...Actually this came up the other day and I wanted to get some true crunch perspective on it.

Last week we had someone over for lunch (who turned out to be crunchier than us---and he's our *contractor* :o ) and we commented that everything we were serving was organic. And he said:

"Organic is just a marketing device. Half the farms in CA that say they grow organic don't really. If you want to be environmentally correct, only buy local (we are in Mass.). They may spray with pesticides, but it's *much* worse for the environment to truck organic produce across the country in diesel-spewing vehicles than it is for a small farm to spray."

So...what's the opinion here? Local/unorganic vs. organic coming here from 3,000 miles away? Of course there is local/organic, but that stuff is wicked expensive!

PS DH is the crunchy one in the family, since he eschews shaving for women, TV, commercial radio, fast food, clothes with logos, plastic toys, disposable anythings---and loves the idea of being vegan, organic, composting, owning an electric car hybrid, environmentally safe compact fluorsecent lights, belongs to the Green Party and 2 food co-ops. :D (Just don't ask him about circ'ing or breastfeeding past 2 years, if you don't want your opinion of him ruined.)

My thought is thus: Seeing as this organic produce is coming inside a truck and not in a Sanford and son truck and is probably refrigerated too there is little chance of diesel fumes infiltrating into the produce.

...think of all the gas that's used up and then sent out into the ozone with the big trucks...

(Just thinking crunchy here.)

PS If anyone has time to read (haha) there's a great book called "Cradle to Cradle", which shows different kinds of radical, positive thinking on recycling and consumer consumption. The first chapter is called "This book is Not a Tree," because the book's not even made of paper, but some kind of recyclable fiber that looks and feels just like paper!

Sounds like a cop out to me.

First, where does he come up with the numbers that 1/2 organic farms aren't really organic?? Sounds like he doesn't know much about organic farming techniques. If you go to the trouble of "faking" your practices for to get organic certified, why wouldn't you keep implementing them? I think the hardest part is putting them to initial use (which you would have to do to get certified) and waiting the 5 years for your soil to be pesticide free. Organic farming is not more expensive than regular farming, it is more labor intensive. Plus, certification is expensive, why pay the money when you aren't going to make all that much more selling your veggies?

Where I live organic isn't much more expensive than non organic produce, in a lot of cases it is cheaper (if I buy it at the market or food coop), so the whole they lie to make more money doesn't hold water.

On the whole "what is worse for the environment" - the continued use of pesticides are going to kill the earth and we won't be able to produce more food, same with gentically modified seed so I will not support that. Yes, trucking is not great, but I don't think it is going to leave us without a food supply. Not only that, but I am one of those crazies that think toxic fertilizers (did you know they put sludge in fertilizers to "recycle" it, like stuff from Hanford) and pesticides cause cancer. If I feed my family 100% organic and 50% of it isn't really organic, I have still cut their intake of pesticides by 50%.

Most of what we eat is local organic though. I don't understand why local organic is so expensive for you? It doesn't have to be trucked and you cut out the middle man (or men). I buy farm direct, at the farmer's market, or from the food co-op. I find most of it is cheaper than non organic in a conventional farmer's market. I do buy unsprayed local produce also. Basically, it is organic but they are not certified organic. I want to support farmers that use organic techniques but aren't big enough to afford the certification process.

Allison---

Really good points. We were on Sabbatical 5 years ago in Seattle, and we were just amazed at the quantity and quality of all the produce---organic or not---and the food in general. On the East Coast there's not as much of an emphasis on health of any kind---too many cities too close together---and it's *far* harder to find local organic b/c taxes, rents, salaries, are all much higher---and frankly, b/c people here don't care as much.

There's one large certified organic farm within about half an hour driving distance I think, and a couple smaller ones which I'm not sure are organic or not. Because Marino Lookout Farms pretty much has the corner on the local organic market, they drive their prices sky high. It's relatively cheaper to just go to the Whole Foods a mile away and buy organic there.

I disagree that organic food being trucked around is worse that nonorganic local food. Part of buying organic is *creating the market* for organic goods. If more people are buying it, more farms will strive for organic status.

Of course, local organic is the best option, but there aren't many organic farms near me, either. (Sounds like you are blessed with many of them in Washington! I'm green!) There are a few, but you need to hunt them out, and I rarely travel outside the city b/c I hate using the car! :) A friend and I had toyed with the idea of starting an organic produce delivery service, but it's sort of fizzled out b/c it was going to be way too much work for 2 mamas of young children. It's on the back burner for a later date.

