Bear with me here...I'm cringing at the thought of paying sales tax on this car last June, and then paying on another one, but if we sell the van within 60 days of buying another car we actually get a rebate on the tax paid on the car.

Anyway. Why would I sell a van I bought one year ago? Well, because it (2001 Odyssey) absolutely bites in the snow and now, the mud. When I say bites, I mean, I feel anxious about getting up or down the mountain safely, which is what happened with the truck, and why I bought the van in the first place. And I have gotten stuck in my driveway twice. Although the other reason for the van was because we really wanted a third row seat for: a) our dog (which seems silly, but she's old and won't stay in the back of the wagon, and anyway when we go on long trips the back is filled, so she is squished on the seat between the 2 kids), b) when my folks or ILs come visit we can all pile in one car, and I can pick them up at the airport and they don't have to rent a car - so far we've used this 2x and will 2x this year, c) more space for long road trips (haven't taken one since we got the van).

Also, we have already busted a spring and strut on the van. We are afraid it is going to be completely trashed from our rough road up the mountain in another year or two. We feel we'd be much better off with something with heavy duty suspension...and like we've learned our lesson, we really want AWD even if everyone says you don't NEED it up here.

So...here's the plan. We paid $7300 for the van, which was low because it has 130k miles and the transmissions are notorious for problems. It now has a brand spankin' new tranny. I think it is worth around $8500 now, with that done. For around $4000 we could get a Subaru Outback wagon with around 100k miles on it off of craigslist - there are scads of them.

I would inherit our 2006 Outback, with around 35k miles on it, and Matt would use the older Outback. AND - here's the kicker, he wants to use another $1000 to buy a dirt bike. Yes, a dirt bike. He could commute in it and get 70-80 mpg or better. NOT in winter - but for April, May and June, and again in September, October and probably part of November depending on weather, he could use it, and those months we'd save $70 a month in gas at $3.20 a gallon - obviously more if gas goes up to $4/gal. So it would take 3 years to pay back the cost of the bike. I feel it would be safe because he would wear a full face helmet and all, and because he can commute completely via back roads, dirt roads. If we were talking asphalt I'd be freaking out.

That would leave us with around $3000 to pay down debts with...we're still deciding whether to pay off the 06 Outback first or start chunking down on the HEL, but either way - it would free up some cash.

What do you think? We'd lose the space of the van, which kills me especially as summer rolls around - I would rather keep it for now and sell it in August. But our only other options are to get an SUV with a 3rd row, or a crew cab truck, and either of those would kill us on gas mileage (not to mention we couldn't get one for $4000 that was in any sort of decent shape). We just sold our 88 Toyota so I'm also cringing about losing the space for things like plywood and wood, but we have friends with trucks, or realistically can rent a truck. I'm not sure it makes sense to have the van just for those occasional times we need to haul stuff.

(BTW we got $1200 for our 88 Toyota, we paid $750 for it!)

My van is having transmission trouble again, as we approach 100K, and it had a new tranny at around 50K, so I went and looked at a lovely used F250 crew cab. uh, I vote one of those. I couldn't believe how much room they had in that cab (with 4 full size real doors). I could easily fit my 6 and the two dogs! She was a beauty and I want her.

My van is having transmission trouble again, as we approach 100K, and it had a new tranny at around 50K, so I went and looked at a lovely used F250 crew cab. uh, I vote one of those. I couldn't believe how much room they had in that cab (with 4 full size real doors). I could easily fit my 6 and the two dogs! She was a beauty and I want her.

That is another option on the table...just really want to keep it at our under the cost of the Odyssey...and if I got a truck I'd have to seriously consider a diesel for running biodiesel. I'll be doing significant driving for my work (reimbursed at 47c/mile but still - the better mileage I get, the more $ in my pocket) so that would mean me driving the truck 2-3 days a week.

