Evan's teacher gave me a copy. I have been telling her about problems I have been having with discipline. Evan follows directions and is fine at school, but at home the lack of boundaries is a major problem. Consequences make no difference and I need a new plan. Evan does much better with a lot of structure, and I really never provided him with enough of that. Anneka's teacher said she thought the book was a bit too strict, and she seems to be on the stricter side. I am trying to set firmer limits, he is really running the house right now. Anneka's teacher is like the buzzing flylady calling and reminding me to stick to a routine and put them to bed earlier so I won't be so stressed. They normally would not go to sleep until I went to bed with them, leaving me no alone time.
I am taking on one thing at a time, first bedtimes, next meal times. Both are very stressful events around here. Last night went OK, Evan did insist on sleeping in his tent and I let him have a flashlight to read by. He did come out a dozen times wanting things, I gave him water and walked him back in. Anneka didn't get the concept of staying in bed, but we were also stuck in traffic hours the day before and she napped the entire time. I told them at dinner time what we would be doing the rest of the night and after bath and bedtime stories they were going to stay in the bed. I told them they didn't have to sleep but did have to stay in bed. Anneka didn't, she feel asleep next to me in the living room. DH is gone nights so I am on my own with these battles, it would help if he were home to be with one while I was reading to the other.
I almost started reading the book after they were asleep but that was the last thing I wanted to read about to unwind.
Any thoughts on this book? I feel like I blew it in the discipline department and now I need to start over. I worry that it will be confusing to the kids, but I know I will have many battles but I do need to regain some order and as hard as it might be for a short while, it would be much more difficult if I didn't set limits now.
So, 123 magic, good or bad? I guess what I really it to be is effective.
TIA
Jen

1-2-3 Magic really has two parts. How to get the to stop doing what you don't want them to do and how to get them to start doing what you do want them to do (chores and homework that kind of thing). I've never used the book for the second part. That's not a problem here. We used it exactly as written, pretty much, for discipline from when Max was 2 years 3 months. It was very effective, and, we felt, compassionate of a child's needs to have some second chances without abdicating responsibility to be the parent.

There are some offenses where we do not count, it's straight into time out -- these are serious safety issues and any violence. Back talking adds ten minutes to a time out. I'm prety sure that's in there. That wasn't an issue here at all until he turned four.

Max is getting ready to turn seven and although I feel it's time to build in more of the responsibility-building things that is part of Positive Discipline, it's still an effective system for us.

Ben and Milo are almost 18 months. I think we'll start it when they're closer to 20 months.

When my ex and I seperated my life was in turmoil... my kids were demons and I was a bad parent :(

1-2-3 magic was my saving grace.

However, you must stick with it. Give it a full week before looking for any improvement.

Within, say 3-4 months.. I couldn't even get the 1 out of my mouth.. and my kids would stop doing whatever was annoying me.

I haven't read this book, but an old friend of mine really liked it. I think the book relies fairly heavily on time-outs. I am also unsure how I feel about not letting children have a say. When my friend used this book, she counted to three and there was no room for her children to say their feelings/opinions. I have a friend (different friend) who is adamant that her son will not negotiate. I think this book would definitely discourage that (negotiations) which I have mixed feelings about. I think I am trying to teach my children that there are certain issues for which there is no room for negotiation (i.e. safety issues), but in other ways I want to hear their opinions and feel I learn from them. My friend who uses 123 Magic says it works very well -- and I do believe it likely will at least for the short term. The question I always have is "at what cost?" I don't know the answer to that. I do know I'd rather see someone used 123 Magic then some of the other stuff out there I've seen (i.e. my brother uses Ezzo).

I recently read a book called Love and Logic. They have many types of these books -- for young children, school age children, teenagers, siblings, etc. I liked a lot of the ideas in the book. I did feel that time-outs could be used too easily, though the book really doesn't spend a great deal of time suggesting this. This book talks about giving children lots of choices to empower them, yet also setting limits by natural consequences when they need them. It has been kind of hard to change some things so that I use many of the techniques this book suggests, but I am finding that it does seem to help. Some examples I use:


Choices:

Elisha, do you want to go to bed now or in 5 minutes?