I do agree, though, that buying local is awesome. I try to keep as much money as possible in neighborhood businesses. I live in a part of the city where the mom-and-pop business owners live close to their businesses. So, when money comes into the business, it usually stays in the neighborhood.

Tara

There was an article in either Utne Reader or Mother Jones about this very thing. I'll try to dig it up and summarize it later b/c my memory fails me right now.
For us to eat organic produce, we either have to buy locally at the community market, get stuff from our CSA (community supported agriculture) farm or drive an hour to whole foods.
I go to the market early every Saturday. There are two organic food producers there. One grows everything she sells. The other has some things trucked in - bananas, etc. - and grows a bunch as well. I also buy eggs there from a man who has free-range eggs for $1 dozen ($.50 if you bring him an old egg carton!).
We can get a few things from our co-op, but they come in such big quantities, we can't eat it all or afford to buy $50 of carrots, KWIM?
I spend about $20/week on fresh vegetables this summer. Sometimes a dollar more or less.
Our CSA or subscription garden was great, but this drought made it fold. We'll do it again next year though.
I'm not sure what we'll do this winter.
Wing it, I guess.
I'll look for that article though.
I think if you can buy locally, you should. Also, lots of refrigerator trucks piggy-back on freight trains across the country and are only hauled overland for short distances...I know it takes less fuel for them to ride the train than drive individually.
HTH!

my thoughts on this....


1)we (my family) are going to buy frozen, washed and chopped produce such as frozn peas, broccoli spears, corn kernels. As such they are likely to come from long away anyway so they are going to be trucked whatever -- may as well buy organic rather than throwing baby out with bathwater because of the diesel.

2)we get a fruit/veg box from a local organic farm. I do this for several reasons.

a)keeps green space open in an otherwise packed residential area. The space is probably not big enough to survive as an ordinary farm...???

b)reduces run off to the ocean. This is a big deal here!

c)my wallet is doing the talking. I am supporting farming the way it ought to be IMO.

3)buying local produce is good, it does cut down on transportation pollution. However, I don't believe that the pollution caused by transporting makes even a tiny impact compared to Ford Valdez oil tankers on the road with huge engines. (ok got sie tracked here, sory!)

4)I don't personally believe his figures. Sounds like hype to me put out by conventional farmers.

5)if more people buy organic then eventually market forces will be such that it will be worthwhile for small local farms like your contractor talks about to produce organic. If we continue to buy non-organic food then we are sending messages to the food producers and retailers that organic food isn't worth the expense or effort on their part.

6)organic is non-GM isn't it? Wish we had mandatory GM labelling here!

I don't think non organic is bad perse, I think organic as a concept is better though.

I agree with the man.
The food industry is a big dollar business.
Organic is growing in popularity and people are demanding it.
People could be paid off for a mark of organic.

I buy local prodcuce when ever I can.
Alot of it is not marked 'organic'.
But, alot of it actually is.

Everything I grow in my garden is organic, yet I could not sell it as such unless it had been approved.

Check your farmer's market.
People may have signs for 'natural' or 'no chemicals used' because they can not apply for organic status. (See Allison's post.)

Allison, where I live, IF we can get organic produce, it is a BIG difference in price.
Conventional carrots are 59 cents a pound.
Organic Carrots are $2.29 a pound.

I can see where it would be worth someone's time to fake organic status!
You may have cheap organic produce, but I wonder how much of the rest of the country does?
(We already know you live in "crunchy" heaven! ;)

I understand the importance of supply and demand and supporting the organic farmer, but I think it should be done in your community.

We do not follow a macrobiotic diet 100%, but I really like the principles.
Eat in season.
I feel it is important to eat foods from your area.
Here, when summer is at it's hottest, watermelons are ripe... the perfect cooling food...
Spring brings greens and chickweed and dandalions, perfect for spring cleaning. etc, etc,
I think it is very helpful to our bodies to consume what was grown near us.

Honey is a great example of this!
Raw local honey can help people with allergies.
Sort of a homeopathy effect.

And, I do not like the thought of my food traveling across the country, clean truck or not.
Rather have it local in a sanford and son truck (Which everyone around here seems to own! Dh drove his until it died. ;)

Hope

Which is the bigger concern...environment or health?

