So, here is the issue. I have been approached by a fellow church member about joining this parenting class, Growing Kids God's Way. I have read all I can find on the net. I know almost 101 reasons why I will NOT be involved in it. I do not feel that Ezzo's take on parenthood is Biblical, but to be honest some of what I have read almost sounds cult-ish to me. Anyone actually take this class or read the book themselves. Obviously if we are AP atleast most of us would disagree with a lot of his views, but I am really interested in what fellow Christians feel about it. I am torn because, unaware, I was telling a good friend from another town/ different church about it only to find out that she was one of the other 5 couples to be in the group. Now my stomach is in knots. Any firsthand info with this course or organization.

I don't feel Ezzo is Biblically based. The funny thing is, I was just had this conversation with another person last night. She is a therapist -- specializing in Christian counseling. She does not feel Ezzo lines up with Christian principles and fought it when someone tried to bring the program to her church. Her church will not teach Ezzo's ideas. She has done extensive research about Ezzo and has found many disturbing things -- she thinks it is not only NOT Christian but also harmful. I also remember reading some things that indicated Ezzo had some struggles within his own church. Everyone (that I've talked to) at my church embraces Ezzo and/or some of Ezzo-type ideas. It is the biggest problem I have with my church. I don't have much time right now or I'd find some links that discuss why Ezzo's ideas are not Chrisitan. I am sorry if anyone who is reading this disagrees -- but that is my opinion and the opinion of many others. I am surrounded by people who buy into Ezzo -- my church and my family. It makes me sad that people don't take a closer look at Scripture.

http://ccli.org/parenting/strict.shtml

http://ccli.org/parenting/raisefam.shtml

This addresses it from a Christian point of view, and are very well written and enlightening, IMO.

www.ezzo.info

There is a little booklet on there about the Christian perspective and ezzo...I have to run our I'd give you a direct link. I DO NOT consider Ezzo's philosophy Christian in the slightest and that site has tons of references to scripture!


EDITED to add link
http://www.ezzo.info/Lewis/index.htm

Good luck mama!

J

wow, I'm surprised your pastor would have his classes at your church still. 2 years ago(if I remember right) after being dis-fellowshipped from his 3rd or 4th church, he was deemed unsuitable for Christian leadership based on his practice of unaccounability to a church organization, outright fraud regarding his education, and the advice /information given in his books, and sowing discord amoungst various church leaders by lying and slandering them. Christianity Today has written articles that goes into the cult aspect/following of the Ezzos. Any kind of baby care you want to learn about can be learned elsewhere, and that's what I would do.

I would run far far away. I would go so far as to say, I would find a new church. We did. Actually, same church different campus. 2 years after my first son was born, after a few years of GKGW at our church, our head pastor stood at a pastor's conference and apologized and asked forgiviness for introducing this program to members of our church. His wife told women at the Women's Bible study to not throw the books away, but rather burn them so noone would get a hold of it.

I also was approached by a good "friend" at church a couple of years ago about taking this class. I politely declined for similar reasons to what you're saying. Though I didn't realize till just now that Ezzo was the author of that book (I knew he had other "Christian" parenting books). My friend just wasn't ok with me not getting on board and using the techniques "God's way." She had a real problem with our co-sleeping, extended bf'ing, slinging, even cloth diapering! (That was looked on as unsanitary).We argued several times about these, always with her trying to convince me that I was doing the WRONG thing for my baby. Others in the church made comments as well, and eventually I didn't feel comfortable staying and we stopped attending church there. I just felt like a fish out of water there. Oh, and this friend of mine stopped speaking to me several weeks before we left the church. Very painful and uncomfortable.

I guess my point is, if I were you, I wouldn't give up my convictions. It strikes me as a little dictator-ish, a little Nazi-ish for others to force their views on you with something so personal as parenting decisions (or for any issue for that matter.) It's not as if you are a Satanist or something! The pressure can be intense, so don't feel alone. I know other mamas have been through this too. If you decide to switch churches, I know there are several others that are more AP friendly. I have heard that the Vineyard churches are this way. We've been meaning to go check out one in our area.

