelings inside and that is why she hurts the baby, but that you want her to talk to you about what is bugging her, rather than deal with her continued hitting.

But anyway, you then explain to her that Nico will have to spend the rest of the weekend in "time In". In other words, wherever you go, she goes. She is allowed to play quietly wherever you are. She follows you from room to room. (yes, this is very hard on the mama!but mom and dad can switch off. ) You tell Nico that she has to stay with an adult and follow them along so she can watch *how* to act nicely to others. And because you love her so much and you would miss her if she was in her room for a long time, you will keep her with you but she has no priviliges like playing in the yard or in another room. You will have to *help* her not hurt others, until she can show you that she is ready to control her hitting(next weekend give her short intervals to "practice" this and earn your trust).

Now during this Time In, I would recommend some bonding activities to help facilitate positive feelings in her that will overflow in her interaction with Kaya. Make lots of eye contact, and here and there when she looks at you, pop something sweet in her mouth. Doesn't have to be candy, as long as it is something she likes. The theory is that breastmilk is sweet, and that combined with eye contact in newborns creates pathways in the brain that create the bonding cycle. By making eye contact with her while putting something sweet in her mouth (don't let her do it herself!) you are simulating the attachment cycle. Also important is rocking and touch.

I know this is not an easy solution, but it may adress a more complete spectrum of "issues" while adressing her hurting other children.

Soryy for the epic lenght!!!

mamabear · 01-18-2003, 04:50 PM

Meeshi, I know how powerless you feel to stop Nico's behavior. I do have to agree with others who have said that the long time-out is overly harsh for a 4 yo and likely to lead to more resentment and problems in the long run, and also possibly damage to self-esteem. That does not mean you tolerate the behavior, either.

I dealt with this when Jacob was tiny. Katie had just turned two and it seemed that her main goal in life was to harm Jacob. We did a few phone counseling sessions with Naomi Aldort and got to the bottom of the issue: that Katie was feeling unloved and unwanted, and she really wanted to make Jacob go away so she could have us to herself. Yet she knew that that was a "terrible" think to wish for, for your brother to die or go away forever, so she felt even worse about herself. It can be a vicious cycle.

We dealt with it successfully but it did recur mildly when Jacob started to walk -- and this may be what is going on with Nico. Kaya is now a walking toddler and more of a "direct threat" to Nico. She's suddenly just like her and she may be feeling jealousy that she has not previously experienced.

Here is how we dealt with it. When she hit or hurt, we did what Allison said, basically. I said "Katie, I have a need for everyone in this house to be safe. Please go to your room until you can control yourself and not hit or hurt Jacob. This is very important." It was up to her to decide when she'd calmed down enough to come back out. When she came out we'd hug and say something positive and reinforce that she needed to control herself or back in her room again. I also never ever left them alone together during this time. When I saw her going for him I would block her physically, take her aside and give her love and attention. I would say "I love you even while I hold Jacob," and "I see that you are needing my attention. Hurting Jacob is not the way to get that. Come here and I will give you a hug. I love you very much."

I also -- and this I think was key -- spent one on one time with her while Jacob was asleep. During this "special time," sometimes, we talked about her feelings toward her brother. I said how I sometimes wished, when I was little, to throw my brother in the garbage because I was so mad that he took up so much of my mom's time. We acted things out with dolls, and got her to say her true feelings...that she hated him and wished he would go away. We made sure to tell her that her feelings were okay and that we loved her no matter what.

Ugh I am going to be sick...blech...thought I was over this stomach flu but I guess not. That's it from me!

Momof6 · 01-18-2003, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by )O(Meeshi)O(
I wanted to add that I don't think it is an attention thing, either. Nico and I do crafts, worksheets and activities all day long. She gets more of my attention that Kaya does, it seems.

Meeshi,

Boy, you have received a lot of responses! I don't have time to read them all to make sure I am not repeating someone, so please forgive me if I am indeed repeating.

Some physical aggression between siblings is normal. I'm not suggesting that adults needs to let it go without using the moment to teach.......but all six of ours will physically fight on occasion. (especially our girls)

I'm not sure where you stand with discipline so I'll offer a couple of suggestions.

You can use punitive discipline which would include taking something away or having Nico have time-out. (with time out, only one minute per year in age) But if doing this, you have to use a lot of talking to make sure Nico understands the "whys" and that you offer her alternative ways to deal with her anger (like making a angry pillow for her to use) If you don't talk and offer alternatives, then she will just get very resentful and more angry. I think time-out is fine to use...but ONLY when used with education and alternatives.

