I am nearing the end of my rope with my oldest ds, who will be 11 this month. And NO this is not new behavior due to upcoming puberty, or even due to this divorce.

He's been in counseling for several months now for anger control. He has outbursts, but only at home... NEVER at school or church, or with his friends. Some of it gets better, overall it's better, but it's just not good enough. The rest of us can hardly breath or open our mouths w/o him telling us what to do, how to think, etc. I mean EVERYwhere... at the dinner table, in the car... it's quite abusive!

When he sits in the counseling session (1x per week, and I go with him) he is so sweet. I *know* he wants to make these changes. He commits to doing certain things and talks so eloquently. It's not fake, I know it's sincere. But once he's back in our family environment all h*ll breaks loose again. He won't do the things he's committed to do earlier, he just has no control.

The counselor set us up with a "helper." He's a college student who is a "buddy" to ds. They have weekly meetings and do fun stuff, but he has to be accountable for any anger outbursts etc., and the fun activity is cancelled if he can't get it under control. Well the problem is, ds has no anger probs with this guy around. It's only 1x per week so it's different enough that he can control his anger. So it's just fun and games.

I have really just absolutely had it. He is destroying this family. He is just flat out MEAN and cruel. I'm thinking I just need to turn into ms. stricter-than-anything mother. I think I'm just going to take away all of his choices and freedoms, and he has to earn each one, each time. No field trips, no summer day camp, no summer vacation with the family... I mean, YES he CAN do these things, but he will HAVE to be kind and control his anger, and he will HAVE to pull his weight in this family. I wonder how I can set this up??? Anyone ever needed to take things this drastically? Really like a "tough love" kind of situation. Not like punishment, like back to ground zero for this out of control kid.

I'm also going to discuss medication with the counselor at the next visit. This is getting so desperate. :(

Anyway, I swear if even one of you mamas with very young children try to tell me I'm off base, you better put your flame-proof suit on b/c I will not react well right now! lol! Seriously though, please help if you can. But unless you've lived through it or have older kids, you just don't know what it can be like.

Hey Mary,

Can I suggest a good book? Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child : Eliminating Conflict by Establishing Clear, Firm, and Respectful Boundaries (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0761521364/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/103-1731208-9673416?v=glance&s=books&st=*)

Sounds like boundaries at home are an issue. I think that he CAN control himself, or else he would be like that all the time including school. I was a teacher for 13 years and know that children act differently with different expectations.

I don't know what to say, but I'd reconsider medication if he can control himself in different situations.

I'll try to think of more, but it can't be easy, my heart and prayers are going in your direction!!

Meg

so if I had done all those things that you did, my child would have turned out polite and lovely like yours? :confused:

And no, I'm no fun and I don't want to be a friend. :eek:

I didn't realize that I need to be that good of a mother for my kids to be expected to not verbally abuse their siblings.

I know you're trying to help Meg. But it just doesn't make sense to me. I'm no princess, but I try. I DO have a child who is just as you described in your copied post. Actually I have 3 of them, and 2 of them are only barely 4, and 21 months. They are amazingly behaved and wonderful (usually). That's "who" they are. But this oldest guy is a passionate hot-head. it's AWESOME when it's expressed positively. He's a deep thinker, and feels a lot of deep emotions. But it goes both ways, and the negative is outweighing the positive most of the time now.

I'll check out that link too.

Mary - I don't have older kids, but I was an out of control teen and DH and I have both had to deal with our own anger management. I think you are right on with the tough love. He can control himself (he does it elsewhere). He has to choose to do it in the home. You are under no obligation to make life plesant for an abusive person.

Have you tried anger management? Perhaps some physical outlet too (karate, boxing, running, chopping wood, weightlifting). DH had a great counselor that specialized in this specific issue.

And don't beat yourself up - As parents, you can do everything perfect and still have children who choose wrong behavior. FWIT - I will probably be in your shoes with my oldest when he is that way - he has many anger issues (wonder where he gets that!) and we do the best over here, but it's a struggle. My other 3 are not that nature at all.