Hope this helps, let us know if you need more support. And this reply was in no way meant to offend other Christian mamas. -Laura

Before we were married, Dh's boss (and minister who married us) was telling Dh about this. Dh was all excited about it, as was I since it was something Christian and Dh is not. We visited the minister's family as a sort of pre-marriage counseling thing. Let me tell you, the 4 most well-behaved loveable kids I've ever met. They were like age 2 to 10. I was so wanting to do this program with our children.

Then we found AP, and after finding AP found out about Ezzo. :confused: I'm still baffled as to how these people that we know could do that program (teach it even) and have the most wonderful kids ever.

Yea, but *why* are those kids so well behaved? Taught by fear and "methods"? Shame, etc. Or behaving because they care about themselves and other people, because they want to be "nice", etc. I know a lady here who Ezzo's, and she does not "allow" her kids to have "tantrums"....And no, not the "I want it!" screaming in the store kind...LOL. But the crying, overtired, pushed past their time and age kind.....they are punished for daring to show those emotions in public or in front of anyone....it's really sad. Her kids hold everything in, and it worries me. I watch them play at preschool, and they are well behaved, but there's something about them that worries me. )o:

I just wanted to chime in because something you said struck me so deeply. I've never realized it before, but you just hit on exactly why I am who I am. As a child, I was punished (harshly I might add) for crying and it didn't matter why. I remember getting a very bad spanking for crying when I fell and gashed my knee open. I was not allowed to show any emotion other than happiness. As I grew, I had a very hard time with my emotions. I have an explosive tempter that I've had to work amazingly hard to overcome (and still have a long way to go). At my own mother's funeral I couldnt cry..and I never really knew why until now. As a child, I was taught that any kind of sadness or upset resulted in spankings and verbal abuse. I really feel for those children who arent allowed to show emotions...its a hard road to over come. This has really made me realize why I dont want Lauren to behave because of threats and fear....wow


Thank you for helping me come to an important realization! Now back to the thread at hand:)

J

Oh Jamie, I am so sorry. )o: But it is true, for these kids too.....I watch them get hurt, say banging heads with another child, and they will both be sore and hurting, and the one will "suck it up" super fast, not even wanting to cry, holding back tears saying "I am ok, I am ok".....it's really sad. You want to scream no, you are NOT ok, it's OK to cry and show pain! )o: Same thing for when we went on a field trip.....none of the kids wanted to leave, and at age 4, they do cry and show sadness at having to leave, totally normal......their Mom would look at them with this weird glaring look, and they'd stop showing whatever emotion it was they were showing...like looking sad about leaving, laughing hard and silly over something, etc. It's just weird. They always look at adults when doing things too....as if they wonder if they are "supposed" to be doing it, is it ok to roll around like this, etc. And the Mom is always nice to the parents, really sweet, acts normal with us/them. )o:

It's very sad and hard to realize how childhood things like that/this affect us as adults, and how in some people it continues, and the cycle is perpetuated, and how in others it is the total opposite, and their past pain or hurt or anger makes them the total opposite of how they were treated/raised/parented. I do think realizing it, and as hard as it is, looking into it inside yourself, is really important.....it was/is for me in my own mothering and self. (o: ((HUGS))

