Noticed that a bunch of you listed in your "whys" of crunchiness, that *it* should be legal. Now, I am totally for the government staying out of our business, but....

If you want it legal, I imagine it would be used, or already is. So how do you justify putting toxins like that in your bodies? I mean, aren't they worse than refined sugar or pesticides? Or other medical drugs? Do you have different rules for the pollution of your body than you do for the earth?

Not trying to be offensive or anything. Just trying to figure out if maybe my perceptions of what *it* does are wrong, or to figure out if my definition of what is crunchy is wrong.

Ok flame away!

Like I said previously, there *is* no real definition of *crunchy* that I am aware of... So, that said, I'm sure that we'll have many varied opinions on thing here....

I listed in my crunchy list, that I think "it" (meaning marijuana) should be legalized... It's inconsequential whether or not it is used in my home.

In my opinion, marijuana is an herb, just like ecchinachea, cohosh, you name it. I feel that you should be allowed to grow it and use it on your own property and not have to worry about it being illegal...

I know several people who use marijuana as an antidepressant, and a very effictive one at that... Instead of turning to the pharmaceutical companies and ingesting their chemicals every day, they turn to a natural herb to push the dark away. J's mother is on several anti-depressants and she is far more whacked out than most people I've seen that have smoked a doobie, that's for sure!

Now, do you think that someone on a perscription anti-depressant could be considered crunchy?? Personally, I do, ulthough I also believe they are adding toxins to their bodies with those pills.

Now whether or not ganja is worse for your body than refined sugars and pesticides, personally I think it is not... Most marijuana is organic. And remember, not all herb is smoked... You can eat it as well, thereby keeping those lungs pure and clean.

My biggest problem with marijuana being illegal is this.... I could grow any number of plants on my property and use them for my own use... But marijuana is illegal.... Do you know why it was first made illegal? Because when plastics were starting to be used more and more, the Dupont corporation decided that they wanted to change from an agricultural society (hemp etc) to a petroleum based society... Basically, they bought off a few policy makers (corporations do that??? who knew?!) and marijuana was made illegal! No, I don't have sourses for this offhand, but I have read several articles on the subject. I believe you can find artices in the archives of www.groundscore.org to back this up.

Do I think that they should legalize it and we should all have a big ol' pot-fest?? No. I feel like it should have the same restrictions as alcohol and tobacco do... I don't think it should be any more easily accessible to kids/teens... I don't think you should drive while high... but I do think you should have the right to grow it and partake without fearing that yu;re going to go to jail.

Ok, maybe got a bit off the subject here... Your main concern seemed to be the *pollution* issue... Though I do see that a lot of crunchies try to maintain a level of only pure things entering their bodies, I don't think that alone is the key to crunch.

For me, it's more of a political/freedom issue than anything else...

http://leda.lycaeum.org/Documents/Cannabis_Hemp_FAQ.11818.shtml

This answers a few FAQ about marijuana in general.... They do briefly touch on Dupont's part in everything but it just skims the surface. A little OT, but informative just the same...

Actually, according to the book Ain't Nobody's Business if you do (a book that explores consensual crime-- and a VERY good, very informative and educational book) -- Dupont was very heavily involved in the prohibition of it-- both because they had just developed a process for refining paper made from trees, and because they were involved in the creation of nylon. Paper from trees was a much more expensive product thatn paper from hemp (especially since ag machines were making huge leaps at the time, and there were several products that would have made hemp much easier than it already was to plant and harvest). Up until that point hemp was used because it provided an inexpensive and renewable resource.

Ainslinger then enters into the picture and begins his campaign against the devil weed which causes vivid hallucinations and would cause a normal person to rape and kill their own family. :rollseyes: Oh, and it was also identified as a "negro" drug, and if you were white and caught doing it, it meant you had been hanging around "negroes"-- which in the 1930's was a very socially unacceptable thing. Ainslinger spread blatant lies about the effects of marijuana which eventually led to laws against it-- not because of any real studies based upon the effects of marijuana, but because of one man's crusade againt the devil weed-- which had economic and racial basis. And don't get me started on opium and racial bias against the chinese. :)

Oh, and just because I will stand up for your right to do it in your home doesn't necessarily mean I have it in mine. There are many many consensual crimes that I will stand up for your right to participate in but do not participate in myself. To me it is an issue that involves civil liberties more than anything else (now hemp is a seperate issue entirely). I also maintain that marijuana remains illegal due to major corporations--- not so much papaer and fiber companies anymore (although I believe thay have a hand in it) but think about how much legalizing marijuana would affect alcohol companies. I really could go on about the issue forever. Marijuana is not in the same class as cocaine, and it is ludicrous to suggest that it is.


but do a little research-- don't let 70 years of preaching about the devil weed cloud your vision of what marijuana and hemp really are, and what they can offer us. Marijuana could be so much more than a recreational herb if allowed to reach its potential-- and we are starting to see the health benefits of hemp oil and hemp seed in products in hfs's now--- sadly these products stilll have to be imported. We want to give tobacco farmers something to replace tobacco as their cash crop???Hemp would be a great replacement-- oh, and as a side note-- hemp and marijuana are related, but ARE different plants-- you would have to smoke a field of hemp to get even a tiny bit high.

I would love to answer any questions-- consensual crimes are a pet of mine :)

heather

I totally agree Meeshi! and just wanted to say what a beautiful picture in your sig!

but if you were going to do it, wouldn't it be best to grow your own?
Then you'd know if it was "pure" or not or whatever...I'm not up on the "lingo". ;)
I know some people - vaguely - who grow their own so they are not supporting the drug trade and all the violence associated with it, etc. It's something they enjoy - like a glass of wine or beer - or it used to be before they had kids. I'm pretty sure they abstain now...and with six kids, who's got time?
LOL
I concur with herc about Dupont...they invented the synthetic fiber that replaced hemp in rope making. You couldn't get high off hemp if you tried, but DuPont had a vested interest in leading everyone to believe you could. Hemp, if planted near marijuana, will actually lower the level of THC (what caused the "high") in the pot plants through cross-polination...and it's much more environmentally friendly to produce than cotton, taking virtually no pesticides or herbicides and creating a much longer, stronger and more durable fiber than the cotton plant.
A lot of people are not for the legalization of pot so they can sit on their porches and get high without fear of incarceration, but, instead, view it as both an answer to the drug problem (making it legal and regulated would eliminate the violence and crime associated with the illegal drug trade) and to the ability of farmers to grow hemp, a sustainable fiber resource that just got lumped in with pot so that DuPont could make a lot of money producing nylon.
Me? I'm on the fence. I'm not always convinced that the legalization of pot would be the panacea many people envision, but then, I can also see that the current approach is not working.
I'm all for the legalization of hemp growing in this country.