Buying local produce sprayed with chemicals IMO is not as healthy as buying organic. Yes, you can wash stuff, but I still think organice is safer (for my family) than eating produce that has been sprayed with chemicals and then washed.

Like someone else pointed out, buying organic creates the market too. I have seen organic produce really pop up around here -- big sections in regular grocery stores.

I don't know where he gets his stats from and I take stats like that with a grain of salt.

It doesn't seem very environmentally friendly to support the use of pesticides -- they are made somewhere and are somehow transported. I'm not a trucking expert, but wonder if transporting produce is worse than transporting pesiticides. ??? I guess it's not the same volume of transportation.

I am not the crunchiest person. I don't buy everything organic.

When I'm a guest at someone's house and they make a comment that they've tried to respect something about me (i.e. crunchiness), than I smile and say thanks...and will hold any differing opinions for another time. There is a time to be gracious and there is a time to discuss and enlighten.

Well, that's just my opinion.

Rondi

oops!
I want to clarify my post! :)

Right, local pesticide produce is NOT good for you!
Ick.
I live in farm country and it is scary watching pesticide planes fly overhead!!!

I was talking about local produce that may not legally be able to be legally called organic!

I was suggesting checking out local farmer's markets and local farms.

The local produce may not be in the grocery store yet, but it is probablly available!

We are an area full of farms, yet none of our local grocery stores carry anything grown locally! I am in North Carolina-We are one of the biggest farming states, yet you can not buy local produce in the grocery store! During strawberry season, we have a TON of strawberry farmers, yet all the berries in the grocery store are grown in California!!! Where the grocery store chains have deals with.
There was a big mess! The farmers are really mad about it, but can not compete with the giant farms.

Anyway,
We found a farm about 20 minutes from us that grew and sold organic berries! But, we had to look.

I meant seeking out local alternatives when you can, because supporting the small local farmer trying to grow naturally/organic can help them grow to be certified organic.

Sorry if I was unclear!
I have a habit of doing that!

Hope

Hey Beth,

I have a friend in Brookline who has a share in a farm. Here are the fuzzy details that I remember (so don't hold me to them). She told me that she gets it delivered for about $520. I think the share is supposed to feed 4 adults and the growing season is around 22 or 26 weeks. She's on vacation now but she promised to pass on the info to me later.

We are definitely interested. We went out to Drumlin Farm in Lincoln a couple of weeks ago and produce there was definitely cheaper than at B&C. Here's a link to Community supported agriculture CSA (http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa/csastate.htm).

Anyway, you might already know about this but I thought I'd pass it on. And if you do now of a CSA that delivers to Boston, please LMK. I think Lincoln is pretty but I don't want to drive out there all the time.

I will definitely look into this. We are in Belmont, so we're actually half way between Boston and Lincoln. Are you in Boston proper?

I'd love to take the kids out to a nice farm this weekend, provided the boys don't eat everything in sight. Last night they ate solidly between 7-9pm!:rolleyes:

PS Wanna get together sometime? It's *so* hard to get NE-based mamas together!

Originally posted by Beth
Wanna get together sometime? It's *so* hard to get NE-based mamas together!

Are you kidding?? You mean I'd have the chance to meet an AW mom in person?? Tell me when and where (and if I'm not working:wah:) and I'll be there. I live in Brighton so maybe we could meet up in Watertown. BTW, there's a Boston AP yahoo group. I haven't been to one of their meetings but you might be interested.

I really encourage everyone to read this book:
This Organic Life: Confessions of a surbanan homesteader.
It is absolutely fascinating, and offers an eye opening opinion on the benefits of eating locally. It completely changed my perspective on eating produce...(kind of like the first time I realized the conditions factory farmed animals live in and how that led to my becoming vegan).
Read it- you will love it!!!!!!!
The book examines issues like eating in season, the nutritional value???? of food that has traveled and been stored for weeks (as in little nutritional value, as well as little taste left), storing local foods for winter, and so much more (plus lots and lots of wonderful gardening stuff- she grows all of her own food on a little surbarban plot!!!. She also goes into how many local farmers are driven out of business by food trucked in from afar.