Thanks all. I have found tons of links. Articles that sadden me and scare me about this man and his beliefs. Maybe it shouldn't but this is really bothering me. I'm stuck with this feeling that I should do something, but what? DH says when this women asks again to just tell her he said "No". Oh, she will ask again too. She is very persistent. Then I could say that if he says no I must submit to that. He is saying no, but part of me really wants to tell her every last issue I have with the whole program. Part of me really wants to show up at the pastor's office and present him with the issues I have with this. That would be the mommy part of me that wants to defend her children & everyone else's. But, I have not read the book myself and do not have near the Biblical training of this couple who teach it or the pastor. I'm sure in their eyes I would be just some radically-misguided-following worldly-advice-passive-not fit for parenting mommy. I'll look like a looney-toon I am sure. The "reason" she approached me is that we have a son with some special needs that we are in the process of diagnosing. He does have some behavioral issues. He also has delays in speech, fine & gross motor skills & sensory issues. She has not said so, but I think that she feels we are to blame. That we are inconsistent and too passive with him & we created his problems. From what I have read this is the attitude of the GKGW course and that in the 3rd edition they said like 95% of ADD/ADHD children were caused by permissive parenting. Again, this is from 2 seperate web sites & not something I read in the book as I have not actually read the book. That will be an issue I am sure if I tell any of these people me feeling about this thing. Now I fear that my dearest friend will join this group. She is the one person that besides dh that has been real supportive in the search for a dx for ds. If she joins this group there is a strong chance that I will lose her support & friendship. I just can't shake the sadness..... Thanks all. I don't know what to do. I'll pray hard I guess and wait to see how it all unfolds.

Blech! Have you seen www.aolff.org ? She has a book I've been wanting, but can't cough up the $18 for, LOL. Also, there's a yahoo group, called Positive Christian AP (I think).
And you can get a ton of info from the ladies at www.gentlemothering.com

HTH!

Renee, Thanks! Off to check it out!

info I could find online and give it to the pastor. I would also tell your friend. The fact that several churches have dumped the guy and I think even the American Academy of Pediatrics came out against him because he is not a Dr. and does give medical advice on kids. And havent a couple Ezzoed babies died from dehydration from being on such a rigid feeding schedule? This guy thinks that from birth childrens only goal is to MANIPULATE parents. A crying newborn is MANIPULATING you - barf, gag, what a sicko!!!! I really think he is bad news and I would print off the most balanced convincing article against him I could find and disseminate it freely amongst the people who mentioned it to you and then I would also look for another church. Just my .02

I'm mean really think about it! Was Christ parented this way? No way! Is this how he would want to see children treated? Not likely!

It just boggles the mind:confused:

My MIL's church was doing this and she really pressured dh and I to follow the methods. She gave me a book and I never read it. I did not even realize that Ezzo was also GKGW. If I had I would have thrown a fit. i am stubborn and do not have a good relationship with my MIL. When ever she suggests I do something I become peevish and childish and do the opposite. I wonder though if she really thought the method was good or if she didn't have a clue what it was about. I don't think she would actually agree with putting a newborn on a feeding sced. but who knows? Anyway, I lost the book and I am glad I did. I will be on the lookout for anyone in my church talking about it as well.

Real quick question since everyone here seems to have a christian perspective and an understanding of Ezzo. Are the "Pearl's" teaching the same thing as Ezzo? I haven't read either but have been pressured by other CHristians I know to parent according to the PEarl's books. I skimmed the book she gave me and I didn't care for any of it and threw it away. Are the PEarl's and Ezzo teaching the same thing?

The AAP has made statements about Ezzo as has the Christian Research Institute . There have been articles against him in World Magazine, Christianity Today and Christian Research Journal. The Co-Founders of the program have spoken out against it as have John MacArthur and the church that these programs originated at. Here are a list of the links I emailed to my friend in case anyone else needs them. I am sure that they have all been posted before, but just in case. My fear is that the pastor will say that this is just propaganda(sp) or that well we aren't teaching the first segment in the series Prep. to Parenthood(?) So it isn't that bad. To me, even if there were NO issues with GKGW the fact that it is written by the same individuals as first is enough of an issue. I guess I had better start printing.

