or is it annoying?

I'm not asking for huggles or snuggles or asking people to ask me to stay. That's not what I'm getting at. :) I'm just wondering if it is even helpful to hear from people who don't have unsecured debt anymore.

I often wonder if it is helpful to hear from btdt (although admittedly not as far in debt as some are) or if it just seems like bragging.

I feel like I understand the problems, but don't want to come off as a person who just can't relate yk?

Arggg..ds needs the computer for school. I'm not sure if this is coming out right. I may have to clarify later.

I see it as very encouraging. We will be there by Aug. at the very latest and I can't wait.

I think it's the MOST helpful! To see someone who has gone through it and came out the other side unscathed and for the better inspires me even further!

Just because you are in a different place today than "last year" (whatever that means for you) doesn't mean you don't have vivid memories of what worked and what didn't. I've been criticized in the past for not being able to speak to something because of where we were at that time and it doesn't mean the years upon years of not being able to even make ends meet didn't happen.

Absolutely helpful.

i think it's totally reassuring and encouraging!!

Ok...cool.

I was just worrying that I was coming off as bragging. I just didn't want anyone to feel like I was kicking them when they were down if I talk about my vacation or something.

I think so highly of all of you in this forum.

And, by unsecured debt you mean credit cards? Does it or does it not include a vehicle payment?

Either way - can I pick your brain?

Once you get the credit cards paid off, how do you keep it so that you don't ever get into that position again?

We've paid them all off, but I need to keep them open in case we end up needing to travel unexpectedly for Jack or if something comes up with the house, kwim? But, I don't want to fall back on them for random things, either. (Even if it's groceries - we can make do and it's so easy to just charge some groceries here or there, yk?) And not only that, but what happens when you're in between that phase of having paid off your credit cards, but not yet having a cushion in the bank account (which is what we're working on now, but will obviously take some time to build up).

Anyway - I'd love to hear your input.

Ok...cool.

I was just worrying that I was coming off as bragging. I just didn't want anyone to feel like I was kicking them when they were down if I talk about my vacation or something.

I think so highly of all of you in this forum.



you had to have started somewhere, right? and paying down/off debt gives you bragging rights, IMO. i strive to be debt free and consider those who have BTDT to be a great resource!

And, by unsecured debt you mean credit cards? Does it or does it not include a vehicle payment?

Either way - can I pick your brain?

Once you get the credit cards paid off, how do you keep it so that you don't ever get into that position again?

We've paid them all off, but I need to keep them open in case we end up needing to travel unexpectedly for Jack or if something comes up with the house, kwim? But, I don't want to fall back on them for random things, either. (Even if it's groceries - we can make do and it's so easy to just charge some groceries here or there, yk?) And not only that, but what happens when you're in between that phase of having paid off your credit cards, but not yet having a cushion in the bank account (which is what we're working on now, but will obviously take some time to build up).

Anyway - I'd love to hear your input.

well...we don't have our cc paid off..but i put them in a ziploc bag with some water and put them in the freezer. if i need them...i have to thaw them...and they aren't there for a 'just b/c' reason when i'm at a store or whatever. i have to really think about if i want to use them. now the other problem lies in the fact that i have the card number memorized...so um..that doesn't help online. :lol:

oh and i definitely think a 'been there done that' voice is always welcome. if you come in here with your 'nanny nanny boo boo shame on you's" THEN we'll kick you in the rump!

I don't post much...pop in from time to time. Just wanted to say that it is very helpful to hear what has worked for others and what has not worked. If we were all in the same boat, then obviously changing things isn't working...so the more perspectives the better :-)

well...we don't have our cc paid off..but i put them in a ziploc bag with some water and put them in the freezer. if i need them...i have to thaw them...and they aren't there for a 'just b/c' reason when i'm at a store or whatever. i have to really think about if i want to use them. now the other problem lies in the fact that i have the card number memorized...so um..that doesn't help online. :lol:

Oh, man - I hear you there!!! The stored CC numbers are the worst for me.

I also have our mortgage insurance linked to one credit card, which I really should change to avoid that extra step. I'd rather have nothing on there at all.

I have heard the freezing idea. DH keeps all of the cards in his wallet (because they're way too much of a temptation for me at home online).

For avoiding cc debt, I love Dave Ramseys idea of doing whatever you can to save $1,000 cash that is very easily accesible but set aside for emergencies.
We did whatever it took to get it, and now if we need to use any of it we do whatever we can to top it off as soon as we can and it has indeed kept us out of cc debt.

And, by unsecured debt you mean credit cards? Does it or does it not include a vehicle payment?

Either way - can I pick your brain?

Once you get the credit cards paid off, how do you keep it so that you don't ever get into that position again?