I have found that while there is little "certified organic" food grown locally in my area, there is lots of "chemical free" food grown by organic minded farmers who cannot afford the expense of getting the "certified organic" label. In addition, many of the other farmers at my farmer's market use integral pest management systems, where they use "organic" methods first, and only use pesticides as a last result and in the most minimal amounts...rather than routinely spraying all foods with lots of different pesticides. Farmers at our local farmer's market are often very willing to tell you what they have done to their crops, so you can make an educated decision whether to buy it.
So I frequently go these routes, in combination with organic foods, in the summer (as well as lots of stuff from my garden!!!)
But it is more difficult in the winter...there is no local food here. So I do buy all organic in the winter (and this winter, will consciously work on eating more in season foods). In the future, I hope to expand my garden to a four season garden with cold-frames and stuff, along with planting more "winter" foods such as potatoes, winter squash, carrots, etc.
Read the book!! It is incredible!! Christy

Well, October 21st, the new USDA regulations go into effect, and this question should 'theorectically' be answered. The national standards for organic food and the use of the term 'organic' on the label are as follows:
Food must be produced without the use of most conventional pesticides, petroleum based or sewage sludge based pesticides, bioengineering, or ionizing radiation. The product must be 95% organic to carry the organic label. For more on the USDA regulations visit www.usda.gov/nop.
I know that there is some opposition (or was) among organic farmers about the government stepping in in this way, but I don't know much about their arguments.
One other point..buying organic local is the best idea, obviously..I belong to our local CSA, coop and buy from a local organic chicken/beef/pork farmer (NOT veg here) and I can SEE the place where the plants and animals are raised. I guess the pesticides could be hidden around the corner, but I kinda doubt it. All the places that ship out their stuff are local to someone, right? It is always possible that someone is lying, but much of the time, people in the organic field buy into the whole lifestyle and I just don't feel like it's likely. I won't stop buying organic because of the possibility of someone lying. JMHO!
Bethany

While I agree that is definately better for you to eat organic, I do think that shipping does have a large environmental impact. It isn't just the fuel, it is the truck itself, the roads the noise pollution etc. And, as mentioned above, many local farmer may use pesticides, but only as a last resort. They are expensive, and the little guys don't have a lot of extra cash to throw around. We used to belong to a local CSA, but she stopped doing, so now I try and buy local, in season stuff. Organic is very limited where I live. It is very expensive and frankly it isn't very good because no one buys it and sits in the grocery store forever. I check out the roadside stands, alot of times people have stuff from their gardens and they aren't using pesticides. Also, by supporting the local farmer, we are helping to preserve what little greenspace is left around here. That is pretty important to me.

Beth have you checked out the farmers markets? I lived in Boston until 3 years ago and I used always shop the farmers markets. They usually had one or two organic farmers with booths there. I went to the one in Davis Square, but I think they have one in Arlington and Newton too.

I wanted to add a few things about the consequences of not eating locally.
A lot of organic food is grown in California. But now that the organic movement is getting so big and popular, many organic foods are also imported from other countries (especially in the winter months). I think we need to become conscious of what that entails. For example, if you are buying certified organic bananas, they are often grown in central american countries. If new fields are dug, then rainforest may be destroyed, local wildlife (monkeys, rare birds, etc) are displaced...they have less and less land to survive on. If the bananas are grown in fields already designated as farmland, then the rainforest just might be saved, but they are displacing local foods that were grown to feed native peoples. It is so sad that many children are starving...many mamas have so little to eat that they cease to even produce milk :( ...just so we can have "fresh" produce all winter long. And that is not even going into the environmental damage caused by trucking (or flying) this produce across many countries, then trucking it to all the local stores.
It is such a difficult decision. I love bananas...I cannot envision going through life never eating another banana. But I also need to be conscious of what eating a banana really means. I cannot blissfully think that "certified organic" =all good.
Maybe bananas will become an occasional treat...rather than an every single day staple as they are now. Maybe when our Ohio apples are ripe next month, I will choose apples over bananas.
Being conscious just fully helps me make the best possible decision!! Christy

I live in CA, and my understanding is that the organic produce industry here is subject to a great deal of inspection and regulation. I would definitely buy local whenever possible, I do so myself, but I rather doubt that only 1/2 of the CA produce sold as organic actually is, because there is testing for pesticides, soil testing, etc. Besides, most of the organic farms around here are small family farms (and on a irrelavent tangent, a lot of those families homeschool) and I would suppourt them over factory farms even if they were spraying!

Melissa