If you are a Christian - I recommend doing an internet search on Theophostic or Inner Healing. It is a prayer ministry that lets God do the healing deep within us. I strongly recommend that he go before the Lord and ask the Lord to turn his heart - he's done all he can with his own power, sounds like it's time to let the Lord do the work. If you aren't Christian, I hope I didn't just offend you.

Melinda

Oh mama...

Been there done that in a BIG way.

First of all. The book:"When Love is Not Enough" by Nancy Thomas. Will walk you step by step through your new tough love program. You can order it at www.nancythomasparenting.com

Secondly, I have unlimited long distance and training as a therapeutiuc foster parent. Pm me with your number and I would be happy to call you and brainstorm with you over the phone.

I am here if you need me.

Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt and you can HAVE it! :p

In my NSHO, the ages from 11-13 are the absolute WORST of any age--they make the "terrible twos" look like a walk in the park.

OK, now that you are wrapped in my sympathy here is what I suggest after having been through this stage with four daughters (some of whom had a rougher time than others) :

1) Keep reminding yourself how much in love you were with that sweet little newborn. :-)

2) Pick your battles!

3) Write up a contract--with unacceptable behaviors and consequences and both of you sign it--and then always follow through. Um, it may take you and his dad several sessions before you can get past the built-up frustration to a document that will work for your family.


4)When you get to "your" final version, then go over with your son and include some of "his" input to end up with a final contract that all parties "own".

5) Make sure there are some "carrots" in that contract, too--to encourage appropriate behaviors instead of just punishing inappropriate behaviors.

6) Remember that life is rough right now for him, too--and home is where he feels safest "letting go"--so make sure to have some positive, listening time with him when you are both at peace (grab those moments when they come because there may be times when they are very rare).

7) Treasure the occasional glimmers of the adult he will be someday and remind yourself that, the older he gets, the smarter you'll get. :D

8) Console yourself that HIS kids will return the "favor" someday. (heh, heh, heh)

thank you all for your responses. Thank you for being so loving.

Melinda, I am Christian, but even if I wasn't I would not be offended at all! Ds is quite spiritual by nature, so I will talk to him about doing this also. We have discussed physical outlets for his anger. We were thinking about making some beanbags he can throw against his wall. I have mixed feelings about that kind of stuff, but defer to the professionals. He has committed in counseling to "run around the house" as part of his response to anger, but again, he has never followed through.

Anna, quite frankly I was hoping you would respond! I know you gave me that link before when we discussed another child close to me. I'll look it over again.

Grandmommy, the thought of a contract is overwhelming to me right now, but I will discuss this with his counselor and see what we can do. Thank you for the suggestions.

He's really an amazing kid... he's just got to get past this. I sense that he puts the weight of the world on his shoulders... he can never just relax and let things slide.

I hope I can find answers, thanks for offering some possible ones mamas.

Anna,

I just looked over the website and book info again. He def. does not have RAD. As I said, but didn't elaborate on, he's very hot and cold. As abusive as he can be, he can be just as passionately loving and caring. Will this book still be okay for us? I know you've told me before how the premise of how you deal with RAD children is quite a bit different than normal children. Would you recommend I alter anything?

Thanks.

Hey mama...

I have some time to throw out some more ideas now.

Some of these you might have read already in posts to others, but I will put them down anyway.

When my (foster) daughter would trash me verbally, hassle me, and basically suck up all of our time together with negativity, I would periodically remind her that I would rather spend positive time with her, but that I would love her regardless of her behavior choices. However, I would also tell her that if she continued on that path, "something will happen". No explanation.

The key here is not to elaborate on what will happen.

Now let me define her behavior a bit better. She would cuss me out, trash stuff that belonged to me, harrass me by following me around the house blocking my way knowing this would really upset me, and the list goes on, all the way to carving on herself, throwing extreme screaming fits accompanied by throwing stuff through the room (and with stuff I mean chairs!) and the grand finale being getting admitted to a 24 hour psych hold for carving her arm up with a piece of glass(from a picture frame she trashed).