We've paid them all off, but I need to keep them open in case we end up needing to travel unexpectedly for Jack or if something comes up with the house, kwim? But, I don't want to fall back on them for random things, either. (Even if it's groceries - we can make do and it's so easy to just charge some groceries here or there, yk?) And not only that, but what happens when you're in between that phase of having paid off your credit cards, but not yet having a cushion in the bank account (which is what we're working on now, but will obviously take some time to build up).

Anyway - I'd love to hear your input.

Well, I actually consider a car payment unsecured debt or at least debt I never want to have. That's not to say I haven't had it, but much of our preparation has been spent trying to avoid a car payment. Dh and I went rounds on this about monthly money out vs. buying a car every 3-6 years. Many variables go into this decision, but we came back to avoiding a car payment altogether and paying ourselves that car payment and purchasing outright.

As for avoiding CC debt, we do much as Julie did. We simply put them away. Reaching for them seemed like an obvious first choice, but if they aren't available, a person can often get creative. For a long time, we saw them as only to be used for reservations of some sort. Obviously, if there was no money there wasn't going to be a reservation. :) You have a different situation though. You have to have a monthly hotel reservation right?

So, I guess I'd just try to eek out $5-$10/day "somewhere" and use that as your travel money.

Clearly, when you sell your house, things will be different. However, that isn't happening right now, so you have to live day by day. That means not "living for when the money comes in." This is your reality now. No sense pining for what will happen. It will happen when it happens and a lesson will have been learned.

We have made some disasterous choices in the past and I've just tried to learn something from them and avoid repeating my mistakes over and over.

Sometimes a person is trying to avoid debt. Sometimes the focus is on increasing monthly income. Sometimes the focus is on reducing monthly expenditures. It's a juggle more than a balance sometimes.

For avoiding cc debt, I love Dave Ramseys idea of doing whatever you can to save $1,000 cash that is very easily accesible but set aside for emergencies.
We did whatever it took to get it, and now if we need to use any of it we do whatever we can to top it off as soon as we can and it has indeed kept us out of cc debt.

I think this is an excellent idea. We've done variations on that such as saving our tax refund, saving gift money, eliminating all subscriptions and extra services (including cell phones!), selling stuff, etc...

julie, if you call them, they will send you a new card with a new number. I accidentally misplaced mine in the house somewhere. I went ahead and got a new card, just in case.

julie, if you call them, they will send you a new card with a new number. I accidentally misplaced mine in the house somewhere. I went ahead and got a new card, just in case.

yea...i know..i was just kidding. i'm doing quite well with my temptations. i usually just sell something if i'm getting a hankering to buy something out of our budget.

exactly Stacy. And, you know, I've been doing a lot of reflection the last couple days - everyone's been moping around, quiet, sicky - and the new year always spurs conversations of our short term and long term goals. Lots of time to think. What I've concluded is that as difficult as this is (paying two mortgages, power, taxes, and homeowners) and as much as I'd never recommend it for someone :smirk: - I also have learned SO much from it. I've reprioritized things, spending in particular. Somehow this health stuff with Jack and the financial crunch simultaneously, almost, has put things in perspective for us all - what is really at the root of happiness, what need is, what we want to accomplish in our lives.

And, ultimately, I've learned - just because you have it today, doesn't mean you'll have it tomorrow. While we can't always live our lives for the worst possible case scenario, we can't live under the assumption that tomorrow will be the same as today and we should anticipate as much as we can.

Now, what that means for each family will vary - but I can see that over time we have different future needs. Right now, we need that $1K in savings to avoid credit card usage. In the next year (PLEASE, God, let that mean our house will be sold by the end of '08) we need to start thinking about the major home systems that could potentially go out (we'll need a new roof in three or four years, maybe a new furnace in five, etc). And, somewhere down the road, we'll need to worry about retirement, and if I let that time go by (I always say when SDD has "outgrown" child support, we'll apply all of that to our 401K and not miss it) - but with the matching DH's firm does, we're missing out on tens of thousands of dollars if we wait for that - free money!

Occasionally I get a retail bug - and I feel like I "have" to have something. But, I've learned (from Julie, really) that if I can't replace it, I will keep it - but that if I can, I'll sell things and buy whatever it is that I "need" at that moment. It's helped a lot. I have far less attachment to material things now. But, the one thing I really miss - way more than shopping gymboree sales or gymbucks redemption or Coach bags? I miss travel. SO much. It's SUCH a part of me. I have the itchiest feet EVER. So, that's definitely going to shift into a priority for us - when the house sells, of course - but never on credit. We've always paid cash for our vacations and will continue to do so.

So, this year's tax refund (assuming there is a substantial one) will go to taxes and insulation and a cushion in our bank account. But, it will buy peace of mind as well.

