I am so sad. I'm at a loss. And I don't know what to do.

Most of you know, we have Nico here on the weekends. She is 4 1/2, and has always been extremely compassionate, empathetic and caring.

But in the last 5-6 weeks, her behavior has changed SO much!! We thought, originally, that the hub-bub of the holidays was too much for her, but the behavior is continuing.

She has been hurting Kaya, and even our friend's son, Emmett, who is 3. We've had one (or more) instance every week since the week before Christmas.

First, she squeezed Kaya's hand, and dug in with her nails ~ so hard that it left marks. She said it was because Kaya tried to take something away from her.

The next week, she slapped Kaya on the head while I was down stocking the woodstove. She had no reason other than "I don't know"

The week after that, she punched Emmett in the back when she "thought we was going to eat all of the carrots and peanut butter" even though there was A LOT left on the plate.

Last weekend, she bit kaya's finger, leaving tooth marks that stayed there for 24 hours. She said it was because Kaya looked like she was going to shove her.

Last night, as we were making doll furniture out of egg cartons, I went downstairs for a piece of wood for the table top and I hear Kaya scream. Nico had hit her two times on the head with a artists paint brush. She left two HUGE lumps on her head that are now bruises. Her reason was "I don't know"

I am at my wits end. I don't know how to dicipline her. It only seems to happen when J is not here (except for when she punched Emmett) and her reasons don't make sense. Not that there's a reason to hurt someone, but you know.

I am at the point where I don't want to leave Kaya in the same room with Nico. Now, 98% of the time, they are sweet and lovey to each other. Nico seems to adore Kaya. And then, all of a sudden, she lashes out. I don't understand. And it makes me sad because I feel *SO* angry with Nico after I see the welts or marks she's left on her. I know I am an adult, but it very hard for me to forgive her when I hear Kaya cry in pain.

:(

I don't know what to do.... Really. J has brought up the punishment that we both got as kids if we did something like that... But... :sigh:

I am in tears over this. I don't even know where to begin.

Please, I need some advice.

I wanted to add that I don't think it is an attention thing, either. Nico and I do crafts, worksheets and activities all day long. She gets more of my attention that Kaya does, it seems.

i am not sure meeshi. but you need to do something & nico has to learn that her behavior is unacceptable... maybe less crafts, etc...for a day or two?

and i know she isn't much help to you, but i'd certainly be talking to nico's mom about this as well.


hugs & i hope it is jsut a phase for her...

griffen is almost 4 1/2 & gets frustrated w/ willa & tries to block her or horde toys from her, but has never hit her.


take care ~

Yes, but I'm sure, in Nico's eyes, Kaya gets to "keep" you all week. I don't have any suggestions, but I can really feel for all of you. I hope others have some good ideas.
Hana

anger direction? As in, using her words to say I am angry, perhaps punching a pillow? She must be seeing this somewhere, ya know? Perhaps talking to mommy may figure this out? Perhaps she's seeing this on TV?

I don't know what to tell you.

But e-mail or PM Amy aka Dancing~Giraffe or post to the gentle discipline board.

((HUGS))

Maybe she's jealous because Kaya is with J everyday, whereas she only gets to see him on the weekends?
Maybe she's lashing out at Kaya because she thinks that Kaya has taken her Daddy away?
Just guessing....

Well, the good that has come of this, is that we have been having a better relationship with Nico's bio-mom since this happened. Actually, a week after the holidays, Ananda was putting Nico in time out when Nico grabbed her face and squeezed in anger. It left several big scratches on Ananda's face, and Ananda did end up giving her the punishment that J has brought up.