"I know several people who use marijuana as an antidepressant, and a very effictive one at that... Instead of turning to the pharmaceutical companies and ingesting their chemicals every day, they turn to a natural herb to push the dark away. J's mother is on several anti-depressants and she is far more whacked out than most people I've seen that have smoked a doobie, that's for sure!"

I needed to respond to this...marijuana can also induce depression in people who have been chronic users for years and years. It occurs frequently enough that there is actually a "marijuana induced depression" diagnosis. I write this because my ex suffers from this form of depression. He went from being a supportive, loving partner and completed devoted father (at the beginning when he was not smoking) to being in a place where he is unemployed, often does not have enough food to eat, is on the verge of being homeless, incapable of taking care of his daughter, etc. He also made several comments about comtemplating suicide.
:( It is very sad to witness a person go through such a dramatic change. Recently, his depression has drastically improved. He signed up for school, spends time with dd everyday, and seems to be developing a positive outlook on life. He also mentioned that he has not smoked for a while because he cannot afford to.

I am just telling this story because I used to think that marijuana was this completely safe, harmless thing. I never really used it myself, but was supportive of it being legal because it seemed so "safe".
And now I can see that it has risks...like all other substances do. It IS a "pollution" that we put in our body. A little bit might not be that harmful, but when the pollution builds up, it does have negative effects. Just like if I drink a glass of wine with dinner, that is not going to have a huge negative effect on my body. But if I drink two bottles of wine every single day, that is going to harm me.
christy

I agree with just about everything everyone has said here.
(Except for most of it being grown organically ;)

No flames to you wendydagny!

Just please research!
You have been given some great links to start. :)

NO! I do not think it is worse than sugar or otc or prescription drugs!

Yes, people can abuse it.
I was raised by abusers ...
However, I NEVER saw anyone do anything 'wild' and out of control while smoking/eating pot.

However, while drinking or taking prescription meds, that is ANOTHER story!

Hope

Isn't it worse than cigarette smoking on your lungs though?

Okay, a bit off topic....but since we're all mamas I thought it might be interesting to some...

Dr. Andrew Weil, who is into complementary medicine and organic food and so on, seems to believe that marijuana during pregnancy may be less harmful than either caffeine or alcohol:
http://www.drweil.com/app/cda/drw_cda.html?command=TodayQA&pt=Question&questionId=4076

If you read some of his other answers about pot, it seems clear that he also feels it have important uses as an herb.


Janice

I am just telling this story because I used to think that marijuana was this completely safe, harmless thing. I never really used it myself, but was supportive of it being legal because it seemed so "safe".
And now I can see that it has risks...like all other substances do.

I just want to agree with you here. I didn't mean to make it sound like it was a completely safe and harmless thing. Whether we're talking marijuana, Zoloft, valerian root, tobacco, alcohol, Paxil, they *all* have potentially negative side effects.

And Sara, I guess it depends on how you use it. Many people eat it. Or smoke it with a filter, or through a water filtration device (*lol* or, a bong).

ITA! I think marijuana should also be legal.

I don't consider myself "crunchy" (just working on it, bit by bit :)) but I agree with the comparisons to the chemical anti-depressants... I used in the past both as an anti-depressant and for horrible cramps I get with AF. Worked better than anything else I tried, and even with the side effects I had (typical dry mouth, etc.) it was much easier on me than Effexor, Zoloft, or Prozac. Now this may not mean that it's less "dangerous" or pollutes your body less.... But it seems like less toxins being in your system is as good a reson as any other for there being less side effects, KWIM?

Just my thoughts on it :)

Thanks for all the links, and I did find that Dupont link quite interesting.

I guess my issue with it is that as a medical student, I had the opportunity to see lungs of smokers and marijuana users, and they were obviously diseased. They were black, unhealthy, and keratinized (no longer inflatable).

And I find that interesting that Meeshi would say it's an anti-depressant. (I just looked this up in my neurophysiology text). It is for some people, but the effects of marijuana are so unpredictable, that *my book* says that it intensifies depression more often than it cures it.

The same text says that it inhibits male sex hormones and lowers sperm production.

It just kind of weirds me out that someone would put that in their body after going to the trouble to avoid any chemicals in foods or prescription/non-prescription drugs. We personally don't use *any* drugs or eat non-organic food. The only herb I've even used medicinally in the past four years has been in my rr leaf tea.

I was not saying I disagreed with legalization. I believe myself in minimalist government and regulation of things in general. I am just surprised when I see health-conscious people in favor of drug use. And to me, when someone says they want it legal, that tends to mean they'd use it. Am I wrong here?

Thanks for the insight! And I really hope I am not offending again. I know I keep saying that, but I tend to come across a little raw in my posts :)

>Isn't it worse than cigarette smoking on your lungs though?

From what I remember, yes. My memory says that 1 complete marijuana cig= 2 packs of tobacco in terms of lung damage. But that may be because of the unfilter/filter thing. And I don't have a source on that-- just what's stuck in my head.

Originally posted by Scottishthistle
Isn't it worse than cigarette smoking on your lungs though?


This would be true if you smoked a pack of joints a day ;)

But most recreational pot smokers just smoke one or 2 joints a day and there are probably days when they don't smoke at all.

My parents always grew their own, just for themselves, never to distribute.

I used to smoke a lot back in my younger years. But I havent in a very long time. I think it should be legal for so many reasons, too many to type out while nak, lol.

I don't like the fact that alcohol is seen as a harmless passtime and pot is illegal. People die of alcoholism and drunk driving all the time, but I've yet to know of a marijuana induced death.

Originally posted by Wendydagny
>Isn't it worse than cigarette smoking on your lungs though?

From what I remember, yes. My memory says that 1 complete marijuana cig= 2 packs of tobacco in terms of lung damage. But that may be because of the unfilter/filter thing. And I don't have a source on that-- just what's stuck in my head.