Savings. That is how you keep from falling back onto credit cards. We tried for years and years and never could make it (we would get out of debt only to have something crazy and unexpected and bang, right back in again) until we had savings. DH and I only carry one low limit credit card, and we pay it off every month. If something crazy comes up, we dip into savings but then cut our spending back the next month or two until it is built back up.

Well, of course :)

But, what about that time between paying it off and accumulating savings?

Well, I hope people without CC debt are welcome here. I know that the board is far more about saving money and getting out of debt than it is about simplifying, but it is still my "spot" at Amity's.

I think auto loans can be considered secured or unsecured, and that it's murky. For instance, we have a car loan. The car is worth 10K more than we owe on it, so it that way it is secured. Car debt can also be secured debt in that a vehicle can be repossessed (a word I had to look up the spelling on, LOL). On the other hand, dealerships will put people into loans that roll over old car debt and they start out upside down on the loans. That can't be secured debt.

We've decided to sell our paid for trailer and our financed SUV, and to buy a smaller, more fuel efficient car with cash. The SUV is financed at 1%, which is a steal, but we don't need to SUV if we don't keep the trailer. If we can sell by the end of March we can save an extra $6000 next year alone, plus the fuel savings.

At that point we will have a first mortgage, and nothing else.

Well, I think if you set a realistic budget, you can build savings pretty fast. I know our big problem was setting a budget that we really couldn't stick to. A lot of "unexpected" stuff really isn't that unexpected (car repairs, medical bills, things that only come around once a year like car licensing). But since we didn't HAVE to pay for it we didn't set aside for it. After that is all accounted for a good tax return or other windfall should go a long way. Or a large leap in income. That is what happened for us. Dh more than doubled his salary (and it will double again in the next couple years).

Everything seems so much easier than it really is though... lol I am not at all saying it isn't.

Well, I think if you set a realistic budget, you can build savings pretty fast.

Ha.

Ha.

LOL I do. The KEY though is, you have to make enough money. I mean, we tried for years and we figured out, um yeah, we are simply NOT making enough money. No budget can work that out unless you have a lot of other stuff going for you. That meant school (and school debt, of which we have tons so I am not trying to come off as in perfect shape by any means) and a huge change in plans to put us where we are now. I am a little bit obsessed with savings at this point because you are absolutely right, any thing can change at any time.

Oh and I am a big fan of saving for stuff, saving for retirement and paying off debt all at once. The Simple Dollar (http://www.thesimpledollar.com) blog had a great article awhile back on which route was best (getting completely out of debt and then saving, or saving and paying off debt...) and there is definitely an argument for both. In our case our debt is all at 0% interest except our student loans which are at about 4%, so I go for the paying off and saving at the same time.

Speaking on behalf of a lot of the people here, though, most families simply *cannot* save - and it's not a matter of living beyond their means or making more money, it's just what they're going through at that time.

Now, in our case, DH has a good salary but obviously we had no idea what Jackson's needs were going to be or that the housing market would bottom out and suck a black hole into the economy. Our budget has zero to do with that, and we DO have a realistic budget or we wouldn't have our bills paid and our credit cards paid off.

Yeah, but again, that's assuming that people have the kind of extra income you guys have - and most don't.

I miss travel. SO much. It's SUCH a part of me. I have the itchiest feet EVER. So, that's definitely going to shift into a priority for us - when the house sells, of course - but never on credit. We've always paid cash for our vacations and will continue to do so.


You know I totally understand this. Travel is such an important part of my life and the lives of my kids. Each time I considered having a child, whether or not we could still afford to travel was one of the top factors in our decision (aside from the obvious!:)).

It has always been budgeted in whenever possible. Fortunately, we have been able to do it even when it was just going to visit our parents who put us up for free.

I definitely now feel the pinch of 6 airline tickets (gulp!), but the rewards for our family abundant. A life without borders is quite an education.

Speaking on behalf of a lot of the people here, though, most families simply *cannot* save - and it's not a matter of living beyond their means or making more money, it's just what they're going through at that time.


ITA. We seriously started in $5 increments. Also, during those times, I recognized the need to increase our monthly income not necessarily cut more yk? You can only do so much.

You know, that's a great point (parent travel). There ARE ways to enjoy the things that are low-cost. Every vacation doesn't have to be Costa Maya ;)

(on my brain since our childless friends just returned from there)

We used to make work trips into mini vacations and had a lot of fun in places like Osh Kosh, WI or Oxford, MS. :) The kids saw a lot of the midwest/south in that way ;)

I think we'll plan an extra day in Chicago one of these trips and take the kids with us again - we have our Shedd membership to use and there are some fantastic museums.

