Lauren/MamaBear sent me this link a little while ago for food for thought... and wow! It really got my brain working. I decided that more people had to see it... so I am posting it here and in Super Crunch. Enjoy!

The Story of Stuff with Annie Leonard (http://www.storyofstuff.com/)

I hate computer stuff. Blech......

How long is that going to go on? Before we have to keep up with stuff, just because they are necessary to life? Becuase right now, we have the bottom of the line computer. We are moving up to a newerish computer because ours isn't really doing what we want it to anymore. And so I am down with getting that. I am. But when will we choose what we have and what will become obsolete? How long will this computer last? 1 year? 5 years? 10 years? And when we get rid of it, what will we be upgrading to? BETA to VHS to DVD and now what? And these things are necessary for "life" in our country. I am not talking about the things that are extra.... the Barbie clothes and the newest toys or the newest skinny heal shoes. I am talking about things used to communicate... and if you don't have them you don't communicate with everyone because their mode of communication has already past you and you are no longer 'convienent' to communicate with... so you drop off their radar. Not on perpose... but just because you haven't evolved.

Omg... what a terrifing prospect... and so now I am getting the new computer.

I don't care about shoes, or anything... those cycles I can stop. I can stop buying my kids thousands of $$ worth of Christmas crap. I can stop buying at the dollar store and keep buying at Goodwill. (But hell, even that is being exploited now.) But what about that other stuff? What is going to be done about that? And what else are they going to introduce that we have to maintain like the computers that are obsolete within two years of spending WAY too much money on them. What else are they going to invent that is going to change the way we live so drastically that if you don't have one you are "left behind".

Where is this all leading? (When will my husband think about this?!!?)

Val

DH and I watched it last night. He was unhappy that computers were used as the example of planned obsolescence. It simply isn't true in the way it was portrayed. At no point did a computer company say "we can do XXX, but let's take 10 years to get to that point, so consumers have to buy new computers every two years." No, computers fall more under perceived obsolescence, in that people are marketed to and then believe that they need a computer that does more.

As for the chip being a different size, that was laughable. Yes, you might need to replace the motherboard, but that doesn't mean the monitor and the other parts of the computer are useless. I'm humming along just fine on a Dell we bought a long time ago.

The problem with computers is that people don't have the basic knowledge they need to replace specific parts, and places like Best Buy charge an arm and a leg for repairs, take too long, and then try to convince people that buying new is better. Which makes sense for them . . . why would the big box want to fix your old stuff vs. selling you new stuff?

For most people, computers are good enough now, and have been for several years. They are fast enough for internet access, and can run word processing programs, financial programs, etc. They are fine as tools.

No, the push for ever faster computers with even better sound and graphics applies mostly to gamers. Yep, that means computers as toys.

All that aside, it was a great short film and I hope it reaches a large audience, not just the people who already have an awareness of the wide-reaching costs of consumerism.

But my dh DOES use the computer as a toy. He IS a gamer (I don't know if you knew that, but I am guessing I have said it before) and so this applies to me. It doesn't, in the way that you are thinking because I (me) don't game, but it does in the fact that the games that Don plays no longer work well on the computer we have and that effects my life. And gaming is a harmless (albeit mindless, and completely unproductive) habit for my dh. It gets off his steam and because we don't do a million other things (drink, go to movies, etc) I have allowed it to continue (not that I could stop it... it is sort of like a 300lb gorrilla, it would take very drastic measures).

So it does apply to me. Not to me, but to ME in the greater sense.

And for the things not fitting right. My dh can fix just about anything with computers... between him and Sarah's dh they CAN fix anything. But things still go out of date. It is just a fact. They DO go out of date, and they are planned that way. Even buttons on a coat are planned to fall off around one years time so you have to get a new coat every year... or you pay an arm and a leg for a really really good one, that you have for the rest of your life. Which is where I am slowly going to... but it is hard to know what those things are. And with the computer thing... well... There are weakness areas in all of us.

Val

I wrote my post with DH's opinion because he is a computer guy. Not only a guy who can take them apart and fix them, plus build them from parts, but a person who programs them. A person who, in many cases (many of his co-workers, for example), is the person who always wants the latest and greatest in computers.