But hmmm...I dunno. It's a tough call. A crew cab truck would give us all the function of the van but be built for our roads. Added bonus, the Ford dealership is 10 miles away for repairs (e.g. the Honda, we can get some work done locally but big things have to go an hour away).

Bear with me here...I'm cringing at the thought of paying sales tax on this car last June, and then paying on another one, but if we sell the van within 60 days of buying another car we actually get a rebate on the tax paid on the car.

Anyway. Why would I sell a van I bought one year ago? Well, because it (2001 Odyssey) absolutely bites in the snow and now, the mud. When I say bites, I mean, I feel anxious about getting up or down the mountain safely, which is what happened with the truck, and why I bought the van in the first place. And I have gotten stuck in my driveway twice. Although the other reason for the van was because we really wanted a third row seat for: a) our dog (which seems silly, but she's old and won't stay in the back of the wagon, and anyway when we go on long trips the back is filled, so she is squished on the seat between the 2 kids), b) when my folks or ILs come visit we can all pile in one car, and I can pick them up at the airport and they don't have to rent a car - so far we've used this 2x and will 2x this year, c) more space for long road trips (haven't taken one since we got the van).

Also, we have already busted a spring and strut on the van. We are afraid it is going to be completely trashed from our rough road up the mountain in another year or two. We feel we'd be much better off with something with heavy duty suspension...and like we've learned our lesson, we really want AWD even if everyone says you don't NEED it up here.

So...here's the plan. We paid $7300 for the van, which was low because it has 130k miles and the transmissions are notorious for problems. It now has a brand spankin' new tranny. I think it is worth around $8500 now, with that done. For around $4000 we could get a Subaru Outback wagon with around 100k miles on it off of craigslist - there are scads of them.

I would inherit our 2006 Outback, with around 35k miles on it, and Matt would use the older Outback. AND - here's the kicker, he wants to use another $1000 to buy a dirt bike. Yes, a dirt bike. He could commute in it and get 70-80 mpg or better. NOT in winter - but for April, May and June, and again in September, October and probably part of November depending on weather, he could use it, and those months we'd save $70 a month in gas at $3.20 a gallon - obviously more if gas goes up to $4/gal. So it would take 3 years to pay back the cost of the bike. I feel it would be safe because he would wear a full face helmet and all, and because he can commute completely via back roads, dirt roads. If we were talking asphalt I'd be freaking out.

That would leave us with around $3000 to pay down debts with...we're still deciding whether to pay off the 06 Outback first or start chunking down on the HEL, but either way - it would free up some cash.

What do you think? We'd lose the space of the van, which kills me especially as summer rolls around - I would rather keep it for now and sell it in August. But our only other options are to get an SUV with a 3rd row, or a crew cab truck, and either of those would kill us on gas mileage (not to mention we couldn't get one for $4000 that was in any sort of decent shape). We just sold our 88 Toyota so I'm also cringing about losing the space for things like plywood and wood, but we have friends with trucks, or realistically can rent a truck. I'm not sure it makes sense to have the van just for those occasional times we need to haul stuff.

(BTW we got $1200 for our 88 Toyota, we paid $750 for it!)

Hate to tell you this, dirt roads are way more dangerous than pavement! Not for the cars, but for he gravel.

I say get rid of the van, I think you will be happier if you do.

My top vote is a king cab diesel you can use biodiesel in.

2nd, I vote for the Subaru.

I'd sell the car in the Spring when people forget it won't work in the winter. :D

ETA: I vote for the truck because I think you will need a truck in a year or two and have to go through all of this again. :)

Dirt roads are not more dangerous in this case - this is not loose gravel road. It's packed dirt (I'm sure there is a more technical term!). And he'd get a dirt bike...not a motorcycle made for paved roads. Grippy tires and all that. Kwim? He's looked into this and I do trust him; he's not a risk taker.

LOL...you may have convinced me about the truck. Stacy, that is what dh said - sell the van in spring!