But, now I really want to go back to San Diego! Thanks a lot :lol:

You know, that's a great point (parent travel). There ARE ways to enjoy the things that are low-cost. Every vacation doesn't have to be Costa Maya ;)
Amen!
...

But, now I really want to go back to San Diego! Thanks a lot :lol:

:lol: It is a treasure for sure.

When your house sells--I bet you'll do what you can to add just a little to your monthly budget, and then you'll have a LOT of money to use to save and pay off debt. That will be great!

Until then--I agree that you do what you can to just put away as much as you can each week.

Carl and I worked very hard to pay off all of our debt (my school loans and my credit card debt) in the first 2 years of our marriage. We were fortunate that he had no debt of any kind. Our first car was a wedding present from his parents. We purchased our minivan with cash. That meant we couldn't get the newest model--even though we could have afforded the monthly payments. We went with an older model with more miles on it so that we could pay cash. We also looked for 8 months before we finally found one we wanted to get.

My point is, we've been debt-free for 7 years now. Having no debt has been such a gift to us. I'm not ever tempted to spend beyond our means, because it's so freeing not to have a huge debt to pay every month. It becomes a way of life. It will for you, too, once you have had a little time without using credit cards. You'll get there.

Heather, you also bring up a good point. Not sure if you meant this exactly, but we've always strived to live below our means. When we were considering a mortgage, we were approved for something like $225,000 (5 years ago). Puh...leeease! No way were we going to go into debt that far. It just seemed crazy.

We did originally increase our top price when we discovered that everything in the "we want to spend this much" bracket was too small and run down for our family of 5. However, we ended up buying the cheapest house at that price break. I can't tell you how happy I am that we didn't buy the "fancy" house for $12,000 more. That house has been a lemon for the people who bought it. :(

This is kind of going off on a tangent now. Sorry! It just made me think of some more things that have helped over the years. BTW-We got saddled with a mortgage for 18 months once too when the housing market tanked. That stunk so badly. I feel for all of you going through this.

Yeah - definitely choosing a home within/beneath our means helped. (Of course, if we hadn't, we probably wouldn't have qualified to carry two mortgages so I don't know if that helped much or not in our case) - but I keep reminding myself that we had no idea the market would swing this way, or that Jack would have a medical issue crop up within weeks of closing.

In hindsight, I'm glad we didn't go with the brand new house that we looked at - but, you know, we're really happy in this house - it's given us an amazing amount of family space and has really helped us through the emotional stress and even the financial. Having a backyard is SUCH a blessing for our kids. And, having a home where visitors have space to come and sit means we stay home more - which is cheaper ;) It's less tempting to have birthday parties out of the house or to just go and do ANYTHING to not have to be in the house.

Heather - it sounds like you guys got a fantastic start in your marriage. That IS such a blessing! We do have to remind ourselves of how far we've come in a relatively short amount of time, to the credit of an education. This is just a setback - but also a really valuable education in what is important, and I'm sure some day I will also look back on this time with a different light.

LOL I do. The KEY though is, you have to make enough money. I mean, we tried for years and we figured out, um yeah, we are simply NOT making enough money. No budget can work that out unless you have a lot of other stuff going for you.

This was my big realization in 2007. Despite Matt's modest salary increases each year, costs of food and gas and everything else have gone up to the point where it's simple math: we are simply not making enough money on his salary, no matter how little we buy or how frugal we are.

I know I'm not the only person on this board who's struggled to live frugally while facing the reality that there is simply no way I can pay off debt or not get into it, never mind save, or look to the future - nope, I have just been surviving day to day the best I can, which has meant leaning on credit cards at times.

For me that is the only place I get ruffled. I *know* many of you have been where we are or worse. But it's really easy to rattle off zero-based budgets that include travel and savings, yadda yadda yadda - if you're making a nice, cushy income. Try making that budget work on a poverty-level income. It is going to fall apart. Even cut down to bare essentials, it is not going to work.

Anyway, I don't mean to whine or criticize. I think everyone here *has* been sensitive to the fact that some of us just aren't making as much money as others, so the juggling really does involve leaving a few balls in the air at any given time, and it gets so tiring at times that sometimes we just walk away and let all the balls fall to the ground. I just wanted to point out what I see as a big disconnect for me, occasionally. That, for me, is the only place I sometimes feel a little bristly. It's not that I think those who are out of debt are bragging. Far from it. I just see sometimes people make assumptions that others are making enough income and just not budgeting/spending it well. It's judgment, when it creeps into people's posts without them realizing, that gets me a little defensive. (And yeah, I could definitely stand to examine why it gets me defensive. ;) )

I hope this comes across in the spirit in which it's meant, which is constructive. I value and respect every person on this board.