The game companies want to sell stuff. The computer companies and retailers want to sell stuff. Computer technology moves forward, and gaming companies keep up because they compete with other gaming companies. I thought the whole point of the movie was to address how we are marketed to, what the true costs are, and how we can get off the treadmill. The movie made the point that the consumption isn't harmless at all.

What I am reading is that the computer issue affects you because you are frustrated by the change in technology and the fact that you want off the treadmill, but don't see a way to get there. I understand that you have to compromise; that's what partnership is about.

My DH was a gamer. He used to upgrade his computer, often (luckily he did it himself and saved money, and he even used his old parts to build computers for other people). Now he gets a premium computer every year from work (laptop goes between work and home), and he doesn't game on it at all. I can't claim to have had any influence on him, either. He decided on his own that games are pretty much the same (as in, all first person shooter games are the same, driving games are the same, etc.) He decided to step off the treadmill. Part of that was knowing that he didn't want his children using computer games until they are older, and really wanting them grounded in play and activity. Part of it was just a growing awareness on his part of the limited time he has on this planet, and how he wants to spend that time. His choices won't apply to everyone.

Buttons falling off a coat mean you have to buy a new one? I don't think you believe that Val; you've been here for far too long and you've never given off that vibe. Buttons fall off, yes. I don't think it's planned (although I will certainly agree that poorly made goods that are made to be sold on the cheap may have their buttons fall of faster); I've had buttons fall off vintage items and handmade items as well. Thread gets brittle with age and in the cold. Buttons get a lot of use. Buttons fall off; we (people who own coats) sew them back on. It isn't something new; I recall my grandmother telling me that my grandfather knew the basics of hand-sewing because his mother figured that he might need to sew on a button (or darn a sock, imagine that) some day. I've been sewing buttons back on my good winter coat for 12 years now. I realized the other day that I've had two buttons fall off recently and can only find one. New coat? No, I'll be looking for similar buttons to replace mine.

I guess that would be my one issue with the film; we (people in North America) were made to look like rather unintelligent victims. I, the middle-class consumer, am not the victim. It is unfortunate that most people aren't educated (either by their parents, by educational institutions, or by self-education) about things like marketing, reasoning (and how faulty reason fuels advertising), finances, and credit. It does move into the near criminal at times, charging people more than 30% interest on credit cards and approving mortgages that companies know people can't afford.

In my opinion, any of us here, reading these posts and watching that short film, we are not victims unless we allow ourselves to be victims. We have the intelligence to move past all of it. The truly poor, whether here or in other countries, I think they are the victims of consumerism.

Buttons falling off a coat mean you have to buy a new one? I don't think you believe that Val; you've been here for far too long and you've never given off that vibe.

oh no no no... of course not. I have had the same scarves (2) and coats (2) forever. My wool coat I can't even remember when I bought it I have had it so long. My other I bought two years ago when Don and I were on vacation because I couldn't take my wool one skiing (it's long and was getting in the way). They are the only coats I have bought since becoming an adult (for me, my kids get a new one every two or three years because they grow, but we usually find them at Goodwill (esp for Cyan and Logan whom do not ruin their coats. lol!)

I think buttons were a bad example. Snaps, zippers, (Zippers ARE planned to expire... I have seen the study on that one), etc....... planned to go out. I am not just blindly buying what she is saying and I totally understand the computer thing you were talking about... my dh and Sarah's dh do that too. Don just needs his upgraded a bit more often because he is a gamer, but he buy no means, buys a new computer every year... because he can buy the one part he needs (usually a video card) and then upgrade that, and use the rest until it falls apart (something it is doing currently. lol...)

She is deffently talking to mass media main stream americans... she isnt' talking to those of us who will read things like Omnivore's Delimma, or Plenty. Seriously. But those of us who are on this path will eventually step of (at least to a point) the path she is talking about... and easily... because it evolves once you see the connection. BUT.. it is still important for me at least to realise that I am not doing all I can do. Spelling it out for me, makes it easier for me to explain why my son can't get the newest and greatest whatchmacallit that his friends at school have. And that in turn, makes it more effective for me to BE one of those people who would read those books and make those changes. I am all for it.