Now, I have read the opposite. They also have yet to be able to link cancer and marijuana smoking.

Plus, you have to remember, most recreational users aren't going to sit down and smoke a complete joint by themselves. Back in my smoking days, one joint would be shared between a group of us. Plus, I don't know many people that smoke a pack of joints a day :) Okay, there are some serious users that would, but they are much fewer than people that smoke a joint every once and awhile.

I support the legalization of marijuana. Heck, just went to Seattle Hemp Fest last weekend. That doesn't mean I smoke anymore, I just think the reasons that pot are illegal are ridiculous, it is all about $$. Cotton growers don't want hemp used, nylon makers don't want hemp used, people benefiting from the war on drugs don't want marijuana legal.

If pot is illegal they should at least make it fair and make alcohol and cigarettes illegal also. I think alcohol is far more dangerous - pot makes you mellow, I don't know anyone that gets stoned and rapes or fights, beats their family, etc, unlike alcohol.

Just for the record, I think all drugs should be decriminalized. The war on drugs is a freaking joke and a waste of money. Countries where they have decriminalized all drugs have way lower drug usage rates than we do. We spend the most money on fighting drugs than any other country yet we have the highest drug usage rate. Makes me sick.

Hi. I want to say that I agree with legalising pot, not just for the medicinal aspects but also because of all of the other things that can be done with it (in the form of hemp) and its economic potential for farmers in this country. (The cotton and tobacco industries also played large roles in the criminalization of maijuana in one way or another, although that subject can be saved for a new post). The reason that I wanted to write though is because in a way I disagree with the statement that using anti-depressents is non-crunchy. This is not a flame, so please don't be offended. I agree that using them is not the crunciest thing in the world to do but I think that for some people it is a matter of life and death. My sister for example, has to be on anti-depressents. She is a master herbalist and tried every natual remedy that she could think of- including weed, which only depresses her more. Anti-depressents saved her from doing something to herself that would have destroyed our family. I think that besides her taking the pills, she is about the crunciest person I know....not that there is a contest going on or anything to see who is the crunchiest person.....
Again, I am not trying to flame anyone, I am just being my loud-mouthed self......but I really hope this list thing is has not turned us into a bunch of show and tellers to see who can be the crunchiest of the crunch! Being "crunchy" means different things to different people and I think the best thing that we can do is to learn from each other that it is okay and desireable to have different views about our lifestyles as long as the semi=crunchy, the super-crunchy, the
almost crunchy, the wanna-be crunchy and all of the other labels we come up with for ourselves and each other, are accepted within the forum, because in my mind that is the crunchy way.

Originally posted by arasmama



Just for the record, I think all drugs should be decriminalized. The war on drugs is a freaking joke and a waste of money. Countries where they have decriminalized all drugs have way lower drug usage rates than we do. We spend the most money on fighting drugs than any other country yet we have the highest drug usage rate. Makes me sick.


ITA! The decriminalizing of narcotics in the US would have huge positive global effects as well.

Okay, my face is burnin' red. SORRY. I am sensitive about the issue and I I originally thought I read that ....some one using anti-depressents can't be considered crunchy. My mistake. I hang my head in shame.....Hopefully no offense taken by anyone....

This has been a totally fascinating thread. Thanks to all the mamas who posted such interesting information. I've long been a supporter of decriminalization, for most of the reasons Meeshi describes, but I'd never heard about the DuPont/hemp link.

Personally I don't really care one way or another but I was curious enough to look up this info found at http://www.drugs.indiana.edu/publications/iprc/factline/marij.html


Marijuana is highly fat soluble, and thus it is absorbed readily and will accumulate in the brain, liver, lungs and reproductive organs. These parts of the body are covered by fatty membranes. As a result of this storage within the body, marijuana poses serious danger because its effects may persist for several days or even weeks, with chronic use.

Several facts about marijuana smoking have produced persistent concern about its effects on the respiratory system. First, marijuana is smoked "unfiltered," and the cigarette is consumed almost entirely. Also, marijuana is deeply inhaled, and when it is smoked, the smoke is held in the lungs for several seconds. Marijuana smoke contains carbon monoxide, nitrosamines, benzopyrene, and over 60 cannabinoid compounds. All of these are respiratory irritants and potential carcinogens. Long-term use has been shown to produce precancerous cell changes and several recent studies suggest that marijuana smoking can lead to lung cancer. Users have reported symptoms such as hoarseness, coughing, laryngitis and bronchitis.

In addition to irritation of the respiratory system, specific physical effects of marijuana use include increased pulse and heart rate, and with chronic use, impairment of the immune system. Also, there is evidence that regular marijuana use may damage the reproductive system, including reducing sperm production and decreasing estrogen production, and causing menstrual or ovulatory irregularities. Research on marijuana use during pregnancy is inconclusive, although like most substances, marijuana crosses the placental barrier. Evidence suggests that marijuana use during pregnancy may be sufficient to produce permanent fetal abnormalities, and if combined with other drug use, inadequate prenatal care or malnourishment, harm to the fetus may increase greatly.

Marijuana also produces inability to complete psychomotor tasks. Driving performance is impaired, due to altered perception of space and time, and reduced ability to make quick decisions. Marijuana intoxication interferes with other skills such as communicating, or recalling verbal or graphic material from short-term memory. The degree of impairment depends on the dose and potency of the drug, the individual's tolerance, and the complexity of the task.

Many feelings experienced by marijuana users are subjective in nature. Feelings may include euphoria, relaxation and hilarity, and negative psychological reactions include panic attacks, anxiety and hallucinations. Although it is difficult to measure objectively, researchers have expressed concern over marijuana's effects on motivation. A picture has emerged of amotivational syndrome, which can be described as a massive and persistent loss of ambition that is replaced by chronic apathy and passivity toward goals and the future. Amotivational syndrome is seen most frequently in heavy marijuana users.

Tolerance to a drug develops when increasing doses of a drug are required to produce the same effect. If marijuana use is infrequent or doses are small, tolerance to the drug is not apparent. After prolonged use, however, it is necessary to ingest more marijuana to produce the same feelings. The fact that the body stores THC may be a factor in developing tolerance.

Physical dependence is manifested when an interruption of drug use produces physical withdrawal symptoms. It is believed that marijuana is not physically addictive, except in extremely high doses that are atypical of the majority of users. But because of the "good feeling" and instant gratification that marijuana can produce, psychological dependence is a very real consequence. Moreover, the lack of motivation that also is experienced by regular users may make it even more difficult to discontinue using marijuana.