Elisha, do you want the red toothbrush or the blue toothbrush?

Consequences:

Elisha, do you want to put away your Hot Wheels or shall I? He says he wants me to do it. OK, but it will cost you. How shall you pay me? With your red car or your blue car?

Elisha, do you want to wear your Spiderman sneakers or your blue ones? He ignores me and resists putting on shoes. We leave the house without his shoes on and his feet are cold.

Someone recently praised a book called The Parent's Handbook: Systematic Training for Effective Parenting (STEP) . I don't know much about the book. I stay away from any books that recommend spanking or other punishments, as I'd like to focus on discipline. From the Amazon reviews, I don't think this book recommends spanking and seems to be in the realm of positive parenting. The person who recommended it said it had a Chrisitan foundation, but in the reviews I don't see any mention of this. I am interested in it.

I do give Evan choices and often rely on natural consequences. I feel like things have gotten so bad I need to regain some order even if it is more punitive than I would like. After that I think it will be easier to shift back to more choices and Evan having more control of the consequences. right now if I say "Evan, it's time to brush your teeth"
"no" running from me
"You can brush your teeth by yourself or I will have to do it"
"poo-poo" running away
After stopping him literally I make him hold my face (this is the only way he will focus and hear me-we are also dealing with auditory processing dysfunction) after he stops and makes eye contact I repeat myself and he replies "you are a potato" I returned with the tooth brush chase him then he finally decides he wants to do it on his own. It took me 1/2 hour to dress him. He flat out will not respond to choices and it is not because he doesn't understand what I am saying. I think I need to take over some of the decision making for him until he takes me more seriously. I always try to explain the why I am saying no to something. For him I need to quit explaining, it is not effective and that could be do to his trouble processing what is said. If I continue to have a reason for every time I say no I am leaving the situation open for a power struggle. I am working on just saying no, acknowledging his feelings and not giving in.
I am not sure when or where things went wrong, but Evan isn't doing well at all with choices. I am keeping it to 5 words or less so it will be clearer to him.
I am not sure how I feel about time outs. I don't yell or spank, time outs don't really effect him. If I were a child and upset about something and was put in a time out I think I would be very resentful and frustrated, so I will continue to encourage dialog about why. My mom didn't set boundaries or discipline us. She would yell out of anger, she didn't spank. I was well behaved, my sister was and is totally out of control. I always try to look at how it must feel to him. Right know it must feel insecure because there are not enough boundaries and he is lost and constantly changeling me.
I will read it the book and consider how it might effect him and our family as a whole. Something has got to change. I try to reserve time out for more severe things, like if it is a danger to himself or someone else. A few minutes ago he was outside the bedroom door where DH is sleeping yelling and being very very loud. I told him that wasn't OK, daddy needs sleep (dh worked the overnight shift) he continued, I physically took him to his room and he was still laughing and being loud. I told him to use a quite voice and he totally ignored me. I put him in a time out and sat next to him on the bed so he wouldn't get up and play. He started running and shouting again I stopped him, had him hold my face and asked if wanted to use a quite voice or wanted to go back and sit on his bed with me. He said quite voice. Then he yelled, back to the bed for a longer time out and the toy he was playing with was taken away. After the time out I did say daddy is very tired and needs to sleep, when you make loud noise he can't sleep and will be to tired to play with you after school. Which is true, he was so tired yesterday that after Evan was home they just plopped in front of cartoons with DH drifting to sleep. Not much fun for a 4 yo. Time to take him to school.
Thanks for the input!
Jen

Jen -

I hear the frustration in your posts. It sounds like you are struggling greatly. If you don't mind, I'd like to make some suggestions

Take back your authority. You (and DH) are in charge. You need to say what you mean and mean what you say. Make your no mean no. I am pretty strict with my kids - they are expected to do as I say without discussion. I don't explain, don't argue, don't negotiate. I'm the momma and I know best. I'm big for saying "end of discussion, further discussion will result in ..."