We are not going to discuss the list of diagnoses this girl has but trust me, I was beginning to sound like somewhat of a psychologist after some time. :(

So...Sarah would act up all day.All week. The atmosphere was basically shot to a hot flamy place we all know and love, KWIM? And one evening one of my dear friends came to babysit. Babysit Sarah. Because by golly I was going to spend some time with my other 4 kids in a positive sense if it killed me. Sarah was of course very angry."How come I don't get to come with you???" And I explained calmly that I do my best to give all my children attention, and time with me. And that she had used up her time with me by her very negative behavior choices, and the other kids had had very little attention at all and now it was their turn. I told her that I loved her regardless of how she chose to spend her time with me, but we were all going to a movie and dinner and since her behavior had wore us out we were going to take good care of ourselves tonight so we would feel refreshed for another tough week ahead should she choose to continue to make bad choices and wear out mom. Now, if she chose NOT to wear us out as much next week, of course we would love to have her join us next week! Hug and out the door.

Something just happened. Just like you said it would. You warned the kid that this negative attention kick is going to backfire some time back because you have to share your time amongst the other kids too and this child is heading towards using it all up in a negative way.

I know this sounds harsh. However, the child's behavior choices are pretty darn harsh on the other kids AND on the parents. And it is so important to send the child the message that he/she is loved regardless, but that abusive behaviors are not going to earn them the opportunity to ruin a family outing and they have shown by their consistent choices that they are not ready for this outing. They are welcome to prove you otherwise for next week.
All units of concern for his/her behavior need to be with the child. (do keep in mind we are talking older kids here)

Fully expect a tantrum by the way. And ignore it. Express "sorry FOR the child, not mad AT the child".

One thing that we did for excessive tantrumming by the way went as follows. Sarah would not get her way. She would then throw a huge screaming raging fit (fill in your own experience here). This occurred many times a day. Great fun for the rest of the family. Such a control the tantrumming child has over the atmosphere. Again, we are talking older kid here, over age 10.

So...tantrum starts over denied request or limit set or held. Raging, hollering screaming etc etc. Please DO read that this technique is not for kids with autism or any developmental delays. It is used for children who use tantrumming to control and use it too often and affect the family with their constant raging.

Mom does not respond in a negative way and stays calm. She walks to the freezer, grabs a gallon of ice cream(or fill in your own treat) and makes the other children a bowl of the ice cream. Everyone eats their ice cream, the tantrum is ignored ( and by now probably halted in mid air because the screamer is staring in shock at this unexpected turn of events, realizing slowly that he/she is not offered any ice cream) When the child asks why he/she did not get any, mom replies:"Well...what was coming out of your mouth was not very nice and ,made us all feel bad. So I decided to do something nice for ourselves while you were raging.

Now..the key here is not to over explain and not offer ice cream. Be as "matter of fact" as you can muster. But over the course of the next few days, repeat this if needed. When, in time, you catch him/her being respectful, or notice that they chose to try a better response to a situation...then break out an unexpected treat and make a huge hoopla about this improved choice!!

Sarah quit tantrumming pretty quickly with the ice cream response and it relieved a very unpleasant moment for the other children.

Well, I hope this helps a little. These techniques are not liked by all but mostly used by parents who were ready to place a kid in residential treatment or group homes and I have seen many a tough kid improve in the home, needing less medication and feeling more in control when they were actually put "in control" of their own behavior choices and the resulting consequences, while being reminded that they are loved regardless.

Dang it, I can't seem to locate my flame proof suit.

Hiding under the table now...

The beauty of this book is that it is not just for RAD kids. She has a long list in the front of the book of problems this book will work for, and it covers ADHD, all the way to being plain spoiled rotten. It is a set of parenting techniques that focus on making the child responsible for their own choices and behaviors while improving their destructive choices. You don't have to alter a thing, but I have learned to "customize" it some to specific situations and like i said, would be happy to call you and help you out.

Hang in there!