Organic Clothing in Walmart for $7.98... well that is just scary. I have no idea what to think of that.

Val

I guess that would be my one issue with the film; we (people in North America) were made to look like rather unintelligent victims. I, the middle-class consumer, am not the victim. It is unfortunate that most people aren't educated (either by their parents, by educational institutions, or by self-education) about things like marketing, reasoning (and how faulty reason fuels advertising), finances, and credit. It does move into the near criminal at times, charging people more than 30% interest on credit cards and approving mortgages that companies know people can't afford.

In my opinion, any of us here, reading these posts and watching that short film, we are not victims unless we allow ourselves to be victims. We have the intelligence to move past all of it. The truly poor, whether here or in other countries, I think they are the victims of consumerism.

A couple people have said this - that the film makes us look like victims. The link was originally posted on the market board and someone said that there, and Matt showed the film to all his students yesterday and a few said that.

I'm curious as to how it showed us as victims. I thought she did an excellent job of pointing out how people work and live all along the system and how we participate in and create the system - ie the golden arrow of consumption, among other points in the system. I saw her point out how media and corporations and the government manipulate us, but the message was that we allow that and buy into it - and that we have the choice not to buy into it as well.

I have to run, but I'm interested in discussing this more. Where and how exactly did she portray American consumers as nothing more than the hapless victims of consumerism?

And yes, sure, the computer was an oversimplification. But we're not all technology experts, and I do think the way she described it is the way the average consumer understands it. Most people can't manage to pull open their box and figure out how to install a new motherboard and chipset.

I think there had to be some oversimplifications to explain what she explained in 20 minutes to a mainstream, lay audience who has NO IDEA that maybe they could buy less stuff. She wasn't addressing "us" - ie people already on the simplifying/consume less path. Still, I learned a lot from the film.

A couple people have said this - that the film makes us look like victims. The link was originally posted on the market board and someone said that there, and Matt showed the film to all his students yesterday and a few said that.


I was the one who posted that on the market board. I was also talking to Bobbi Jo about this yesterday so I've been thinking a little more about the film.

Maybe I need to watch the video again, but I really got the impression that she was placing the blame for our consumption culture solely at the feet of the media, corporations and the government. She made it sound like people just can't help but buy items because we are manipulated by "the system" into buying items - i.e. we work at our meaningless jobs, feel sorry for ourselves, go home and watch the TV which tells us we need xyz to be happy so we go buy it. I really wish that she had talked more about our role in this - how consumer demand for convenience and low prices has fueled the rise of manufacturing cheap junk for retail.

Also, I don't know if my view on this subject is skewed because I really don't know many people who fit the model shown in the video. After talking to Bobbi, I tried to think about who I know IRL that has the "gotta have it" because it's popular mentality, and I can only think of 3 people. Two are older relatives for whom I think shopping is a holiday. The other is cognitively disabled which I think makes her easily swayed. Everyone else I know - even people I would consider mainstream - seem savvy to the fact that the media is trying to sell us stuff that we may or may not need. So maybe this colors my perception of things.

I hope I'm not seen as argumentative. I think the video gives a lot of food for thought, and I've enjoyed discussing it even though I don't see business and consumerism as black and white as Annie Leonard does. But you might be right mamabear that I am asking too much of a 20 minute video intended to get people thinking about their purchases. And if the video is intended to get people thinking and talking about the subject, it has certainly succeeded there! :)

I know a lot of people like that. That just have to have the newest thing or whatever. I was raised the wierdo surrounded by them, and when I moved to the East Coast I met more. I am not just being judgemental. These people are friends. I love them... some are family. And I love them too... They don't just make bad choices or not think about the enviroment, they just buy the third world organic clothing they can from big box stores and call it 'good'.