The thing is, to get a diesel king cab with around 100k miles, we'd need to spend more like $14k (says dh, I haven't had time to research, but again, I believe him).

ETA: Also the van would be okay/fine for people like the folks we bought it from, people who live on paved roads. We have, every single trip, 8 miles of dirt to travel down, then back up a mountain. It just can't handle that. On paved roads the van drives like a dream!

I think a biodiesel truck is a great idea.:)

I'm thinking more about the dirt bike. A few thoughts:
Are they road legal? When I was a kid they weren't, but obviously times change.
Dirt bikes are really rough on roads and the environment and honestly they piss a lot of people off. Riding them on your own land is one thing, but they spook animals and throw rocks. You may want to consider the impact that will have on your relationship with any neighbors, no matter how far away they live.:lol:
I'm sure you guys have thought it through, those would just be my concerns. Funny, safety isnt one of them. I'm sure that was one of M's first thoughts. I think men think "I need to first convince my wife how safe this is.":lol: before anything else.

You guys have so many decisions, it's great that you take the time to think about them.:)

I think a biodiesel truck is a great idea.:)

I'm thinking more about the dirt bike. A few thoughts:
Are they road legal? When I was a kid they weren't, but obviously times change.
Dirt bikes are really rough on roads and the environment and honestly they piss a lot of people off. Riding them on your own land is one thing, but they spook animals and throw rocks. You may want to consider the impact that will have on your relationship with any neighbors, no matter how far away they live.:lol:
I'm sure you guys have thought it through, those would just be my concerns. Funny, safety isnt one of them. I'm sure that was one of M's first thoughts. I think men think "I need to first convince my wife how safe this is.":lol: before anything else.

You guys have so many decisions, it's great that you take the time to think about them.:)

Thanks. :)

I think we are um, talking about different things. He's not gonna do motocross. :lol: He is just going to ride a small motorcycle made for dirt roads (knobby tires) on the back (dirt) roads to his work. This is NOT what we're talking about: Dirt Bike Magazine (http://www.dirtbikemagazine.com/ME2/Default.asp) though it may be a similar *bike.* But he won't be doing THAT on it. Or I'll kill him. LOL!

How could a small motorcycle have more impact on the road than driving a car on it? How could it be tough on the environment if they get 80 mpg and you're driving it instead of a car? He's not going to be riding through the woods on it. Kwim?

Anyway that's just the side trip. ;) The big question is what to replace the van with! If only I could get a decent, diesel 4wd truck with a crew cab for $9000.

But the motorcycle question was *driven* by the environment issue, the gas mileage issue. It is not something he'd choose to do if it made a big impact on the roads. I can't see how it spooks an animal more than a car? I really feel like either I'm missing something big, or we're talking about two different things.

edited to condense my overly-coffee-fueled response...also re: street legal, I'm not sure, but they're okay on the dirt roads for sure, and he will only be on the "real" road for 1/4 mile so I think he should be fine. Good question for me to ask him though. I know we had a $50 dirt bike in Alaska and it had a license plate. :)

Sorry I mentioned the bike.;)

I'll just stick with my first thought - I think a biodiesel truck is a great idea.:)

We live in the country and I didn't even bat an eye at the dirt bike suggestion. Just par for the course. Here, however, once into the main area there's a major road that's like playing bumper cars. People on cycles just take the back roads and avoid it. I think we have a much larger population though, so I totally dismissed any thoughts on the bike.

LOL - sorry Kaight! No I just didn't want you to think that he was going to be tearing up the place. And honestly - just want to KNOW if you think or have knowledge that a dirt bike on back roads is environmentally unsafe or unsound??? I mean - if so by all means let's discuss it. I didn't even think about that - just assumed that it must be lower-impact than a car.

I'd have a FIT if he wanted to do motocross (as you can see).

We're lucky that it's possible for him to go *entirely* to school on the back dirt roads. He has to cross one regular road, then basically 1/4 mile on a side road and he enters the school parking lot. It's a gorgeously scenic drive, too.