Christianity Today Article- Unprepared to Teach Parenting?
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/013/6.70.html

John MacArthur’s 9-14-2000 statement approved of by Grace's board of elders.

http://www.ezzo.info/GCC/macarthur.htm

Independent Article: Growing Kids Is It God’s Way?

http://www.fix.net/~rprewett/lisa.pdf

Christianity Today Article

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/8t2/8t2096.html

Christianity Today Article RE: Preparation for Parenting

http://www.ezzo.info/Articles/brave.htm

GFI vs. AAP Comparison Chart

http://www.ezzo.info/Aney/gfiaapcompchartanalysis.pdf

World Magazine Article

http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/05-25-96/national_4.asp

The Co-Founders of Growing Families International

http://www.abelhome.com/GFI.htm

Christian Research Journal Article

http://www.ezzo.info/Aney/crjparttwo.pdf

Christian Research Institute Article- MORE THAN A PARENTING MINISTRY:
The Cultic Characteristics of Growing Families International

http://www.equip.org/free/DG233.htm

I took Growing Kids God's Way when Melissa was a baby. It is for preschool and up (It's the babywise that talks about babies and that I have not read - but heard it's pretty bad). I don't remember Growing Kids God's way to be that bad - lots of natural consequences and talking to kids before you go into the situation about what to expect - practicing introducing people , saying your name, manners- that's about all I remember. I do remember thinking that none of it was really relevant to my child at the time. Our class ended up just talking alot of the time though and we all brought food and had neat snacks - there were about 4 of us with nursing babies there.

Pearls are much worse IMO - someone gave me there book and it talks about things like spanking babies when they cry when you put them down - much bigger emphasis on corporol punishment than Ezzo's from what I remember. (But I haven't read any of the Babywise books, so I don't know really if Ezzo's promote that also). The one good thing I took from the Pearl's book is to pay attention to the baby when they aren't being fussy. (but they also subscribe to ignoring your child when they are crying). I found that since my 1st baby was colicky and held pretty much 24/7 - when I had my 2nd baby - I had the tendency to only pick him up when when he fussed or requested attention. So that was a good thing - I just figured if he wants me, he'll cry or something. There's probably better sources out there to find that out (that was before I found this site - for example)

Yes, the AAP has issued many warnings against Ezzo because of babies being hospitalized and yes, even death, from rigid feeding schedules, stress, dehydration.....And BabyWise also believes it is "ok" to use a wooden spoon and etc. to "smack" the hands of infants 4-6 months and up.......)o: I remember reading about the Pearls, and their "blanket" time, and how "Ezzo" it seemed and was...how both Ezzo and them recommended placing babies on a blanket for "blanket time" and if the baby moved off or crawled off the blanket, to smack them, or their hands if their hands "left" the blanket......I was shocked. :confused:

I just wanted to respond to the idea that some children raised on Ezzo are well behaved. Like Denise pointed out, at what price? What I wanted to add is that it is not true for all children. My brother took the Ezzo courses at his church and bought into them, as well as uses spanking liberally. My nephew and niece are spanked quite a bit and my brother really feels it works. He bragged to my DH about several times when he spanked my nephew (and described they were good, hard spankings). Anyway, I would not say my nephew and niece are better behaved for it. Indeed, my nephew has been expelled from daycare due to hitting/throwing. He frequently gets in trouble at church nursery for hitting and other physical behavior (hmmmm...wonder where he learns it from). He tries to get away with whatever he can -- tries to secretly hit, grab, etc. I see little remorse in him when he does something wrong. He seems to get angry when my brother punishes him. In NO WAY is my DS perfect (REALLY!), but there is big difference. DS really feels bad when he hurts another child (usually his sister -- but not all that often). Usually if DS does something wrong, he tells me (he tattles on himself). We rarely have issues with DS hitting or being aggresive to another child (knock on wood!). So yes, while I've seen some kids that have responded to Ezzo-ism by being very good, I've seen other children (not just my nephew) who actually seem to have behavioral problems because of it.