Far from it. I just see sometimes people make assumptions that others are making enough income and just not budgeting/spending it well. It's judgment, when it creeps into people's posts without them realizing, that gets me a little defensive.

If you ever feel that way about my posts please call me on it. I do not intend to come across that way at all.

I absolutely know what you mean. If the money isn't there, it isn't there! It just isn't. No amount of wishing is going to make it appear. I would hope no one would take away from my posts that I think you should live on beans to end up in the black.

Sometimes a little risk is worth it yk? If we hadn't bought X or waited until exactly the right time, it may never have happened. Nothing in life or finances is every perfect all the time IME. I was actually thinking about you last night lauren. You and your dh are the perfect examples of people who take a risk and make it work. If you had planned and planned and planned to the extreme, you might still be in Florida today waiting for the "perfect" time and "perfect" amount of money. What a gift to be a person who is able to take a risk! How many people in this world stay paralized waiting for perfection.


As for travel, since I brought it up, somehow it has just worked out for me/us. It was very easy when I was single and only had to come up with one plane ticket. It's gotten harder over the years and I readily admit that for several years my in-laws bought most of our tickets (when we were a family of 3 and 4) and paid the way nearly 100% for our vacations with them. We also borrowed $11,000 from them once. Dh and I hated it. We vowed to never do it again and we have not. This was during the time we were saddled with an empty house/mortgage for 18 months.

Dh does have a good income. He has had one for about 14 months. Before that, we were hanging on, but always sliding down that slippery slope, but holding on for dear life with the tips of our fingernails.

Heather, you also bring up a good point. Not sure if you meant this exactly, but we've always strived to live below our means.

That's exactly what I meant. After we paid off our debt, we didn't start spending more money--we saved what we had been using to pay off our debt.

Yes, I know that there are people who can't just change their spending and suddenly be out of debt; you do have to have money coming in, too. I hope I don't come across as judgmental on that issue ever. I know that we have been so very blessed financially, and I don't ever pretend otherwise.

Well we don't have credit card or line of credit debt anymore, but we still live poor. Because we still are. My husband makes $16 an hour and our mortgage is $1200. We have four children who eat alot. We don't travel.

The money we put towards credit cards before now goes to higher priced gas and food. Clothing is still something we don't pay for because we get hand-me-downs or go to a local community service organization that has a clothing bank where we take what we need and return our stuff when we're done too.

We don't look like we're on the poverty line, but on paper we are. We have a zero-based budget in that it's all basically spent before we get it. If I pick up a day of work here and there, that money goes to extras like Christmas presents or school supplies. We probably do need more money, but lowering our expenses to almost nothing is what gets us by until I can start regular earning again.

Kerri

I know I'm not the only person on this board who's struggled to live frugally while facing the reality that there is simply no way I can pay off debt or not get into it, never mind save, or look to the future - nope, I have just been surviving day to day the best I can, which has meant leaning on credit cards at times.

We are close to that, but I definitely see places we can make changes, it will just take planning. Oh, and getting dh to stick to it too. Granted, almost all of our cc debt has been house fixing things and dental related, but had we an emergency fund set aside in the first place, there would be no cc debt. I need to sit down and really look at the cc's, put them in order of which to pay off first, and then just do it, rolling over the payment to the next card, kwim? And then take dh's cards away. Mostly he gets in a hurry to get house things done, whereas I'm fine with waiting. That's why my kitchen still sucks. There are things that seem like a good idea to plop on cc, like insulation for our outer walls. He found a place that'll do it for something like $1000, all of our outside walls. We can get a rebate from the gas company (or the state?) for about $300 of that, plus who knows how it'll effect our heating/cooling bills. But if that $1000 is on a cc, will it balance out?

Anyway, I don't mean to whine or criticize. I think everyone here *has* been sensitive to the fact that some of us just aren't making as much money as others,

I'm fairly sure that my dh makes considerably less than all of my friends. Considerably. And I never feel belittled, or anything but supported and respected, if that makes sense. It's funny, because here at S&T, mostly I look at everyone as making the same income as us, even though I know it's not true!

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: Love you, Lauren. Love and so much admiration and respect. :hug:

Yeah, but again, that's assuming that people have the kind of extra income you guys have - and most don't.

:agreed:

we can budget all we want to...but unless i have 3+ births a month and at least two shoots a month, we *do not make ends meet*...budget smudget in that situation. if 2 + 2 equals 1 on any given month, we sink.

i wish i understood and better appreciated the extra income dh had when he had it. we have learned the hard way that pride is problematic in it's own way...and i do think that a painful lesson in pride was in store for us with the job loss we're still reeling from nearly 2 years later. (i'm all about trying to see the lessons in things...like stacy said, so as not to avoid making the same mistakes again...)