(a "angry pillow" can be a store bought pillow or one you sew. Just make a mad looking face on it so Nico identifies with it and can take her frustrations out on the pillow.....I know this technique is not one that everyone agrees on...but IMHO anger is healthy and we need to learn how to vent anger in appropriate ways)

If you are against this, then you could make a reinforcement chart. In education-speak we call it token economy. You can do this in many many ways. I'll just throw out a suggestion and you will probably come up with a idea that is tailored right to Nico. You could make up a grid chart or a simple line drawing (like a spiral). Have small stickers or a stamp.....I'm thinking about those inexpensive star stickers that schools use. You'll have to decide in what units you want to break this down.....you may choose daily, or hourly or every 6 hours etc.....with Nico's age, I'd probably use mealtimes as my time to check behavior, talk to her about it and place a star on her chart. She only gets a star if she did not hurt Kaya during that timeframe. This means physical and verbal. At the end of the chart, Nico gets to do something special or you could have a small treasure box that you have filled with small prizes and she gets to choose from it. She can then show her chart to Daddy when he gets home and she will feel such a accomplishment!

**Note: if you are using a line drawing, then put a star along the line until the lines are all covered.

Now....the question most often asked about this method is, "Won't my child become dependent on getting something for being good?". Well, Nico needs to learn to not hurt others. She is not learning it by watching you and J model behavior....but modeling behavior is important so don't think your modeling is not good! You need to use external motivation (the stars) to get her on the path of proper behavior........she will feel good inside from this accomplishment, therefore gaining internal motivation for behaving, and you will eventually be able to wean the program out.

For weaning from token economy, move from giving stars at mealtimes to only once a day.......then every other day, etc.....

Please beware that with any behavior modification plan, Nico's behavior will spike and get really bad before it starts to get better. So don't give up!!! I can't remember what the peak time is (I haven't taught for a few years so I'm a bit rusty).....but I'm thinking the bad behavior will peak about 5-10 days after you start any behavior modification program.

Please feel free to ask me any clarifying questions if you want to. You can also email me since I don't come here too often anymore. (trying to get my HP training done by the second week of July) michelleinne@yahoo.com

Bright Blessings and Hugs,

Jade
(Michelle)

***edited to add, It is me MICHELLE! *lol* I accidentally signed this post with the other name I use nearly everywhere else online.

julia · 01-18-2003, 05:59 PM

i say the last 3 responses are THE best. really, i beg you, don't put her in time out for so long. the rule is only one minute per year of age. four seems so big to you because kaya is so small but 4 is still a baby really. emotionally she is still very needy and that kind of rejection is too much.

believe me i feel your frustration and need for an immediate result. you want kaya to be safe and that is a very important and valid need. i really need for my baby to be safe too. it really really gets to me when emme has bit him or pushed him over or thrown something at him (or me). it infuriates me. but... i forget that she has some very powerful needs too. she has no idea how to cope with that.

i don't think that nico is really trying to hurt her to the point of destruction. i am sure that it will continue but there will be an end.

try not to see nico as a "mean" child because she is hurting kaya. she just has some needs that are not being met. find them and try to meet them and the behavior will start to go away.

i wish you luck and strength...

julia

woodfairie · 01-18-2003, 07:08 PM

I really worry that such a long time out will really be damaging to Nico. Such a long period of isolation could really leave her feeling like a "bad" girl, unlovable, etc. And I believe that the aggression might become even worse as a result of the punishment!! Try developing a more reasonable consequence (I love the idea of the time-in...that is wonderful!!)...or maybe losing some special priviledge.
Children do not usually just begin misbehaving (especially aggressively) for no reason. It sounds like there is something bothering Nico, and if you help her express it, you will be better able to teach her alternative things to do besides showing aggression. It sounds like you are a wonderful step-mother to Nico!! You might even give her more attention and love then she receives at her mothers! I am thinking that it is probably very hard to leave your family at the end of the weekend and wait an entire week (an endlessly long time to a four year old) before she sees you again. I have a four year daughter, and am single. My dd sees her dad almost every day, but still misses him horribly on the few days she does not see him. (and misses me horribly when I go to work). Nico might not be able to express that she misses you or is lonely...try to give her the words to express herself!
I would recommend focusing on Nico's positive behaviors. Reinforce the things she does right as much as possible (playing nicely with Kaya, being gentle with Kaya, using kind words to Kaya). Set up some reinforcement chart. You could provide her with a sticker each weekend day that she uses gentle hands, and if she makes it through the entire weekend without hitting or biting, let her select something special that she would like to do (it might be something that she wants to do as a family, or a special alone time thing that she wants to do with either you or her father). Spend lots of time talking about gentle touches (you could make cut outs of hands and have her think of gentle touches and rough touches). Teach her empathy...talk alot about how sad and scared Kaya was when she was bit/hit. Ask Nico to describe how she would feel if she was hit or bit or ??? Give her lots of ways to express her feelings...read books about feelings and then personalize it (when do you feel sad like that?) Make up stories together or act out using her dollhouse dolls about a little girl in a very similar situation to Nico (living in two houses, going back and forth, having a sister and dad who she only sees on weekends). Young children might be unable to express how they are feeling, but will describe it through play or art or stories.