The truth is, mindless consumers for the most part, do not exsist. People actually convince themselves they need this crap for one reason or another. They are not being mindless... they are just making the choices that the media wants them to. "I need this thing so my son will be happy, so I will be happy, so my spouce will find me attractive, etc" I think to a point you give people too much credit. I have found myself fallen into the trap more than a million times. Thinking that if I just had 'this' or 'this' I would look better, feel better, work better, etc. I have even fallen into the trap recently that sets up that I go out each day at lunch time, and then get pissed when I feel like it is necessary to buy lunch out.

The truth is... mindless consumers we may not be, but they still play us like harps. Just not as much as a lot of people.

I thought the video was excellent. I thought it accomplished what it needed to in the time given. That said, it makes me want to go live in a cave.

I think that if "people" think it makes us look like victims it is probably because they have a guilty conscience. No offense to any thinking people here in this forum.

I know A LOT of people who are very very very unaware of the motivations behind their consumer habits as well as the consequences of their actions. Most people I know not only don't know how to do things themselves or fix things but actually have attitudes against it. My neighbor said her old dryer stopped drying clothes so she needed to get a new high capacity dryer to match the high capacity front loading washer she just bought. I told her to check the dryer vent off the back of the house first. She said, "what's that". Then she got mad at me for changing the subject off this fabulous new dryer she was getting. Same neighbor is finishing her third floor as a guest room and a scrapbooking room. Because I guess she needed something else to do with her money and the 2500 sq ft she had wasn't enough.

I think the coat example was fine, Val, except I would alter it to the button falls off so consumer uses it as an excuse that she/he needed a new coat anyway. Have you ever found something at Goodwill that was fine except it was missing a button? I have? Have you ever lost a button to something and couldn't find one that matched the rest of them? Have you then bothered to replace every button so you could continue wearing the item? One of my many problems with box stores is they are so full of items they are trying to sell you that you don't need there is no room for the stuff you need and you can't find it anyway! One of the major must have toys today is a piece of fluff ball crap that's intention is to get kids on the internet and practice buying stuff. We are consumers from conception to grave. Our capitalist economy depends upon it.

I am curious. Have you sent this along to people you know? Like, "average" people? I would love to just send this to everyone in my contact list.

Making a difference is wonderful. It really truly is. It also isolates you. When dd was in public school I started allowing her to watch commercial television just so that she could join in on other kids conversations. I have practically nothing in common with the mothers I know. Yes, we all have kids, but we don't raise them the same. Most of the mothers I know cater to their children. Mothering today seems to be about making sure your kid has a really happy childhood complete with getting them the lastest toys, a steady diet of pizza and fast food and then frozen pizza and chicken nuggets at home, are up on the latest movies, and have more than they could ever need of cheap plastic toys, and when they are bored of those they get more. They get more because they get bored of the ones they have. Boredome is a huge catalist in the consumer culture we have. The idea that boredom is a motivation to buy something is completely beyond me.

Like I said, I want to go live in a cave. :help:

BTW if any of the above offends you I am sorry. :eyes: I was Christmas shopping last night.

This is amazing. I had a woman once tell me how wonderful the Pampered Chef kitchen shears are because she watched someone cut a frozen pizza with them. Another woman told me the Pampered Chef small bar pan is wonderful for reheating chicken nuggets. Why in the world would I want these albeit wonderful products for such things? ? ? They actually sell stuff saying that? That you can buy a 25 dollar pan to reheat $3 chicken nuggets?

I am curious. Have you sent this along to people you know? Like, "average" people? I would love to just send this to everyone in my contact list.

Making a difference is wonderful. It really truly is. It also isolates you. When dd was in public school I started allowing her to watch commercial television just so that she could join in on other kids conversations. I have practically nothing in common with the mothers I know. Yes, we all have kids, but we don't raise them the same.

Ditto, ditto, ditto. Yes, I did. I sent it to EVERYONE... posted it on both my blog and my online journal, etc. I am totally ok with somewhat being outside the mental box. Esp this time of year. lol... My dad even said last night (the only one who really thinks like me) that the stores don't even break even until after Thanksgiving and that is why they push Christmas SO hard... and they do. You can't go anywhere without seeing sales, 0% interest for 10 years, etc. It is amazing. I don't go out right now much as possible (I did all my christmas shopping weeks ago) because of it. I KNOW I am sheeple. I think that is the difference between me and the 'real' sheeple. lol...