(all that said...keep the "find a new job" vibes coming...dh redid his resume' this week and with the new year will start up the search again in earnest...he's going to try to go back into his old field which could be a significant jump in earnings for our family...)

Just wanted to emphasize, I'm talking about a sort of mild undercurrent that I have felt from time to time, and not specific to any one person. Just sometimes people kind of jumping in assuming stuff that may or may not be true, kwim? I think it is the nature of ANY board that deals with financial stuff, and I think this board has done *amazingly* well at respectfully and nonjudgmentally offering advice while still, you know, offering advice! And support. :) It's a hard line to walk, and the mamas here do it beautifully. I don't mean to say anything but that. Some of the things I've felt subtly may be my own extreme sensitivity, too.

If it was not for this board, we wouldn't be where we are. Yes, we are risk-takers, and not thrifty by nature. We've forced ourselves to pare things down to the barest of minimums to get by for the past ten years, to one degree or another at various times. The kind of "tight" I mean is: you sit down and list out only your most essential bills, and you see that you have $150 left over each month for food, gas and clothing. Yes, circumstances and decisions left you in that place. Many of the circumstances may be out of your control. But the fact is: you're there now. How do you make it work on $150 a month? You can't. You know you're going to incur debt. The question is just, how much, and how quickly. We did the best we could...and I'm incredibly grateful to have had this board through that, because it constantly made me question whether those bills really were at rock bottom, whether I could do better on food budgeting, whether I could do without something I thought I had to have. This board and the mamas who post here regularly, including the ones without unsecured debt!, are the reason we got through that time as well as we did.

Anyway, a big ramble, all to say, I was trying to articulate something and not sure I hit it right. I don't want to downplay the incredible amount of support there is here. But it's almost impossible to share information on finances and budget without there being *some* judgment inherent in people's replies. That's all.

i was just having this discussion with one of my good friends. we were talking about how there is such a difference when you have to live temporarily like that...tight like you're describing mamabear...vs living like that forever. i think that is where the mind is so important. b/c you could just incur debt and not be mindful that you're going to have to pay it back...just live for today...or you can say "man..this sucks...we're carrying two mortgages...or we're waiting until the baby is 4 so i can go back to work..or blah blah blah...but i'm going to live frugally and incur the least amount of debt i can". not that you're living for 'whenever this happens'...but knowing that this is temporary and you're working towards a goal. having a goal and having a plan i guess is what i'm trying to say.

we have been in so many different financial situations...we've been in the place where you had to pay for your groceries on credit b/c there was no more money and we have been in the place where there is extra to get nice things.

i have no idea if that ramble made sense at all...:lol:

having a goal and having a plan i guess is what i'm trying to say.


YES~doing it with intention and being careful about it is what matters.

Yeah, I'm hearing you both.

I totally agree, Lauren, and know very well what it's like wait for a publisher's check to come in, wait for the issue to go to print, etc. It's literally feast or famine in a freelancer's world. And for me, it was very easy to treat myself when the feast came in. Or, to anticipate that check and say "well, I'll just put this on the credit card because I'm getting a check when the October issue prints" and then that check went to the credit card - or something else came up in the middle of it. NOT that you do that - by any means - just remembering those days all too well.

I think that's a mentality that we got into in our lives as well - that whole, "We've been deprived for so long, we deserve to ENJOY this money - you can't take it with you," yadda yadda.

As for what Julie's saying, in the case of, say, Stephanie and myself, we hope/pray/know this situation isn't forever. (Not speaking for Stephanie, but I know they're transitioning as well.) And, we do have to make good decisions during this time. No, we can't save what we'd like. It's just not there to save. And, yes, we could eat beans every night for dinner and maybe shave a bit off the grocery budget, but to the demise of our health and well-being. (Gosh, and our sanity!) But, if we get a windfall/return/sale/whatever - yeah, we are WAY more likely to stick it in the bank now than start planning what we're going to spend it on.

yea....it's so interesting to see friends of mine who are constantly talking about how they have no money...the wife 'has' to work but doesn't want to..etc etc. and any windfall they get...they go buy a big screen tv, or a new videocamera or a huge wall entertainment unit, or new bamboo floors. (trying not to judge...but wondering??) thinking...there is another way you know...but it's going to take sacrifices. i just can't stand to hear someone complain but not be willing to make any changes to make it be different. it's talking out of both sides of your mouth. yes...there are some people who can have their cake and eat it too...but for the most part...it's a give and take. maybe you can't have brand new furniture if you want to be debt free...maybe you have to wait until you've saved for a year to go buy a new sofa. maybe you can't go buy a new car...you need to just 'pretend' you have a car payment and save up to buy a new one when you're more financially stable. i fall prey to it all to often as well..but it's the gotta have it now of our society.

yea....it's so interesting to see friends of mine who are constantly talking about how they have no money...the wife 'has' to work but doesn't want to..etc etc. and any windfall they get...they go buy a big screen tv, or a new videocamera or a huge wall entertainment unit, or new bamboo floors.