Sorry, Kaight, I didn't mean to be super defensive...I was googling and posting quickly and trying to figure out what exactly he IS talking about - make sense? I do NOT want this to be a purchase that ends up taking more of a toll on the environment. And even so I have serious concerns about the safety...but then I suppose it's really no more dangerous than driving a car. In fact the main road he has to take (or beat the heck out of the car on the back roads) is one that has a few accidents a year on it. (Nothing like when I lived in FL and the road I drove daily to the kids' school had an accident *every morning while I was driving it,* but still.)

Another thought. I know it is almost always more expensive to own two vehicles than one, but now that gas is so high, I'm wondering if this is 100% true now. So, maybe do a spreadsheet on having a summer vehicle and winter vehicle. Dh and I did this for a few years since he had to drive up into the mountains and needed 4WD. However, we couldn't afford the gas of an SUV year-round. So, he drove it fulltime in the winter, and I drove it a couple of days a week in the summer. Otherwise, he drove our little fuel-efficient car which I drove fulltime in the winter.

I've been thinking about this a lot latey too since we have the van. I can fit 5 in a car, but not the whole family. I just haven't sat down to put the numbers on paper.

I think you need haul-ablility. LOL is that a word?

Also I think dh is finding rational ways to convince you to spend the extra on a big boy toy. Anyway, that's what I'd think if my dh suggested it and I could totally see him doing it and me saying, "ok". :lol:

Chase (my 17yo son) just did the second car thing. He ran the math and it was cheaper for him to have the second car. He got a toyota celica convertible for $700 to drive back and forth to work (I think it's late 90s w/75k). His F150 for "work" and hauling. He's got them both paid for though, so if he'd needed a loan, the math would be different.

Yes, waterlily, I think you are right. ;) FWIW I am *so* not into the bike, but if we have the debts paid off and have the cash ($1000) for the dirt bike, I'm like, whatever. ;) He just got (or is about to get) his dang tractor though and I think there is more going on than meets the eye with his need to continually focus on purchasing things, but I'm going to hold off saying a word because he has been doing a lot of good things in his life lately, too, and if a tractor and a dirt bike are going to make him that happy, as long as we don't get into debt, I'm okay with that.

Stacy, I like the idea of summer/winter vehicle. We have also talked about converting the 06 Subaru, which we have about $8k equity in, into two $4000 Subarus, and keeping the van. But, I don't know. We just had the 88 Toyota truck that we sold, sitting around for a year. I hate having a car and hardly using it. Summer is pretty short here. And part of the issue is just ruggedness, and the van doesn't have that. It seems like a lot to have $8k tied up in a van that we'll drive for 3 months, kwim?

I don't know. We went round and round last year about this, and I'd just about convinced myself that the van would be fine and would handle these roads. I was convinced from June through November that it was fine. Now it's mud season (almost) and I'm so tired of dealing with it being all skittery on the mountain that I'm over it.

Lots to think about. I'd like not to increase the amount of money we have tied up in vehicles. Right now we have the $8k equity in the Subaru, plus $9k owed on it, and $7k on the van (owed), $1k equity in it. The van loan is in with our HEL, so that's $18k or so we could cash out. $18k for definitely a minimum of 2 vehicles, 1 is not an option. I would prefer to keep the Subaru, it's already getting its personality and it's a great car, if that makes any sense whatsoever. We know it and it's been good to us, and we've owned it since we drove it off the lot. Remember we were gonna sell it last summer? That was the plan and it never happened because we couldn't let it go. It's too functional, even with the dang payment.