We all got together two weeks ago and had a discussion with Nico that this is NOT acceptable. We decided that, for now, if she intentionally hurts anyone, she will go into time out for the rest of the night except for meals and bathroom. But she is able to get up for 10 minutes every hour to expend energy. Time out, for her, is sitting in her desk chair facing the wall. I know it sounds harsh, but this is the best thing we could come up with that would let her know that we have a "No tolerance" stance on that sort of thing.

i know i'm the last person that should be giving advice on this kind of thing but....

nico may be getting closer to you and feeling like she wants your attention more than her own mother. her behavior is very typical of sibling rivalry. though you say you give her loads of attention to her it still may not be enough. the book "siblings without rivalry" is a great one. though they are not true sisters they are still siblings and will go through some of the same stages. a lot of older siblings will go as far as saying they want the younger one dead when at the same time they do not want them gone. talk to her about her feelings about kaya even if they sound harsh let her talk and try to understand. also, kaya just started walking which is a new thing. older siblings go through some rough stages when the baby starts to crawl and then starts to walk.


or.... something may be going on w/ her mother. does her mother spank at all? that will lead to aggression. does her mother have a new boyfriend?

we were posting at the same time....

I agree Meeshi, she *needs* the discipline, or else she will continue to do it if there are no consequences to her actions. A chiild who is not disciplined and given borders, limits, is one that will have problems later on. These limits that parents provide make a child feel secure and kind of "save them from themselves," if you know what I mean. Kids need to know that they aren't the ones in charge.

Our daughter has been doing the same thing to Louis recently, (although she hasn't actually hurt him yet, but has made the attempt, ie. shoving him, slapping his hand) and she does it at her dad's house too, to her stepmom and brother over there. She has to stand in the corner facing the wall for 30 minutes. If she looks around, starts fidgeting, what have you, she gets another 10 mins. for each incident. When she comes out of time-out, June is usually very affectionate, sweet and apologetic. Go figure! I figure it's best to lay down the law now so that when she's a teenager, hopefully things won't be so tough (yeah right!).

That is a really really really long time out for a 4 year old to sit in time out. I know hitting isn't appropriate behavior, but some aggression between siblings is normal behavior. I would worry that such an extreme punishment would backfire and make her more resentful of Kaya. In all honestly, I would worry about damaging her self esteem.

When Ara (who is four) hits Simone, I ask her to go sit on the couch until she feels that she can control her behavior and not hurt anyone. I tell her it is my responsibility to keep everyone safe and I cannot do that if she hits. Sometimes she sits for 10 seconds, sometimes she stays for a few minutes. It is always her choice - I don't want to take away her control and make her feel more powerless, I want to empower her. I don't think punishment/discipline should make them feel powerless to make changes. Anyway, when she rejoins us, I always say that I am glad she is back and ready to play with us.

Ara is very impulsive and can be pretty aggressive. Doing this consistently (after trying some other methods) has worked for her. I find she needs time to chill out and collect herself.

Allison, I do agree that it is a long time. She has only had the "time out till early bedtime" punishment two times. The first time, she went in at 6:00, had a half hour out for dinner and was in bed by 7:30. Last night, the incident happened around five, she had about a half hour for dinner, a ten minute play time and in bed by 7.

I know that some aggression is normal, but this is going beyond the shoving etc that I suspect is somewhat normal. The bite to the finger was pretty bad and the welts she got from the paintbrush (long wooden handle and metal part holding on the bristles) were downright scary. J and I both fear that the next attack could land Kaya in the ER, you know?

Like I said, we just don't know what to do to stop this. We've talked about ways to let go of anger without hurting, like hitting a drum or pillow. We've let her know that if she ever gets sick of Kaya, she can either play in the playroom or her bedroom alone (I will take Kaya aside), which she loves. We tried putting her in time out until she felt calm and ready to join the family, and when she came out, it wasn't a half hour before she hurt her again.

And the agression goes beyond Kaya, though it seems like she's just the easy target. She has gone after our friends child and her own mother as well...

Julia, yes, Ananda did spank her the time Nico grabbed her by the face and scratched. It was her first one ever.

:sigh: I don't want to take away Nico's control and make her feel powerless, but I want her to know that if she hurts someone, she will not just be forgiven in 5 or 15 seconds. I feel like she has to take responsibility and own up to the actions she makes.