Now, I let my kids have choices - but not about obeying me. Especially my boys. I believe that God designed men to be leaders and the head of the home and that boys are eager to assume that role. My boys challenge my authority often if I don't stand firm and follow through with whatever consequence I've stated.

I think you're 5 words or less is great! I would begin to physically make my child follow through. For example, if you said come and they didn't come - I would go and pick them up and carry them wherever you asked them to go to. Or like the toothbrush example, I would have told him to brush and then with the first 'no' I would have taken him to the bathroom and brushed his teeth without any further asking or discussion. No need to be angry about it - just letting your child know that when you say to do something, it will get done. Dressing is the same, say "get dressed" and then at the first struggle then simply dress them.

I'm assuming that your child is under 5, older children respond better to the natural consequences, but I believe the younger ones have trouble with the cause and effect.

Once your child respects your authority, you will have less struggles. The key is consistancy - follow through, every time. If you say to do something, see that it's done.

Also, routine is good and most children will thrive on it. It sounds to me that you child is screaming for you to take control of him because he is not yet capable of controling himself. Knowing that you are in charge will help him be more secure and confident.

I hope this helps - I don't mean to offend.
Melinda

I do limited choices and Green/yellow/red lights.

Limited Choices: You can have eggs and bacon or pancakes for breakfast.

GREEN LIGHT: If you rock in that chair you will fall over
YELLOW LIGHT I don't like it when you rock in that chair/I wish you wouln't rock in that chair
RED LIGHTStop rocking in that chair now.

My oldest daughter is 11, she comes when I call her the FIRST time, she is very polite, funny, happy, compassionate, honest and brave. It's worked for us!!

This is a good book too:
Setting Limits : How to Raise Responsible, Independent Children by Providing Clear Boundaries (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0761512128/qid=1052513309/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-1731208-9673416?v=glance&s=books) I know Rob and he's great.

I have been told since Emily was 2 or 3 what a joy she is to have over. Even when she went camping with friends or on her school field trips, mothers and fathers have gone out of their way to pull me over and comment on her positive and cooperative nature. I don't know how much is my fault/responsibility, guess as parents we never do. But I have never hit, struck or spanked my child. I have never yelled at her.

JM two cents!

Thank for all the input!
And Melissa, I am not offended, you summed it up for me! They need to know that parents are authority figures. I take my children seriously, I want the same back. My children are 4 and 2. I want to do all this without having a negative environment were I am constantly on their case. I have been making a point to show even more affection and tell them how special they are, and comment when they do something like pick up their messes. I expect them to at least help, but I reinforce that I like that behavior.
It is not going to be easy at first but it is my job as their mother to set consistent boundaries and to teach them respect and self control. Or at least try!
thanks again,
Jen

I already posted this a while back in response to someone else's thread, but here's something that works for me when I'm consistent with it (which is HARD for me). I found it on another forum. Here it is......

"The Five Steps
by Crystal Lutton

The Five Steps are a technique developed by Lisa Kuzara-Seibold, Minister of Early Childhood Education at Word of Grace Church in Mesa, Arizona. I had the amazing opportunity to mentor under her while employed by the Department of Early Childhood Education as a Sunday School Teacher. This example of The Five Steps is an adaptation of what is taught in her training manual.

Step 1: State your request and offer a reason.

Example: "You need to stop yourself from playing and clean up. It is time to leave."

Step 2: Restate your request.

Example: "You need to stop yourself from playing and clean up."

It is helpful to get down on the child's level and touch your child while looking in his eyes to make sure you have his attention.

Step 3: Offer help.

Example: "You are having a hard time stopping your play. Can you stop playing and clean up or do you need my help?"

Whether your child requests help or not respect their wishes. Help is not a punishment, it is help.

Step 4: Help.

Example: "You are not stopping your play. Here, let me help you."

Again, help is not a punishment. It is an acknowledgment that your child is unable to stop on their own. This may be due to a lack of maturity, being tired or hungry, or simply not wanting to stop.