Okay now I need to be the one to stop obsessing and get to work! Ack! This is what happens when I have no deadlines. ;)

I was thinking about the 2 stroke aspect of the bike. I think more of them are 4 stroke, which is better. At least they aren't running wide open. I'm clearly no dirt bike expert:lol:, just had a brother with a dirt bike and a father that hated it.:)

I think if Matt was commuting on a 2 stroke bike, that would have a negative environmental impact. That's a lot of wasted fuel. It would be like riding a lawn mower to work, only faster.:lol:

Again, I think a truck is a great idea!:)

My issue with a 4wd truck is the gas mileage for a full sized crew cab truck just SUCKS. Matt said that the new Tacoma would get similar mileage to the Subaru and comes in full crew cab, but we can't afford a new truck.

My issue with the diesel 4wd is too much $.

Help?

Kaight - I am pretty sure he's talking 4-stroke. I can't imagine him wanting to use a 2-stroke engine. eta, There is always this plug-in, zero emissions dirt bike! Now Even Dirt Bikes Go Clean With Zero Emissions! - Ecofriend (http://www.ecofriend.org/entry/now-even-dirt-bikes-go-clean-with-zero-emissions/)

So the subaru is working for you, right? So that's a known in terms of what would work for your roads and the amount of driving you do.

Sell the van. Keep the 06 Subaru, buy another for Matt and borrow a truck when needed for now. You should be able to buy a decent outback (the unofficial state car of VT:) ) and pay off some debt or the tractor or whatever else you want. Because you'll have the tractor, you'll be able to maintain your driveway really well, that will help a little. It sounds like you still have a lot more dirt road that you don't have any control over but at least you know the subaru does well.

If you have friends with a truck and they don't mind sharing, use it.:) You fill the tank when you use it and you don't have anything invested in it. We have friends with a truck and I think they would be insulted if we bought a truck:lol:, they really want people to borrow it.

When you have people visit you could always borrow or rent a van. I would guess that would still be cheaper than owning another vehicle (tax, insurance,...). Maybe not.

We've always had one decent car and one beater. Rob has the worse car in the parking lot at work. But that thing's going to run another 200,000miles.:) It was great when we were in Boston, it never mattered if someone bumped into it or scratched it with a door. :)

Clearly I have way too much free time today. The kids are playing and I keep bouncing between here and paperwork I should be doing. I promise I won't keep throwing my 2 cents in here. :)

Yeah, see, I'm having seller's regret because we just sold the Toyota pickup and if we were getting rid of the van, I might have reconsidered that. Still it's not so much hauling that we need as it is capacity. My folks are weird and will balk about the cost of renting a car on top of the cost of airfare - they're coming in April and a big reason is because I can pick them up at the airport and they don't have to rent a car. Why that $200 or so makes or breaks their trip up here, I don't know.

What you're suggesting was our plan, till I started thinking about having a truck and having the best of all worlds in one vehicle. ;) Except for the cost. But $4kish Subarus are a dime a dozen on craigslist. We have always had 2-3 beaters, LOL, the Subaru was one of our first "nicer" cars. And that was our theory at that time, have it and the 88 Toyota - one really reliable, new car, and one beater. But the Toyota couldn't hold the kids and it needed attention we didn't have the know-how to give it, plus just wasn't practical (although it was a truck).

We were thinking of something like a Rav-4 with a 3rd row for a pinch, but only the newer ones have a 3rd row. A small SUV would be another option but why not a Subaru wagon in that case?

It's also entirely possible that we both have spring fever and that we need to just hang onto the van, get through mud season, and put studded tires on next year (selling these and the other 4 of them that are also studless on craiglist next fall). And that M will forget about his dirt bike once he gets busy on his tractor. ;)

Talked to Matt tonight.

He's talking about a low emission, 4 stroke extremely fuel efficient engine, larger than a typical dirt bike including huge knobby tires. Like this: 2008 Yamaha TW200 Home, information, info (http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelhome/10/home.aspx)

I showed him the Quantya and he thought it was way cool. :D It's silent - I have to admit the thought of gliding along the dirt roads with zero emissions and zero gasoline, on a motorcycle charged by my wind turbine and solar panels, is a very very appealing idea. But it is pricey.