I hate this. :(

nak, so forgive me for keeping this short

since it seems to happen when J isn't around, do you think she's testing some sort of limit with you as a parental/authority figure? maybe she's jealous that you and kaya get to be with J all week and she doesn't?

i'm so not an expert on this, lol, so take it with a grain of salt. ;)

Originally posted by )O(Meeshi)O(


:sigh: I don't want to take away Nico's control and make her feel powerless, but I want her to know that if she hurts someone, she will not just be forgiven in 5 or 15 seconds. I feel like she has to take responsibility and own up to the actions she makes.

I hate this. :( [/B]

Meeshi, I don't think it's about making the child feel powerless, it's about showing them that when you invade the personal space of another human being, and harm them physically, there WILL be consequences. I think that a child of 4 may not know why or wherefore they are being punished, but they are learning that for every action there is a reaction, cause/effect. FWIW, June is 7yo, so when she's in time out, I think she's actually starting to understand that it's not just cause/effect, but that she's there b/c she violated someone else's body/space, etc. Also, when she comes out of time out we always discuss WHY she was put there, and why we felt it necessary to do so. Our speech usually ends something like this: "We love you very much and we don't want you to hurt other people, b/c you're a great kid, etc. etc." All punishment ends on a positive note.

p.s. We NEVER spank or physically harm her.

aww Meeshi, no advice here as I've not had to deal with siblings yet but maybe Nico is sad or upset that Kaya gets to stay there all the time and she doesn't? That wouldn't explain the situation with Emmet though... I hope you find a way to resolve this soon.

*edited to add* I just read the other replies and realized everyone else suggested the same thing lol :)

Tammy

May I make a suggestion?

I think that in some deeper sense, Nico feels pretty powerless. And I think that she is very likely having some conflicted feelings about being a "big girl" when possibly what she really needs is more "little kid" nurturing. She might have missed some essential nurturing when she was very small.

What "time-out" in this case most likely will accomplish is a feeling of rejection in Nico, and resentment. She probably already feels a bit excluded from her daddy's life because she only gets weekends. But this is NO excuse for her behavior.

One technique that we have used with some of our foster children is called:"Time In" This is a very labor intensive technique for the parents but well worth it in the long run.

Example:

Nico hurts Kaya. You express your disapproval, and set Nico down on a chair in the room where you are. You comfort Kaya.

You explain to Nico, preferably with J. there also, that you have seen that she cannot be trusted alone with Kaya or any smaller child at this time. Tell her that you think that she might have some sad feelings inside and that is why she hurts the baby, but that you want her to talk to you about what is bugging her, rather than deal with her continued hitting.

But anyway, you then explain to her that Nico will have to spend the rest of the weekend in "time In". In other words, wherever you go, she goes. She is allowed to play quietly wherever you are. She follows you from room to room. (yes, this is very hard on the mama!but mom and dad can switch off. ) You tell Nico that she has to stay with an adult and follow them along so she can watch *how* to act nicely to others. And because you love her so much and you would miss her if she was in her room for a long time, you will keep her with you but she has no priviliges like playing in the yard or in another room. You will have to *help* her not hurt others, until she can show you that she is ready to control her hitting(next weekend give her short intervals to "practice" this and earn your trust).

Now during this Time In, I would recommend some bonding activities to help facilitate positive feelings in her that will overflow in her interaction with Kaya. Make lots of eye contact, and here and there when she looks at you, pop something sweet in her mouth. Doesn't have to be candy, as long as it is something she likes. The theory is that breastmilk is sweet, and that combined with eye contact in newborns creates pathways in the brain that create the bonding cycle. By making eye contact with her while putting something sweet in her mouth (don't let her do it herself!) you are simulating the attachment cycle. Also important is rocking and touch.

I know this is not an easy solution, but it may adress a more complete spectrum of "issues" while adressing her hurting other children.

Soryy for the epic lenght!!!

Meeshi, I know how powerless you feel to stop Nico's behavior. I do have to agree with others who have said that the long time-out is overly harsh for a 4 yo and likely to lead to more resentment and problems in the long run, and also possibly damage to self-esteem. That does not mean you tolerate the behavior, either.