Step 5: The Bear Hug.

Stand behind your child and wrap your arms over her shoulders and across her chest. Hold her arms with your hands if you are concerned about her striking out. Squat down to her level and speak gently in her ear that you are helping her stop herself and that you will let her go when she can stop herself. Gentle pressure on her shoulders can keep her from kicking or attempting to run from you. This is not a punishment. It is providing outside boundaries for a child who lacks internal boundaries."
__________________________

Good luck with your son. I just take it one day at a time at this point. It's getting better because we don't even have to use all 5 steps most times!

Jen,
Thank you for posting this thread. I am having very similar problems with Connor (2yr 9mo) and I have been losing my temper much more with him than I should. It doesn't help either of us that there is a new baby in the house that has reflux and cries a lot and needs my attention. Connor's big thing is just not listening... and running away from us playing keep away. It is obvious by his laughing that he thinks it is a game. Offering choices? He doesn't understand either/or, he just answers yes (or no) to both choices. There is more as well but I don't have time to write a book. He sounds very much like Evan and it is like DH and I have lost all parental control.... by that I mean that Connor runs the house.

I have tried writing about this several times before in the guidance board but there are too many interuptions and I have lost my loooonnggg post 2 times now! Arg!

Karen, I really like Crystal Lutton's book -- Grace Based Parenting. It is very on target with how I feel about parenting.

My kids always have choices. We all do. I give them easy choices that make no difference to me -- and they learn the pros and cons of making such choices.

On more serious issues, my children make their choices and learn the negative consequences. Choices are not without consequences. I do not always think the consequence should be a time-out. As I said before, I haven't read 123 Magic but it seemed (from watching my friend use the techniques from this book) that time-outs were the main consequence. However, I do think if you have a child or children out of control, that changes need to be made. If 123 Magic gives you some tools to help, then I do think it would be good to browse or read it. I also think there are a lot of other sources to help.

Melinda, I believe your children DO have a choice whether or not to obey you -- but I think if they choose not to obey you there is some type of consequence to that choice.

There are ways I choose not to even let my kids make choices. This pertains more to my youngest who just turned two. As she gets older, she will be able to make more choices, but right now I limit her environment so that she doesn't have to choose between obeying me or doing what she wants. I'm not going to let her play with a light socket but will childproof such things so that she doesn't have to learn a life threatening consequence.

I try to remember that making mistakes gives children a chance to learn and grow. If I could program my son to always obey me, I would not...even though that would be easier. I want him to learn so that as he gets older he can make wise choices. Since my son is only three, I can limit his choices and generally control the consequences. I feel that if I use punishment and take away all of his autonomy (sp), then I am doing him a great dis-service. When he is 15 years old and someone is offering him drugs, he needs to be able to make choices without me. I am hoping our values and discipline enable him to make the right choices.

My son, as well as many children that I know and have worked with (was a social worker), goes through phases. When it is a difficult phase, I try to stop and examine the situation. Part of his behavior might be attributed to discipline where I need to make changes, but there are often other factors: diet, sleep, environmental changes, family changes, etc. Jen, I would encourage you to get some ideas for how to handle discipline, but also encourage you to look at some of the other factors that contribute toward family dynamics...and just be careful about going too far the other direction.

A lot of my personal opinions are based on my faith -- and from how I interpret the Bible (kind of hesitant to say that because I've seen so many things done based on "The Bible"). I believe God gave us a choice. I believe everyday we have the choice whether or not to follow God. We often face the consequences of not doing so, but *for me* I often am blessed by God's tremendous grace for me. Whether or not you are Christian, you can find a wonderful example of parenting by that model. Of cours, God is a lot wiser than I am!

~Rondi~

PS. Just a few weeks ago I posted about what a difficult stage my son was going through. I really know how discouraging it can be. Funny though that I'm often told that my son is easy going or good to have in Sunday School class. My son!?