And I find that interesting that Meeshi would say it's an anti-depressant. (I just looked this up in my neurophysiology text). It is for some people, but the effects of marijuana are so unpredictable, that *my book* says that it intensifies depression more often than it cures it.

The same text says that it inhibits male sex hormones and lowers sperm production.

Who wrote that textbook?? Dupont?? ;) (And I *do* say that in jest!)

But, seriously, it's hard to find too many textbooks that have a completely unbiased opinion on the subject...

Think about who funds the testing of things like the effect of marijuana on people. I do realize that there are examples of privately funded testing, but call it a conspiracy theory, I do believe that pro-marijuana results often get *lost*... I'll have to dig to see if I can find it, but we've got an article out of Ithaca that talks about a test someone was doing on the effects of THC on rats with cancer. When results started showing that the rats given THC had a *much* longer survival rate, the funding got pulled and the data up to that point was confiscated. I'm pretty sure I last saw the article in a stack of alternative publications out on the studio/storage... I can dig if you want me to.

Ok, I've got a thrift store mission to complete now... I have really enjoyed reading this thread!! I hope we have more like it in the future!!

Oh, and I sincerely hope no one feels that there is a "Crunchier Than Thou" thing going on here... The list, IMO, was merely a way to see which Mama's here crunch in the same way you do.... At least, that's the way *I* took it.

Brightest Blessings!

Originally posted by Wendydagny
. And to me, when someone says they want it legal, that tends to mean they'd use it. Am I wrong here?



Yep, you are wrong here ;) I want it legalized but have no desire to ever use it again.

and can't stand the smell of it....

but I don't drink or take any optional medications either so that is just my own purist approach to life.

I do think it should be legalized with limits (like alchohol and tobacco) so it isn't so totally available to every single child and adolescent in the country. (Those who want to find a way always will......but kids like I was wouldn't dare!)

My SIL who passed away from multiple sclerosis had a perscription for it and used it (baked in cookies) so she would have an appetite for other foods but ultimately though it helped keep her alive longer......she still wasted away bedridden and died.

I do think it should be readily available to people for such medical reasons.

Other than that.........I don't have much more to add


Mari

Let me say and hopefully this time without putting my foot in my mouth that I meant to offend no one and I apoligize if I did. I HATE lists. I am not organized enough to make them for myself and if I do I forget where I put them and I don't liek labels, probably because I am always called them because of my ideas and my "radical" thoughts. I participated in the list thing anyway because I like to hear about what other moms do. It just seemed to me that some mamas were saying that they wanted to be this way or that way. Plus I misread your post which I already said and I thought the tone of it because of the anti-depressent thing was that way. Like I said, I am embarrassed for getting a little hot before I reread the post and my comments would have been different had I done that before pressing the submit reply. Hey, it's my non crunchy thing to work on, being hotheaded that is.

Yup, yup, and yup. I'm also in support of legalizing mj :)
Every day it remains illegal makes 'the man' richer and richer :p

~Kas

Welp, I am *against* it....I hope it is never legalized......I do NOT need people living next door to me, or standing next to me, smoking it and blowing their smoke MY way......uh-uh, no way. If it's legal, then what? You can smoke it where? In public? Your own home? What about neighbors living close by who can smell it? Or children in the home??? No way, I think it's a bad idea, and akin to smoking. And yes, I know smoking is legal.....the one difference with smoking is that I do NOT get high or a buzz standing next to someone who is doing it. In my opinion, it's a drug, and needs to stay illegal except for my being on the fence over it being used for medicine only.

Originally posted by ~Denise~
If it's legal, then what? You can smoke it where? In public? Your own home? What about neighbors living close by who can smell it? Or children in the home???

The way I would envision it is that marijuana (and other currently illegal drugs, if they were legalized) would be regulated just as alcohol and tobacco are. Those regulations could include having to purchase from authorized dealers, or there would be a minimum age requirement, or it can only be consumed in a home or in a licensed establishment, etc.

Yep, that's the way I envisioned it as well... Stemming from a cigarette burn I got right below my eye as a small child walking through a crowd at a carnival ~ The guy who did it never even stopped ~ I feel that even cigarettes shouldn't be allowed in public outdoor events...

Don't get me going on how I react to seeing a parent smoking in a car with the kids, even with the windows open. That's how it was when I was growing up and it made me queasy every time we rode anywhere...

Anyway, just call me Tangent Girl... :eek:

What a great thread. I am admittedly a fence sitter here. I would love to grow hemp (we don't) but that is just for shock factor.

In Colorado (and a few other States, I am sure). You can get Marajana through and Rx for medicinal purposes. I did see this as a break through. BUt alas, I continue to fence sit ;)

Kayasmommy, are you a Sagitarius?
;)

I want to say on the reproduction thing...
My whole life I was around pot heads.
My parents, their friends, my dh, his friends.
I do not mean occasional smokers.
I mean day to day smoking, smoking, smoking from the time they wake up until the time they go to bed.

I am laughing at the posts that say pot smokers are occasional smokers.
Snort.

Anyway...
I have never known any of these people to be infertile, quite the opposite!

Not saying it could not happen...

I do not want it to be legal so I can smoke.
I think it can be a beneficial herb.
When used properly.
Your body would be harmed if you drank a ton of goldenseal, but in small amounts, it can be very helpful.
Same with just about any herb...
Nettles, comfrey....

My dh's grandfather was a very 'outstanding ' man in his community.
Was NOT a pot smoker.
When he was diagnosed with cancer, he smoked pot to help him feel better after chemo.
He was getting this illegal.
What a shame this 76 yr old man could have gone to jail for this.

After researching, my grandfather had wanted to get medical marijuana for his glaucoma, but the doctors laughed at him.

I agree it can add to depression to people, it did with my dh.
However, see above!
It took him years to quit.
He was a mess.
I do not agree that it is not physically addictive, because he was addicted to it! He had stomach cramps and headaches unless he smoked.

However, even with going though that with him, I still think it should be legal.