Yep. It's like the "how can you buy a house in So Cal without making 100,000 a year?" threads. You can do it, but you have to make choices. Me being home is of much more value to us than a new car, besides, I like my dirty, beat up 99 Ram. Funny thing is, my close friends don't spendspendspend either, they just *shrug* live like me. Frugal, thrifty, easy on the planet.

Lauren, I didn't mean to sound like I was disagreeing with you, honest. Before I was married, I made $100 a week, and was supposed to make more money on commission. My rent was $475/month, and I barely managed to squeak by every month on whatever I had left from my last commission. That's when the student loan fell by the wayside, I had to eat! I lived about 3/4 mile from work, and when my car needed work, there were days I walked home instead of taking the bus, because then I had money for cigarettes and beer! :lol:

I love the choices you've made, with the property and animals. You're one of the reasons I want chickens, and one of the reasons I think I could actually do it.

i also always have to remember that i NEVER know the ENTIRE story in people's life situations.

Yeah, but again, that's assuming that people have the kind of extra income you guys have - and most don't.

Well, I hope this wasn't directed at me. LOL Because as you know, we have a very modest income IMO. We hope that changes for us in the next couple years but right now, we are still squarely middle class. We just built our life around a $25K a year income, and now that it is $50K it seems like a lot. I sit around with IRL friends who tell me how rich I am, and I am like whoa... hold on, you guys make more than we do!

I have learned from those who have been there are are debt free. Their suggestions have helped me so much......challenged me and pushed me in many ways.

We'll have the CC debt paid off in two months. I'm bumping up to full-time next year, which will make us 100% debt free in just a couple years. I don't think we'd have even started on this path had I not read posts from those who already walked that path. (or who were a lot further in their walk than me)

I don't see it as bragging at all. I'd love to see more details shared! It has been in the details where I have gained the wisdom needed to get where we are now.....and we still have a ways to go.

Michelle

i also always have to remember that i NEVER know the ENTIRE story in people's life situations.

AMEN!!!!

One example: People look at our net income and wonder why we have struggled, even with our very frugal living....but they have no idea what kind of medical expenses we pay each month.

Michelle

Eek, I'm sorry. I was coming back to say that I think a lot of my perceptions right now are about where I am in my head, and nothing else. And that I think I just muddled things up trying to explain my thoughts.

I wasn't directing anything at anybody in particular, at ALL. I think I was just reflecting that there have been a few times that I have felt an undercurrent of the judgmental types of things that are so hard to dance around when you're talking finances. For example, I admit I find it hard that people won't cut cell phones, or won't cut cable or satellite. I find it hard not to pass judgment on that. I know some people are never going to understand why I made or make some choices. I'm sure others feel the same way about various choices/situations. And I think that we have all handled this as well as anyone can possibly - and I admire and respect each woman who posts on this board for being so sensitive and respectful. But, that tension will always be there a little bit.

I think I will shut up before I get myself completely turned around trying to explain. And, we are going sledding before it gets dark.

mamabear,

Don't worry about it!

I'm on the same page with the satellite and cell phones......which I see as non-essentials. We still don't have a cell phone plan here in our home, even though we could afford one now....but I can't take that money from debt reduction as long as we have unsecured debt of any kind. Like you said, these are choices. However, I don't have a problem judging others who think these are essentials....I suppose we all have a different opinion of what we regard as "essential".

For example, I could cut my food bill down to help roll that debt snowball faster, but I will not because I feel that whole foods and fresh produce are essential. (as well are organic soymilk and on occasion organic cow milk) Some other people may think I'm irresponsible and whatnot for this viewpoint, but that is OK.

I do think this board is awesome and while we may not see things in the same manner, the overall spirit of support and idea-sharing is wonderful!!!!!

I hope all keep on being as transparent as possible. I also hope we still have our respectful differences of opinions as to what is essential. It is all educational and good!!!!

Keep on Keepin On everyone!

Michelle....who wishes I had the time to spend here that I had a couple years ago. I miss being really active............

Eek, I'm sorry. I was coming back to say that I think a lot of my perceptions right now are about where I am in my head, and nothing else. And that I think I just muddled things up trying to explain my thoughts.