I read some of it, and the only thing I'd watch for is too long of time outs. They seemed to recommend long ones for children way too young for them. I believe most believe 1 min. for each year of the childs age is enough and long enough for those under 5-6 years.....I could never imagine my 4 year old being in a 10 min. time out.....he'd get frustrated and aggravated and my point/the message would be lost. I could see that spiralling into something messy. And remember, there are hundreds of discipline books out there cause different kids respond to different methods better. It's dependent on how they are, their temperment, what works with them, what you are ok with, what you can be consistent with.....so on. The experts are only experts cause they found something that worked for their child......does not mean it will for yours. *But*, I do think some kids respond well to time outs, when used within reason, and limited ones....I see some used over and over, way too many, and way too long. It gets burnt out and causes more aggravation and the whole "lesson" is lost, imo. I really like natural consequences, and find when I am consistent with those, I need nothing else. Also, since you have not had a discipline plan or method in order, make sure you go slow.....too fast and he may wonder why, be too much on and for him, etc. Ease into it.......(o:

Originally posted by pinkmommy

Melinda, I believe your children DO have a choice whether or not to obey you -- but I think if they choose not to obey you there is some type of consequence to that choice.

~Rondi~


Well - yes, my children can choose not to obey me (and they do periodically ;) ) and yes, there are consequences to it. When they were little, I would take them by the hand and have them do what I said.

But - what I ment was that I don't give choices in the instructions that I give. I don't ever say "do you want to clean up now or in 5 minutes" type of instruction. I do give warnings "in 5 minutes it'll be clean up time" but when I say clean up, I mean do it and do it now.

Mostly, I don't give these choices because my oldest can't handle it (my others are fairly compliant, so it doesn't matter as much). If he has the impression that it is open to discussion, he will argue till the cows come home! Given 2 choices, he will always offer a 3rd. Now, this is fine negotiating skills and we use it in areas of life that he really does have control over - "what book should we start next Treasure Island or Dr. Dolittle" "I'd like to read The Wright Brothers" "Okay" that type of stuff. He's got the makings of a fine trial lawyer LOL

Time outs are also very hard for him, so I only use them when we need extreme punishment. He will battle them so fiercly, that I prefer other methods of consequence and reserve them for times when he is unfit to be near the rest of the family.

One of the biggest things that works with him is to practice good behavior and role play it. We started this at about 3 I guess (he was very verbal early, so it worked really well). For example, I want him to knock before entering my bedroom. He barges in, I send him back to do it over the right way (if it was the first couple of times, I explain my expectations first - after that, I just say "go back and do it the right way"). I might have him practice it a few times just to be sure he gets it. (after all, he didn't knock because he didn't want to take the time and now he's learned that right behavior is quicker in the long run).

A couple of weeks ago, we were having struggles over chores not being done. They were too boring - so we practiced them. He was to feed the chickens and so I had him practice getting the feed, opening & closing the cage and returning the bucket to the tack barn. We ran through this about 10 times till I was sure that he was good and bored! Afterward, he decided that it would just be easier to do it the first time!

We also role play appropriate responses in social situations since he has poor social skills. This works really well because it gives him the words to express himself (for such a verbal kid, it is surprising he needs this).

But I firmly believe that the foundation was set in the early years (1 - 3) in that if mommy gave a command, it was followed willingly, or mommy would physically walk you through it. Once the realization set in that it would get done regardless, cooperation seemed like an easier method.

With my oldest, we have lots of struggles. He is a 'strong willed' child and constantly challenges my authority. I couldn't parent him without DH. DH daily reinforces my authority and will tolerate no disrespect from him towards me.

He is also a child that if not kept busy with chores or projects, will get into mischief. Often, he will misbehave out of boredom and then I will give him a chore - mucking out the calf's stall is a good one! He also needs structure and lots of sleep and good nutrition to keep himself in control.

I try very hard to get creative with discipline - it's a real struggle for me not to lose my cool and yell.

I hope some of these techniques help you. I've read lots of books, but they were written for someone else's kid. I've had to find my own path with my kid ;)
Melinda