I get what you are asking, the hypocrisy of trying to be healthy but wanting this legalized.
However, I am sure alot of people that would like to see it legalized are NOT pot heads!
What you are talking about my stepmother used to love to make fun of.
She had lived in a commune and she said it was hilarious to her, because they only ate organic grown food they had grown.
Yet, everyone was a big fat drug addict and would take any and every drug that crossed their path.
Now,THAT is hypocrisy! ;)

Originally posted by Wendydagny:
And to me, when someone says they want it legal, that tends to mean they'd use it. Am I wrong here?

------Yes you are. I don't smoke it, I hate it for personal reasons/my own issues. If it were legal still I'd have zero deisre or tendency to smoke it.
But yes, I do think it should be legal.

Just for the record I hate cigarettes too.

Boy, I wish I could say exactly what I thought without fear of repercussion-- these ARE open forums though, and marijuana IS illegal. That being said, I do have friends who use marijuana responsibly and occasionally. They use it in their own home in the same way that they would use alcohol-- on occasion, and to relax-- like at the end of a long work week. These are middle class people-- people I would almost term yuppies-- they are not part of any group that you would identify as typical drug users (please no one take offense-- you know what I mean OK). SO I disagree -- I think you CAN be an occasional somoker--
anyway, I need to go-- will add more later
heather

I agree with the point that is is a herb. I am also one for legalizing it.

It really does have medicinal value, so I see it as different from synthetic stuff...it is another of mother natures wonderful gifts to us!

Hugs,

:waving:

Michelle

Hmmm, but buying from a dealer who is regulated and licensed does not solve the fact that if my neighbors smoke it on their porch, *I* end up smelling it and being exposed to it....and yes, cigarettes are the same way.....but I don't get high or a buzz off those....and I don't get drunk sitting next to a drinker......And I'd really worry for the children being exposed....so you can smoke it in your own home? What about the kids? How do you hide the smell? Not expose them? I just can't see it. I really hope we never legalize it for use like that. Medicinal, ok, under strict guidelines and using in homes with no children....What are you going to do, hide the kids or send them off while you get high? Hmmm, I just feel they'd end up being exposed and with such young and small systems, getting highs along with you. Yuck.

Ok I would think secondhand smoke from cigarettes is MUCH worse than secondhand smoke from marijuana. ANd I am not sure where you get the idea that you could get high from your neighbors smoking on their porch??? Dh has a bachelors degree in psychology, and psychpharmachology was one of his senior level classes--- he said that the concept of a conact buzz is a myth, and people who claim to have it are actually experiencing a placebo effect. The smoke to air ratio is so low that there is no way THC could enter into the bloodstream in high enough amts to make a difference (and DH went to a religious college, so I assure you, if this were even a possibliity, they would have touted the evils of it :) )

heather
:)

Oh, and also, I think we are talking about smoking AND otherwise ingesting marijuana-- smoking is not the only way to get a high from pot :)

I just wanted to weigh in that I am pro-marijuana decriminalization even though:

1. I have never smoked or ingested pot in my life (gasp!)
2. I wouldn't even if it were legal, except for medical reasons (if I ever develpoed glaucoma or cancer, for example)

I choose not to use it, but I don't care for the fact that that choice is made for me, or that it is difficult to get realistic information to make that choice with because the govt diseminates incorrect information (a habit for them, but still...)

Since the Sacrameto valley is the meth production capitol of the world the war on drugs is big here. Lots of federal money, state money, local money, lots of time police could be spending on something else, and you know what- there are crank addicts all over the place, and none of them have a problem getting thier next high. The war on drugs doesn't work.

They do surveys time and again and find out that teens can get pot easier than cigarretes or alcohol. Maybe we could keep it away from minors a bit better if it was behind store counters and needed ID, instead of being sold out of the locker of that kid in fourth peroid, YKWIM?

-Melissa, only sorta crunchy but working on it!

Magnoliamom, nope not a sag, although I was raised around a couple so that might explain something.......hey I am pregnant with one (I think it will be anyway). ((((( ??????? I am like this all the time, so there really is no excuse (Im a virgo for the record though)!

Originally posted by magnoliamom

I am laughing at the posts that say pot smokers are occasional smokers.
Snort.



I don't think all pot smoker's are occasional smokers, just like all aren't potheads. I think usage varies, just like people who drink alcohol or caffeine or eat sugar or so on. I know people that smoke maybe once a year and others that smoke once a day.

Denise, I don't think the people would be toking up in the park if it were legalized, I think it would be the same as alcohol, but keeping it illegal doesn't mean your neighbors aren't doing it - just means that they can go to jail if they are caught.

I have never received a contact high from being around someone that is smoking or even a whole group that is smoking. Pot is something that you need to inhale a big ole lung full and hold it in for a bit to get high, not just sniff it in the air.

Christy!! I totally agree with you. 3 years ago I would have told you marijuana isn't a bad drug. Now I know differently. My dh has been suffering from depression ever since he quit smoking it 2 1/2 years ago. He doesn't like putting toxins in his body but if it weren't for his efexxor, I don't know where he'd be right now.

Granted, I don't know if the pot caused the depression or if the pot masked the depression all these years. But I no longer think pot is as great as it I use to.

JMHO

Originally posted by woodfairie
"I know several people who use marijuana as an antidepressant, and a very effictive one at that... Instead of turning to the pharmaceutical companies and ingesting their chemicals every day, they turn to a natural herb to push the dark away. J's mother is on several anti-depressants and she is far more whacked out than most people I've seen that have smoked a doobie, that's for sure!"

I needed to respond to this...marijuana can also induce depression in people who have been chronic users for years and years. It occurs frequently enough that there is actually a "marijuana induced depression" diagnosis. I write this because my ex suffers from this form of depression. He went from being a supportive, loving partner and completed devoted father (at the beginning when he was not smoking) to being in a place where he is unemployed, often does not have enough food to eat, is on the verge of being homeless, incapable of taking care of his daughter, etc. He also made several comments about comtemplating suicide.
:( It is very sad to witness a person go through such a dramatic change. Recently, his depression has drastically improved. He signed up for school, spends time with dd everyday, and seems to be developing a positive outlook on life. He also mentioned that he has not smoked for a while because he cannot afford to.