These might have already been listed, but here's a few more:

Research study:
http://www.equip.org/free/DG233.htm

Articles from Christianity Today:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/112/54.0.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/013/6.70.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/143/54.0.html

Anti-Ezzo site:
http://www.ezzo.info/babywise.htm

Pros and Cons:
http://hhd.csun.edu/plunk/notes/fes436internet.html


As a Christian, I believe Satan is using the Ezzos big-time to mess up our families, our children's lives, and turn them against God. I think they're horrible. I would definitely print out all the info you can and give it to the church. If they aren't willing to cancel the class, I would find a different church that will be more supportive and not pressure you to be an abusive parent (YES, I think Ezzo parenting IS abuse and neglect...I'm sorry if that offends anyone). I have not read GKGW, but I have read Babywise and it was horrible enough (I've heard GKGW is much worse).

HTH

but the Ezzo debate board at parents place is an amazing wealth of knowlege as well. Several women on there babywised their kids and are now dealing with the consequences (kids with detachment syndrome...I can't think of exactly what its called). I was given a copy of babywise when I was pregnant. I read it and DH and I were very interested and planned to do it. Then after Lauren was born I got on the net one night (remember those NO SLEEP nights lol) and found the ezzo debate board. I sobbed as I read the first hand accounts of mothers whose kids wouldnt let them hug and kiss them....and those that nearly died from dehydration. I knew that was God's plan for me to read and see the damage and learn from it.


j

I LOVE LOVE LOVE Crystal's website (www.aolff.org) and appreciate her yahoogroup beyond words.

People talk down to their children so much, it sickens me. They yell, and, I believe yelling to cause the same psychological damage as spanking or hitting. Yelling is "hitting" someone with your words.

I believe parents don't recharge their batteries and this leads to frustration and feelings of being overwhelmed. I also believe parenting to be hardest job in the world, and we don't support each other enough in day to day craziness.

So I guess the point I am getting at is if you are feeling overwhelmed with parenting, reach out. Make friendships (like here), discuss things and NEVER stop learning.

Just my little PSA of the day... :)

BTW, I am *not* saying I do not feel overwhelmed or frustrated. I am trying to share my experiences and what has helped me to feel like I can parent better.

Ezzo and the Pearls are very damaging for children. RUN from any teachings.

I think we all have our horror stories from when we were growing up. I don't know about you, but that is my fuel for *not* doing the same things my parents did to me.

See, I think she (this lady from church) assumes that if ds has develop. problems and can be challenging at times that it is because I don't parent by the Book. I guess that I just feel that the Bible urges us to train a child taking into consideration(sp) the individual personality and health/ develop. issues. We choose our battles w/ ds. Some things are just not that important in the big scheme of things but what I get from her is that children should be small adults hopping to each order at lightening speed & never questioning or thinking about it. We are Christians. I have plenty of dreams & hopes for ds but most of all I want him to be Christian as well. I want him to share our faith, but I want it to come from his heart not be something he has had pounded into his head. The same goes for obedience. I want him to obey because he is convicted in his heart if he doesn't not because mommy may be watching. I won't always be with him. I just think there has to be a better way of getting children to that point than the Ezzo plan. Sorry, my soap box of the day... Nice to see that others do feel sort of the same way.

the babywise book was reccomended to me by a friend when I got pregnant. DH and I went to look for it at a book store one day and we couldn't find it (God's divine intervention).

Well, I didn't think about it for awhile, DD was born and I joined a mommy and me class. The class was totally AP (totally opposite of what I was raised), I loved the class, the people there. The leader talked about attatchment parenting all the time, so I sought out information for myself.

Just a side note, we had been co-sleeping and such from day one. We had planned on spanking (didn't have a specified age though) All of our family spanks, we never considered not spanking

Anyway, we read more about AP and decided that was the way to raise well balanced children. Well, I decided that I can't be *against* something I know very little about. So I decided to read "On Becoming Babywise":mad: :mad: That book is just evil!

It's quick reading, well worth it to find out what exactly it teaches. DH read it too...we are so disgusted!!!

I worry about all the babies out there who are being abused because people think they're doing "God's Will" by raising their children this way. It makes me so sick.