Mary my oldest dd is 10. You've been given some advice so I just want to offer some insight. Do you think a lot of this acting out comes from feelings about your separation and divorce? Not a question that requires you to answer here just something to think about. Always a hard situation for children when mom and dad split up.

Originally posted by Avalons~Ashes
Hey mama...

I have some time to throw out some more ideas now.

Some of these you might have read already in posts to others, but I will put them down anyway.

Dang it, I can't seem to locate my flame proof suit.

Hiding under the table now...


Now Anna...WHY would you need your flame proof suit?!?:confused:

I absolutely love reading your insight especially since you have gone through so much with Sarah.

Originally posted by hadalamb
so if I had done all those things that you did, my child would have turned out polite and lovely like yours? :confused:

And no, I'm no fun and I don't want to be a friend. :eek:

I didn't realize that I need to be that good of a mother for my kids to be expected to not verbally abuse their siblings.

I'll check out that link too.

That is NOT what I meant at ALL Mary!!! That's why I said "I do NOT know if this is true for you" because I do not know your children. I am really really sorry you think I was trying to be snotty, I wasn't. I am sorry that clearly I hurt your feelings, I shouldn't have posted at all. I only quoted the other thread because I was lazy.

But that is a good book.

I don't think you were being snotty Meg, not at all. It IS hard to read about things like that though. It's just not so cut and dry with this child of mine, yk? It's not such an easy answer. I DO feel a lot of guilt, b/c I know I'm not the greatest mom. I keep working at it, and apologize when I screw up (way too often). I did not take it personally. I just felt misunderstood, but your intentions were clear. :) I apologize for not choosing my words more carefully.

Anna, I love everything you said. I could see with each example you used how that would really work for him!! MY problem is that I get too emotionally involved. That will be really hard for me. Is/was it for you? Ds is not as full of rage as Sarah, but the basic situations you described sound very similar... just take it down several notches. :)

Jen, he was like this before. only there were a lot more of his super-positive super-loving super-wonderful moments (he doesn't do much in between). Now there are very few of those. Of course I do know that the divorce can't be helping matters. We talk about those issues in counseling. Thankfully, he's very open with his feelings, so this isn't over bottled up feelings or anything. But yes, a divorce feels very out of control to a child, so I would imagine it's just escalating those feelings for him.

I feel like I have always had boundaries with my kids, but my consistency is where I struggle. I was spanked into submission as a child, and now as a mom I feel very conflicted in the position of disciplinarian. It doesn't feel right to me. I'm not sure if I'm explaining that right...

Oh, it was so hard for me to look emotionally "cool, calm and collected.." I knew I had to do it to help her heal, and because they push for your emotional response, that is a control issue in part. The other part of that is that there is a lot of chaos going on in this child's head to be acting out like this. So what does he do? He creates chaos around him (and does this so well) so he does not have to feel the chaos in his own head. You being emotionally very level and LOOKING like ( because inside you are fuming or heartbroken) you have it all together and calm is essential to his healing to a large degree. If he can get *you* all worked up then he is in control. If his pushing buttons only creates discomfort for him, well...he may just change his choices because *he* needs to feel conflicted about *his* behavior in order for change to occur.

This is the hardest part of this parenting technique. Sarah once tried to really hurt me and yelled:"You are a crappy mom. Hannah deserves a better mom than you!!" I looked her in the eye and said calmly:"That may well be, but I am all she has and I do believe the same goes for you". And walked away. To my bedroom. Where I cried for a really long time.

It hurts, mama. Just look at the emotional calm part as a mirror for him to see himself.

And I worry about getting flamed at times because not everyone recognizes my advice as techniques meant to facilitate change and treatment, NOT a parenting lifestyle. Someone (not on this board) called me harsh and punitive when I implemented some of my techniques. And it may look that way to those who do not live with the havoc an extremely difficult child can create for their families and themselves. There are group homes filled with kids (and not all foster kids!) who could no longer live at home due to behaviors. I belive in treating WITHIN a family as opposed to out of home treatment. That's why I was a therapeutic foster parent.

Anyway...off my soap box LOL