I am just telling this story because I used to think that marijuana was this completely safe, harmless thing. I never really used it myself, but was supportive of it being legal because it seemed so "safe".
And now I can see that it has risks...like all other substances do. It IS a "pollution" that we put in our body. A little bit might not be that harmful, but when the pollution builds up, it does have negative effects. Just like if I drink a glass of wine with dinner, that is not going to have a huge negative effect on my body. But if I drink two bottles of wine every single day, that is going to harm me.
christy

Well, *I* have gotten a buzz from being in the same room as pot smokers....placebo affect? I doubt it. And knowing how small babies are, and how pot reeks the air up for so long, like smoke it attaches to curtains, clothing etc., I could never imagine it being legal in a home with children. Or anywhere where anyone else had to smell it. Heck, I feel the same about cigarettes....I don't think anyone should have to smell them when being outside. Interesting to read most of the replies for pot here, but I still hold the same strong opinion that it's a nasty habit, like smoking, and one I hope does not become legal. Sorry, I just don't want to smell it or have anything to do with it, secondhand or not. It's a drug, imo, and is easily abused as well. And yes, I know alcohol and cigarettes are too.....but making one more high causing habit legal is not going to help. MY opinion. (o;

I guess I see us having two different conversations. You think pot shouldn't be smoked, I think drugs should be legal. I don't really see them as related. Making drugs illegal does NOT stop their usage. We have proved that over and over and over. Doesn't matter if you don't want your neighbors smoking, making it illegal won't/doesn't stop them.

I think we should be spending the "war on drugs" money HELPING people, not criminalizing them. The threat of jail does not stop someone from purchasing drugs. People using hard core drugs (like meth, etc) need intervention, they need counseling, they need life skills training, not jail time. We are throwing billions of dollar to the wind just so our government can feel that they are doing something about our horrendous drug problem when they aren't doing crap. They keep pouring in more money, putting more people in prison yet the drug problem gets worse and worse.

My SIL is dead from meth usage. It made her so sick she got pnuemonia and died. The threat of jail didn't keep her clean, the fact that she has two wonderful children that she never got to see didn't keep her clean. She needed help, she needed counseling, she needed professional intervention - not the threat of jail time.

Originally posted by Lizzie3143
Christy!! I totally agree with you. 3 years ago I would have told you marijuana isn't a bad drug. Now I know differently. My dh has been suffering from depression ever since he quit smoking it 2 1/2 years ago. He doesn't like putting toxins in his body but if it weren't for his efexxor, I don't know where he'd be right now.

Granted, I don't know if the pot caused the depression or if the pot masked the depression all these years. But I no longer think pot is as great as it I use to.

JMHO



I've had experience with this also. I don't think pot causes the depression. I think many people use marijuana (as well as alcohol, meth, etc etc) to escape from their problems. That is why my dh smoked. When he gave it up when I got pregnant with Ara he started sinking into depression. He wasn't able to escape from his problems anymore and he had no other skills for handling them. By the time Ara was 18 months old he was suicidal. He got counseling and learned skills for handling stress, plus worked through some issues from childhood and he hasn't been depressed since.

There are so many facets to this conversation. It's fascinating reading.
The way I see it, there are people who use pot and alcohol for many, many, many reasons. Like:
- they think it's fun to get high/drunk every now and again.
- medicinally for proven ailments - cancer, glaucoma, etc.
- self-medicinally or as an escape from undiagnosed or untreated psychological problems - depression, pschizophrenia, panic disorders, etc.
- simply as an escape from an unbearable situation without one of the above disorders.
and it could go on and on.
And I know people who could fall in to any of those categories. The research on marijuana that should've/could've been done hasn't been done because it's been a criminalized substance for the past 80-years and a demonized substance longer than that.
It could be both an anti-depressant for some and a depressant for others, just as Prozac is great for treating depression but wrong for treating other problems like bi-polar disorder.

Jennifer

"I don't think pot causes the depression. I think many people use marijuana (as well as alcohol, meth, etc etc) to escape from their problems"

I agree that this does frequently occur (people self-medicating their depression with marijuana). But there is also evidence that it works the other way too...people who begin using recreationally, and continue to use (chronically...for years on a daily or almost daily basis)...develop depressive disorders (or anxiety and other mood disorders) as a result of the marijuana use. In repeated studies, 1/3 of chronic users have shown mild forms of depressive, anxiety, or other mood disorders. In some people, the depression (or anxiety or ?) manifests when the person is intoxicated...in other people, it shows up during withdrawal. There are actually diagnoses for these: cannabis induced anxiety disorder, for example.


I also wanted to add that (maybe surprisingly?) I do support the legalization of all drugs...not because I think marijuana is harmless or I want to smoke it. I wish less people felt the need to use it or anything else...that people could feel the wonders of being high on the beauty of the world!! But I agree that people need treatment and not jail time. I do not think that illegal drugs are difficult to get even with the war on drugs...so it is obviously not working. I like the idea of people who are addicted to "bad stuff" like heroin having the option of trading in their dirty needles for clean needles....do they really need to get horrible diseases on top of their drug addiction??
so people really can be anti-drug but pro legalization!!

Well, actually I do want it to remain illegal, and I don't like the idea of using it for anything other than medicinal purposes, under a doctors care. And I do believe it being illegal does stop some people, for sure. My sister being one....if it was legal, she would not worry about a drug test showing her up for pot, and losing her job....she refrains from using it, thank goodness, only for that reason. And think many other people don't do it, anf would, if it was legal.

I just haven't had a chance to. I kept poking my head in here with the super crunchies to see what's up. :)

I have several comments, none of which are likely new to the conversation.

....and yes, cigarettes are the same way.....but I don't get high or a buzz off those....and I don't get drunk sitting next to a drinker......

This is interesting, but I think it is very unusual to get a second-hand buzz off mj. I've spent a lot of time in small tiny quarters filled with a lot of mj smoke and never once got a second-hand buzz. So, I'm not saying it didn't happen to you, but it is very unusual. Would I want it to be open season in public places? No. I personally love cigarette-free zones around me and I would picture it being the same way. Also, drinking is outlawed in many public places as well. I can see it fitting into the same category there as well. As far as smelling it from the porch? Wow! Your porches must be close! :D

Regarding marijuana causing depression? I agree with Arasmama that can be a method of escape like any substance. When you take away the method, the underlying feelings are still there. You don't get a total like transformation when you stop smoking pot.