You might find the book, "parenting young children" very helpful. It focuses on understanding the causes of the misbehavior, and developing natural or logical consequences.
good luck!!
christy

ThirtySomething · 01-19-2003, 11:09 AM

I hear you and I fully understand. Having older kids has been a real eye-opener for me. As a book that I read said: I was a perfect parent until I had children. rofl!!

Two books that I have read that have been the most important to me are:

How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
and
Siblings Without Rivalry

Both are incredible and full of insight. Your local library should have them or be able to get copies of them.

While I fully agree that Nico can't hurt her sister, her punishment of a full evening of time out is both arbitrary and excessive. She is a just a little one too. She may not even connect the time out with her action after a time. They forget. Also, would you want to be reminded of something bad you did over and over and over?

You received some good advice that I do agree with. I just want you to know that the actual actions of Nico are normal and not excessively violent as scary as it seems to you. Also, you answered one of your own questions:

You said you were at the point where you didn't want to leave them alone together. This is probably a good idea until you've had some time to figure out how to deal with this. Until then, your entire family will feel badly and uncertain.

pmjmomma · 01-19-2003, 12:48 PM

In our family, it's our middle dd who uses violence. She's 3.5.

Everyone else has pretty much covered it. . . I will say that you might have to try a few of the suggestions before you find a good fit for your situation.

One thing that we also do is to make it clear that violent behavior hurts both the victim *and* the attacker. I always found the attacking child to be left with a powerful negative feeling after and incident, and am quick to point this out. This seems to help my dd stop and think twice - sometimes she really stops herself.

Also - at 4.5, is she old enough to understand the concept that just as you need to ensure that no one hurts Kaya, you also do the same for her? After the first incident, she may have developed a feeling that you will protect kaya *above* her. KWIM? that's one thing that my 3yo recently told me. . . that she has to hit to protect herself, b/c I always protect my 5 yo. That's not exactly true, of course, it's just that no one has attacked my 3 yo. But to a child, perception is reality. . .

Also, just an observation, the incident you describe with the other boy over the carrots? Where you say that she said she did it so he wouldn't take all of the carrots, but there were plenty left? You're looking at the situation from an adults POV - plenty of carrots to share. I always get into trouble when I think like an adult.

Just off the top of my head, I can come up with 1)a child is not really aware of how much she or another child might eat. All she knows is that there is someone else depleting the stack of carrots 2) maybe last week she was somewhere where another child horded a common snack, and she went without 3) maybe she feels tired of having to share things when visiting her sister - at her house she's an only child, right? 4) maybe she feels that when she is not at your house, she has no control over who touches *her* stuff, so she needs to establish dominance when she *is* there. . .

Not to say that the behavior is appropriate, it isn't. But I have found that my children always have very real reasons for doing what they do, even if they can't articulate them. Sometimes I have to watch a while to see what is really going on. . .

Good luck. I know that this must be very frustrating for you. . .

deb215 · 01-20-2003, 04:50 PM

i did not read the other responses so I am sorry if this is repeated-

To me it sounds like she is getting possesive since kayah started to walk and get into more of 'her' things. It may also be an age thing - my ds started testing his limits BIG time at about this age. I barely turn away and he would push his sister (could still see it out of the corner of my eye). What I do with ds is alot of time outs - take away fav. toy - ask 'how would you feel if that happened to you'. Worked some for us but we still have our battles.

hth
(((((

mzbees · 01-20-2003, 05:14 PM

How about a "cuddle corner?" She can have her quiet time there when she is feeling out of control. Make it soft and fun with lots of pillows, quiet toys, books, crayons....something tactile to engage both sides of the brain.

For the first few times, you may need to accompany her to the corner. Saying something like, "Let's read a book, color a picture, etc...." This is along the lines of what Allison said above about Ara sitting on the couch. Soon, she will start to head there herself when she is feeling out of control.

When things have simmered down, tell her something like, "I feel sad when you choose to hurt Kaya/Emmett. We do not hurt people in our house. We use our words, not our hands. When you feel someone is bothering you, get me because it is your job to have fun and play. It is my job to make sure you are all safe."

Punitive punishments such as timeouts, spankings, etc...damage a child's self-esteem and trust.

~Denise~ · 01-21-2003, 04:38 PM

If you opt for time-outs, I believe current recommendation from AP and non-violent experts is 1 minute for every year of the child....so 4 minutes for a 4 yo and 7 min for a 7 yo....believe me, at their ages, that is long enough and feels like forever. LOL. When we use them, Justin is 4, and 2 min. did the same as 3-4 minutes, and actually better since he was not given too much time to get aggravated, fidgety, etc. We did not want to be excessive at all, just use what works gently. (This is also the recommendation in books like "How To Behave So Your Child Will Too" and the timeout magic book)