I wasn't directing anything at anybody in particular, at ALL. I think I was just reflecting that there have been a few times that I have felt an undercurrent of the judgmental types of things that are so hard to dance around when you're talking finances. For example, I admit I find it hard that people won't cut cell phones, or won't cut cable or satellite. I find it hard not to pass judgment on that.

don't apologize! i think hearing about how others make it work on what they have gives me ideas on how to make what we have go farther...and part of that is seeing how other people think about things.

i'm glad to see how people think on things.

that said...i think julie is right about not knowing the full story for other families. an example...twice in the above 2 posts people said they felt cell phones were extras and honestly found themselves passing judgement when people claimed to be "broke" yet kept cell service.

first of all...i think that's very honest and i'm glad they shared their feelings and i have no judgement on what they said...but secondly, knowing that different areas are vastly different, i can have a different opinion.

in *my* area, it is BY FAR cheaper for us to have a wireless phone (we actually have 3 in the house and share quite a few minutes, including my work allowance for both doula and photography needs) and no home phone. we come out ahead by nearly $50 at our last figuring (less than 6 months ago) by NOT having the home phone and instead having only wireless phones...



i only share that in response to the above and in accordance with what julie said. every family is so different and on a board like this we benefit from seeing and hearing how families in *very* different parts of the country live and manage their finances. in atlanta the above may be true (about phone service) but in the rural midwest, it may not be true at all...

We certainly don't do everything "perfect" financially. I certainly don't expect anyone else to either. But, I have definitely learned a few lessons for myself over the years, and I have gotten some great advice from other people here. One of my big turning points actually was a thread here that had everyone post their annual income. That poll made me realize we needed to be earning more (we were very low on the list). At times I needed super frugality, I learned lots of great tips here. And it was here that I first learned of debt snowballing. I am really happy with our current finances however, that said, we have debt we are still paying off and a lot more to do (investing, retirement savings etc are all becoming new concerns).

an example...twice in the above 2 posts people said they felt cell phones were extras and honestly found themselves passing judgement when people claimed to be "broke" yet kept cell service.


...


Please, please read my post again (that was a response).

In reading my post, you will see that while I do not find the cell phone necessary for my family, you will also read that I did state that I DO NOT judge those who feel they are necessary. (and I expanded on how we all see necessities differently)

Here is the exact quote from my post stating that I did not have a problem of judging others:

"However, I don't have a problem judging others who think these are essentials"

Was I misunderstood here? I hope so.

That (judging people) is something that I have gained victory over in my life (with God's grace). I had to make sure this was clear and did not want to be mis-represented and mistaken as someone who "honestly found themselves passing judgement" when I made sure to state that I do not have a problem with this area.

Judgement is a very sensitive area for me and I work very very hard in my own life to not judge others....it is a foundational belief of mine to try to not judge but to love and walk in a way that reflects my religious/spiritual belief system.

So sensitive that tomorrow I will sit for the first session of a half-sleeve tattoo that will feature the phrase "Only God May Judge Me". That is how important this is to me and why I had to respond with this post to make darned sure I am not misquoted or misunderstood here.

Thanks. I am honestly quite upset to have been represented as having said that I judge others when I made sure to state otherwise!!! I see that post as damaging to my reputation here and totally incorrect from what I typed. :( I really really hope this is a misunderstanding because it hurts.

Michelle

For example, I admit I find it hard that people won't cut cell phones, or won't cut cable or satellite.

Don't apologize!!! :lol: We don't have cable or satellite, for us, there is enough to watch without it. And when nothing is on, I read to the kids. That's how we got through all 7 Harry Potter books in 3 years. Or we'll watch a movie together, or play games (board or video). Our cell is a minimal family plan (but we need to re-eval that too), and our land line has no long distance, it's just for our dialup.

I too have problems with people who say they're so broke they don't have money for food, but they still have luxuries. I know it comes down to priorities, but when cable is $60 a month, it's just really not important to me.

But that's what this board does for me, makes me re-evaluate priorities. Some have cable because their phone/internet/cable bundle is cheaper than just two of those-- that's an angle that maybe I wouldn't look at without seeing someone else do it. We buy organic milk, and KristaRae's soaps, and a few other things that we could do without or buy cheaper, but they are luxuries that are priorities for us. We're going to Ikea today, we'll spend $230 on a buffet, and it is really hard for me to do. We're spending Christmas money, and we have waited 3 years to buy this one piece, and I'm excited, but it's still hard. All our dishes will go in it, cloth napkins, silverware, so the kids can set the table without contributing to kitchen traffic. But I'll probably be biting my lip when we go through the checkout.

Here's another-- I want a midwife. There is no way we can come up with her whole fee before March, and I am pushing my insurance to cover it. Then there's that voice in my head, if we had $3000 to spend, we should pay off our bills, do the insulation, fix the truck...