I appreciate all of your comments Denise regarding having it away from children and home. However, I think you are underestimating some of the human race and also turning a bit of a blind eye towards the people who are going to live and function this way regardless of whether it is legal or not. Those types of people are already *endangering* their children by closing their windows and drapes and hiding it in their small dark houses. Even many of the hardcore cig smokers I know take it to a well-ventilated area now that second-hand smoke has proven so costly. Perhaps, they would choose to do it a different way too.

Many of my comments are likely off on a tangent too. I will say that I've worked with a combination of drunks and pot smokers in my day. I'd pick a pot smoker as a co-worker any day of the week. They don't show up at work hung over. I make this comment based on the partying usage of drugs/alcohol.

Just to clarify my position, I am not a pot smoker. I can count on one hand the number of times I've tried it. I have too much to do to be so *mellow*. LOL I never could stand that. I'd rather do a really strenuous hike and be high on life man....:D Life it too short for that much rest. LOL

No one in my family smokes even occasionally. Dh and I are reformed cig smokers and will not go back. Our friends don't smoke pot or at least we don't discuss it so I'm assuming they don't and if they do, that's ok with me.

I've just spent a lot of time working with drunks and pot smokers of all types. We worked and lived together between 5 and 10 years. It is kind of hard to explain, but if I'm not making sense, I will try to elaborate more.

Many people in this thread have touched on and eloquently said my opinion on marijuana. It should be legal, IMO, and so should all other drugs. Money should be put toward counseling, health care and education. I don't think anyone should ever be put in jail for a non-violent crime.

Oh, and on the organic issue, a lot of that varies by region. I've lived places where most pot is grown in Mexico on large fields, heavily sprayed with nasty pesticides. And I've lived places where most people who smoke pot know the person who grew it, how they grew it, and probably even helped take care of the plants.

Please remember when quoting textbooks and mainstream studies that most of the studies done on marijuana use and effects are inherently flawed, because they studied a population which usually uses other drugs: tobacco, cocaine, heroin, crack cocaine, etc, as well as marijuana, as well as of low socioeconomic status. So if you are looking at a population that has many other risk factors, and you find depression, lung damage, or what have you, what is to say that those negative effects are from pot and not from cocaine, meth, or even economic hardship? (For example, economic hardship is correlated with depression.)

Melanie Dreher did studies on a population that only smoked marijuana - the Jamaican Rastafarians. She studied prenatal exposure to marijuana and its effect on the babies after birth. These pregnant women were smoking *many* joints a day. She actually found *positive* effects on the babies who were exposed to the *most* pot prenatally. Here are direct quotes from her study:

Measurements and main results. Exposed and nonexposed neonates were compared at 3 days and 1 month old, using the Brazelton Neonatal Assessment Scale, including supplementary items to capture possible subtle effects. There were no significant differences between exposed and nonexposed neonates on day 3. At 1 month, the exposed neonates showed better physiological stability and required less examiner facilitation to reach organized states. The neonates of heavy-marijuana-using mothers had better scores on autonomic stability, quality of alertness, irritability, and self-regulation and were judged to be more rewarding for caregivers.

Conclusions. The absence of any differences between the exposed on nonexposed groups in the early neonatal period suggest that the better scores of exposed neonates at 1 month are traceable to the cultural positioning and social and economic characteristics of mothers using marijuana that select for the use of marijuana but also promote neonatal development.

So she attributes the positive effect on the neurological development of the babies whose moms smoked the most pot to the better socioeconomic status of the moms. But clearly, her study also shows that there was no negative effect on the newborns of being exposed to pot prenatally.

Here's the link to the whole study:
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/medical/can-babies.htm

And in an interview she says this:

Our testing showed that the children of women who used ganja had better alertness, stability and adjustment than children of women who didn't use ganja. This was measured at the age of one month. We measured children again at four years and at five years of age, and found that there were no apparent deficits in the children of marijuana-using mothers. In fact, in many ways, they were better off than children of non-smoking mothers. The ganja-using mothers also seemed better off than non-users.

Here's the link to the interview, it's awesome:
http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/1404.html

Pot is illegal for political and big-business reasons, as others have mentioned, not because it is inherently a bad substance. Like anything it has the potential to be misused and abused.

I have my sweet dd dancing on the back of my chair, so I will have to cut this short.

Edited because I don't feel comfortable having this paragraph remain after the recent, judgmental, scary posts in the mama market. :(

You're welcome, Meeshi. I wish I could say more, too! But, the Internet is a public place.

Originally posted by Wendydagny

From what I remember, yes. My memory says that 1 complete marijuana cig= 2 packs of tobacco in terms of lung damage. But that may be because of the unfilter/filter thing. And I don't have a source on that-- just what's stuck in my head. [/B]

I just heard something about this on the talk radio the other day and I think the truth is the opposite. Researchers are currently looking at the reasons why marijuana smokers *don't* have diseased lungs like smokers.

I also participated in quite a bit of smoking in my heyday~heck, I even attended the Cannibus Cup in Amsterdam one year! LOL Even though I don't do it anymore, I think it should be legal. My thinking hasn't changed, even if my habits have. :)

Meagan

I think what somebody grows and consumes in their own home is nobody's business...assuming it is done responsibly (I am not saying share it with the children etc.). Personally I think the government spends too much money, and too much time locking up pot smokers when the real criminals are wandering the streets.

I don't smoke because I can't guarantee that the herb on the street is safe. I probably would if I could grow my own.

maybe that's how it is envisioned...but the people who drink and smoke around here dont do it quietly on their porch as they watch the sunset lol. if it is legalised, it will be everywhere.

i actually went to a very liberal college and my soc prof was quite for legalization (the dupont issue is a big one)...but yes, it is way more toxic tot he lungs than cig smoe (not joint for cig...one joint is more potent/toxic to the lungs than many many cigs).

i am for it for medicinal purposes. thats it.

though they are few lol...there are some who will not try something simply because it is illegal. and no, most folks dont get violent on mj, but some *do* become very paranoid and freaked, lashing out in fear ( saw this one first hand). not to mention the impaired judgement. nothing like feeling groovy and banging the guy next to you and winding up with aids :( of course, i think the same is true of alcohol and the enforcement of alcohol laws are a joke.

as for the other nations having lower usage rates...i will look into that further. but i do not think that is simply because it is legal there.

Originally posted by rafe's mommy


The way I would envision it is that marijuana (and other currently illegal drugs, if they were legalized) would be regulated just as alcohol and tobacco are. Those regulations could include having to purchase from authorized dealers, or there would be a minimum age requirement, or it can only be consumed in a home or in a licensed establishment, etc.