I dealt with this when Jacob was tiny. Katie had just turned two and it seemed that her main goal in life was to harm Jacob. We did a few phone counseling sessions with Naomi Aldort and got to the bottom of the issue: that Katie was feeling unloved and unwanted, and she really wanted to make Jacob go away so she could have us to herself. Yet she knew that that was a "terrible" think to wish for, for your brother to die or go away forever, so she felt even worse about herself. It can be a vicious cycle.

We dealt with it successfully but it did recur mildly when Jacob started to walk -- and this may be what is going on with Nico. Kaya is now a walking toddler and more of a "direct threat" to Nico. She's suddenly just like her and she may be feeling jealousy that she has not previously experienced.

Here is how we dealt with it. When she hit or hurt, we did what Allison said, basically. I said "Katie, I have a need for everyone in this house to be safe. Please go to your room until you can control yourself and not hit or hurt Jacob. This is very important." It was up to her to decide when she'd calmed down enough to come back out. When she came out we'd hug and say something positive and reinforce that she needed to control herself or back in her room again. I also never ever left them alone together during this time. When I saw her going for him I would block her physically, take her aside and give her love and attention. I would say "I love you even while I hold Jacob," and "I see that you are needing my attention. Hurting Jacob is not the way to get that. Come here and I will give you a hug. I love you very much."

I also -- and this I think was key -- spent one on one time with her while Jacob was asleep. During this "special time," sometimes, we talked about her feelings toward her brother. I said how I sometimes wished, when I was little, to throw my brother in the garbage because I was so mad that he took up so much of my mom's time. We acted things out with dolls, and got her to say her true feelings...that she hated him and wished he would go away. We made sure to tell her that her feelings were okay and that we loved her no matter what.

Ugh I am going to be sick...blech...thought I was over this stomach flu but I guess not. That's it from me!

Originally posted by )O(Meeshi)O(
I wanted to add that I don't think it is an attention thing, either. Nico and I do crafts, worksheets and activities all day long. She gets more of my attention that Kaya does, it seems.

Meeshi,

Boy, you have received a lot of responses! I don't have time to read them all to make sure I am not repeating someone, so please forgive me if I am indeed repeating.

Some physical aggression between siblings is normal. I'm not suggesting that adults needs to let it go without using the moment to teach.......but all six of ours will physically fight on occasion. (especially our girls)

I'm not sure where you stand with discipline so I'll offer a couple of suggestions.

You can use punitive discipline which would include taking something away or having Nico have time-out. (with time out, only one minute per year in age) But if doing this, you have to use a lot of talking to make sure Nico understands the "whys" and that you offer her alternative ways to deal with her anger (like making a angry pillow for her to use) If you don't talk and offer alternatives, then she will just get very resentful and more angry. I think time-out is fine to use...but ONLY when used with education and alternatives.

(a "angry pillow" can be a store bought pillow or one you sew. Just make a mad looking face on it so Nico identifies with it and can take her frustrations out on the pillow.....I know this technique is not one that everyone agrees on...but IMHO anger is healthy and we need to learn how to vent anger in appropriate ways)

If you are against this, then you could make a reinforcement chart. In education-speak we call it token economy. You can do this in many many ways. I'll just throw out a suggestion and you will probably come up with a idea that is tailored right to Nico. You could make up a grid chart or a simple line drawing (like a spiral). Have small stickers or a stamp.....I'm thinking about those inexpensive star stickers that schools use. You'll have to decide in what units you want to break this down.....you may choose daily, or hourly or every 6 hours etc.....with Nico's age, I'd probably use mealtimes as my time to check behavior, talk to her about it and place a star on her chart. She only gets a star if she did not hurt Kaya during that timeframe. This means physical and verbal. At the end of the chart, Nico gets to do something special or you could have a small treasure box that you have filled with small prizes and she gets to choose from it. She can then show her chart to Daddy when he gets home and she will feel such a accomplishment!

**Note: if you are using a line drawing, then put a star along the line until the lines are all covered.

Now....the question most often asked about this method is, "Won't my child become dependent on getting something for being good?". Well, Nico needs to learn to not hurt others. She is not learning it by watching you and J model behavior....but modeling behavior is important so don't think your modeling is not good! You need to use external motivation (the stars) to get her on the path of proper behavior........she will feel good inside from this accomplishment, therefore gaining internal motivation for behaving, and you will eventually be able to wean the program out.