JIMO**** where do you stop? Legalize marijuanna...whats next
cocaine, LSD, Crack. Everyone will find a medical reason to use something for medical reasons that is currently a controlled substance. Anything that impairs your natural being IMO is wrong. As for depression...dope will just cover it up and not get to the root of the real problem. What happens when you get off the high? Gotta get high again to feel better....kwim?

I'm not trying to be critical or point fingers here. What you do and believe is your business. I've had my share of joints and trips. But that is in the past because it got me no where but the ditch. The day I had to pee in a cup for a great job with good pay and benefits, was the day I left all that stuff behind. Frankly, I don't miss it. I love to enjoy the TRUE beauty of the world around me. Yes, I suffer from depression, but the dope only made it worse. I truly believe I wouldn't be where I am today, if I stayed on that road. I'd most likely be dead...not necessarily from the drugs but by my own hand.:(

i think pot should be legal. i think drinking is 10x's worse! and there are also many legal prescription drugs that are much more dangerous than weed! Oxycontin, and ketomine, to name a few. i think alot of money is wasted on fighting drugs.

But I don't use it, neither does my dh. In fact, dh is staunchly against anyone he cares about using it, BUT he also thinks it should be legalized. So much money is wasted on keeping it illegal, and I agree that alcohol is a hell of a lot worse than pot is ever going to be. People can get dui after dui and yet still are out there getting drunk and killing people as a result of their recklessness.

Sorry for that little rant - I personally think that moderation is the key for everything - too much of just about anything can have negative side effects.

That being said, I'm off to bake some wheat bread loaded with bran, veggies, & fruits...

Ame Jo (((((

PS: Hey, Meeshi mama! Good to see you again!:D

Conversely, Nanners, if Marijuana is going to be illegal, then why not make cigarettes illegal? Alcohol? Better yet, let's keep going and make OTC sleeping pills illegal. Actually, ALL OTC meds that cause drowsiness should be illegal, after all, it impairs your natural being. Oh, and don't forget caffiene! Oh and sugar too, better make that illegal!

I dont' know about you, but I dont' want the government deciding what I can and cannot put in my body or what I decide to be or not be addicted to. KWIM? It's a slippery slope, both ways, but IMO if the above are to be legal, then so should be pot. MHO of course.

Originally posted by Nanners
JIMO**** where do you stop? Legalize marijuanna...whats next
cocaine, LSD, Crack.

Mj is something that you can grow in your own yard and pick it and smoke it. You cannot grow LSD or crack in your garden, the y need to be produced in a laboratory. Comparing Mj to those narcotics is like comparing apples and oranges.

Not to throw a wrench in this, but LSD is pretty darn easy to make. We learned how in organic chemistry, and then we made it, save the last step so we didn't get in trouble.

My teacher also taught us how to make a still.

I guess some scientist folk are kinda out there too :)

"You cannot grow LSD or crack in your garden"

Nope, we've got our gov't to thank for those! :rolleyes:

As I mentioned previously, I don't use drugs of any sort, don't smoke, don't drink. I think mj should be legal with reasonable restrictions because pot smokers don't really do any harm, they just get really lazy. Sure, some people react wierd, but people who get paranoid are prolly not going to want to try it again right? Besides, the world is full of mad drunks and sad drunks but we still let people drink.

People on LDS do nutty and often dangerous things, get paraniod, etc. The same is true for cocaine (whether smoked in slums or snorted in the executive washroom, although prohibitionists always seem to focus on "crack"- wonder why?)

The pot smokers I know get real relaxed and consume thier body's weight in processed foods and watch bad movies while high but do not go on crime sprees, abuse thier spouses, have orgies, etc.

Also, marijuana is natural (although bred to greater than natural potency,) cocaine is a very processed and purified form of a much milder natural drug (the native inhabitants of the growing areas chew the coca leaves for a gentler high and have done so to no ill effect since time immemorial) and LSD was cooked up in a gov't lab for experiments involving mind control and the creation of "super soldiers" who were perfectly loyal, had no compassion for the enemy and needed no sleep. They have nothing in common but thier illegality.

-Melissa

woodfairie Christie, I agree with you. I don't want to take anything where I'm alterning my conciousness, I get high on the beauty in life too! I've tried it yes, didn't get addicted, no.
Cookiepants, where do we stop? I say decriminalize all drugs. If people are determined to get high or alter their conciousness they will find a way to do it-- whether sniffing glue, gorging on sugar, getting drunk, caffiene, nicotine or spinning themselves silly. The war on drugs is an expen$ive one that doesn't seem to make much headway. Smoking marijuana does not necesarily lead to herion and crack use. You drink wine, do you have a desire to drink 190 proof Everclear because of that? Smoking pot is not much different than drinking wine except one is illegal.


Yes my mom was addicted to marijuana (and before that alcohol). She is probably still toking away right now and still abusing it. I had to steal her pot growing up to sell it for my own food and she seriously neglected me by leaving town & leaving me home alone at ages 10-14y on more than one occaision.

Personally I do not like pot because of my own issues.
I do think it should be legal medicinally and otherwise.
But I can agree to disagree.

Originally posted by allnaturalmom
People on LDS do nutty and often dangerous things, get paraniod, etc.
-Melissa

Sorry but I'm roflol at this mess up....

Arasmama about the wasting $$ for prisons, my lovely loser of a BIL that enjoys spending his time in prison because he's thick headed and doesn't realize after 11 + convictions of DUI is illigal and wrong has said many a time that its easier to get drugs in prison that out of prison, so they are totaly wasting time and energy convicting these people....

But thats just my op

ROFL!!! Man, I need spell check!

-Melissa

Hmmm, well, the pot smokers I know are not just mellow people.....many of them are involved in other drugs, alcohol, losing a lot of their worth using these drugs, and yes, I mean pot too......Hemp is different than pot, imo. But making it legal to smoke pot would be wrong, imo. The smell of it is enough to make me ill, and I cannot imagine some mellow pot smoker sitting in hos own house getting high while his kids were where now? Yuck. A bad scene, imo. And yup, I say the same about people who smoke cigrettes and contaminate their homes with that stench too, causing problems with their kids health, lungs, etc. Natural does not always equal safe or ok.