For weaning from token economy, move from giving stars at mealtimes to only once a day.......then every other day, etc.....


Please beware that with any behavior modification plan, Nico's behavior will spike and get really bad before it starts to get better. So don't give up!!! I can't remember what the peak time is (I haven't taught for a few years so I'm a bit rusty).....but I'm thinking the bad behavior will peak about 5-10 days after you start any behavior modification program.

Please feel free to ask me any clarifying questions if you want to. You can also email me since I don't come here too often anymore. (trying to get my HP training done by the second week of July) michelleinne@yahoo.com

Bright Blessings and Hugs,

Jade
(Michelle)

***edited to add, It is me MICHELLE! *lol* I accidentally signed this post with the other name I use nearly everywhere else online.

i say the last 3 responses are THE best. really, i beg you, don't put her in time out for so long. the rule is only one minute per year of age. four seems so big to you because kaya is so small but 4 is still a baby really. emotionally she is still very needy and that kind of rejection is too much.

believe me i feel your frustration and need for an immediate result. you want kaya to be safe and that is a very important and valid need. i really need for my baby to be safe too. it really really gets to me when emme has bit him or pushed him over or thrown something at him (or me). it infuriates me. but... i forget that she has some very powerful needs too. she has no idea how to cope with that.

i don't think that nico is really trying to hurt her to the point of destruction. i am sure that it will continue but there will be an end.

try not to see nico as a "mean" child because she is hurting kaya. she just has some needs that are not being met. find them and try to meet them and the behavior will start to go away.

i wish you luck and strength...

julia

I really worry that such a long time out will really be damaging to Nico. Such a long period of isolation could really leave her feeling like a "bad" girl, unlovable, etc. And I believe that the aggression might become even worse as a result of the punishment!! Try developing a more reasonable consequence (I love the idea of the time-in...that is wonderful!!)...or maybe losing some special priviledge.
Children do not usually just begin misbehaving (especially aggressively) for no reason. It sounds like there is something bothering Nico, and if you help her express it, you will be better able to teach her alternative things to do besides showing aggression. It sounds like you are a wonderful step-mother to Nico!! You might even give her more attention and love then she receives at her mothers! I am thinking that it is probably very hard to leave your family at the end of the weekend and wait an entire week (an endlessly long time to a four year old) before she sees you again. I have a four year daughter, and am single. My dd sees her dad almost every day, but still misses him horribly on the few days she does not see him. (and misses me horribly when I go to work). Nico might not be able to express that she misses you or is lonely...try to give her the words to express herself!
I would recommend focusing on Nico's positive behaviors. Reinforce the things she does right as much as possible (playing nicely with Kaya, being gentle with Kaya, using kind words to Kaya). Set up some reinforcement chart. You could provide her with a sticker each weekend day that she uses gentle hands, and if she makes it through the entire weekend without hitting or biting, let her select something special that she would like to do (it might be something that she wants to do as a family, or a special alone time thing that she wants to do with either you or her father). Spend lots of time talking about gentle touches (you could make cut outs of hands and have her think of gentle touches and rough touches). Teach her empathy...talk alot about how sad and scared Kaya was when she was bit/hit. Ask Nico to describe how she would feel if she was hit or bit or ??? Give her lots of ways to express her feelings...read books about feelings and then personalize it (when do you feel sad like that?) Make up stories together or act out using her dollhouse dolls about a little girl in a very similar situation to Nico (living in two houses, going back and forth, having a sister and dad who she only sees on weekends). Young children might be unable to express how they are feeling, but will describe it through play or art or stories.

You might find the book, "parenting young children" very helpful. It focuses on understanding the causes of the misbehavior, and developing natural or logical consequences.
good luck!!
christy

I hear you and I fully understand. Having older kids has been a real eye-opener for me. As a book that I read said: I was a perfect parent until I had children. rofl!!

Two books that I have read that have been the most important to me are:

How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
and
Siblings Without Rivalry

Both are incredible and full of insight. Your local library should have them or be able to get copies of them.

While I fully agree that Nico can't hurt her sister, her punishment of a full evening of time out is both arbitrary and excessive. She is a just a little one too. She may not even connect the time out with her action after a time. They forget. Also, would you want to be reminded of something bad you did over and over and over?

You received some good advice that I do agree with. I just want you to know that the actual actions of Nico are normal and not excessively violent as scary as it seems to you. Also, you answered one of your own questions:

You said you were at the point where you didn't want to leave them alone together. This is probably a good idea until you've had some time to figure out how to deal with this. Until then, your entire family will feel badly and uncertain.

In our family, it's our middle dd who uses violence. She's 3.5.

Everyone else has pretty much covered it. . . I will say that you might have to try a few of the suggestions before you find a good fit for your situation.

One thing that we also do is to make it clear that violent behavior hurts both the victim *and* the attacker. I always found the attacking child to be left with a powerful negative feeling after and incident, and am quick to point this out. This seems to help my dd stop and think twice - sometimes she really stops herself.

Also - at 4.5, is she old enough to understand the concept that just as you need to ensure that no one hurts Kaya, you also do the same for her? After the first incident, she may have developed a feeling that you will protect kaya *above* her. KWIM? that's one thing that my 3yo recently told me. . . that she has to hit to protect herself, b/c I always protect my 5 yo. That's not exactly true, of course, it's just that no one has attacked my 3 yo. But to a child, perception is reality. . .

Also, just an observation, the incident you describe with the other boy over the carrots? Where you say that she said she did it so he wouldn't take all of the carrots, but there were plenty left? You're looking at the situation from an adults POV - plenty of carrots to share. I always get into trouble when I think like an adult. ;) Just off the top of my head, I can come up with 1)a child is not really aware of how much she or another child might eat. All she knows is that there is someone else depleting the stack of carrots 2) maybe last week she was somewhere where another child horded a common snack, and she went without 3) maybe she feels tired of having to share things when visiting her sister - at her house she's an only child, right? 4) maybe she feels that when she is not at your house, she has no control over who touches *her* stuff, so she needs to establish dominance when she *is* there. . .

Not to say that the behavior is appropriate, it isn't. But I have found that my children always have very real reasons for doing what they do, even if they can't articulate them. Sometimes I have to watch a while to see what is really going on. . .

Good luck. I know that this must be very frustrating for you. . .

i did not read the other responses so I am sorry if this is repeated-

To me it sounds like she is getting possesive since kayah started to walk and get into more of 'her' things. It may also be an age thing - my ds started testing his limits BIG time at about this age. I barely turn away and he would push his sister (could still see it out of the corner of my eye). What I do with ds is alot of time outs - take away fav. toy - ask 'how would you feel if that happened to you'. Worked some for us but we still have our battles.

hth
(((((

How about a "cuddle corner?" She can have her quiet time there when she is feeling out of control. Make it soft and fun with lots of pillows, quiet toys, books, crayons....something tactile to engage both sides of the brain.

For the first few times, you may need to accompany her to the corner. Saying something like, "Let's read a book, color a picture, etc...." This is along the lines of what Allison said above about Ara sitting on the couch. Soon, she will start to head there herself when she is feeling out of control.

When things have simmered down, tell her something like, "I feel sad when you choose to hurt Kaya/Emmett. We do not hurt people in our house. We use our words, not our hands. When you feel someone is bothering you, get me because it is your job to have fun and play. It is my job to make sure you are all safe."

Punitive punishments such as timeouts, spankings, etc...damage a child's self-esteem and trust.

If you opt for time-outs, I believe current recommendation from AP and non-violent experts is 1 minute for every year of the child....so 4 minutes for a 4 yo and 7 min for a 7 yo....believe me, at their ages, that is long enough and feels like forever. LOL. When we use them, Justin is 4, and 2 min. did the same as 3-4 minutes, and actually better since he was not given too much time to get aggravated, fidgety, etc. We did not want to be excessive at all, just use what works gently. (This is also the recommendation in books like "How To Behave So Your Child Will Too" and the timeout magic book)