I feel SO blessed to have the friends I have. They also are SO much closer to my beliefs than most of mainstream society. In most ways I buy less than even them... And in some ways I buy more. My kids have some of the techy-type gadgets (they both have DS, and we do watch the 'cool' mainstream movies (after I make sure they are ok for them of course)), and most of their kids do not. But they are also on average 5 years younger (or less). So that makes sense I guess.

90% of my friends now a days do not have cable tv. Oh, all of us have televisions in our houses, but we are not plugged into the cable/commercial machine. Have you noticed that more and more people are doing that, and so, in responce, DVD producers are making it impossible to "skip" the commercial section of the movies? That makes me just sick. And it is starting to effect us too... although I usually find a way around that... like I put in the movie, but dont turn on the TV for about 10 minutes... then when I do turn it on, it is just the menu. lol... I am sneaky. Sneaky about getting around the ad's. And how sad is that? You need a whole stratagy to not make your children subjected to nasty advertisments.

I had typed out a response but erased it... so I'll just say this:

I totally did not get a victimization vibe. I got a "learn more so that you aren't part of the problem, you're part of the solution" vibe. I also didn't get the "It's all the fault of _________ (government, ads, big business)" but that a combination of things and people's unwillingness to look past it (and willingness to point fingers away from themself) have caused the state we're in now.

And as far as computers and planned obsolescence... that wasn't the best example but it wasn't far off either... and it DOES occur with computers, mostly in the hyped up price tags for something that may be PENNIES more to make but can be touted as more spectacular than another, as well as with software needs, not just gaming (school programs and accounting are two things I've personally come into conflict with).

I posted an article on the market board about electronics and planned obsolescence a few weeks ago and it does a better job of explaining that aspect than The Story of Stuff.

I think the message is great, the delivery is great and that what's needed is a way to get people NOT to point the fingers at others but to look at where they stand as part of a solution.

I sent it to my brother and mom, so far. My mom was watching it when I called her a few hours later...she seemed to be making all sorts of connections to her own life and patterns, which I took to be a huge positive. (She's been the type to say, I can't believe when I was growing up how my friend's father had to wash out Ziploc bags and reuse rubber bands...it was insane. She's changed a lot, but still anything that smacks of Depression-era values to her is correlated with deprivation and is therefore bad. Her idea of "making it" is being able to buy whatever you want, new, whenever you want it. She's changing though, which I think is awesome.)

I haven't ever seen information like this all in one place, in an organized fashion. It really brings together all the disjointed information out there so you can see the larger picture, the whole system at work. So often we hear just little bits of why's for concern for deforestation, for declining species, for loss of natural resources, for global warming, sweatshop labor etc, but to see how it all fits together is so powerful.

I am subscribing to this thread and am now going to watch the video.

Waterlily-
"Mothering today seems to be about making sure your kid has a really happy childhood complete with getting them the lastest toys, a steady diet of pizza and fast food and then frozen pizza and chicken nuggets at home, are up on the latest movies, and have more than they could ever need of cheap plastic toys, and when they are bored of those they get more. They get more because they get bored of the ones they have. Boredome is a huge catalist in the consumer culture we have."

I have noticed this too! And in my experience, the moms that I know who rush to walmart to buy their kids the latest plastic junk are also the moms who don't spend any time with their kids other than disciplining. No talks, no extra hugs, heaven forbid you read a book to your kids!

I have a hard time with my kids cause they spend half their time with their dad who is a high tech junkie (read: computer whiz) and gets the newest gaming stuff all the time. He also has the tv on what seems to be 24/7 for the kids, probably permanently on Nickelodeon, so I hear a lot of "mommy on _____show I saw..." and at one point I finally asked my 8 year old to stop talking about the tv shows she saw and asked her what ELSE she did for 3 days.....

oops, I rambled

ok, watched the video, clips from youtube.

Actually, the kids watched it with me. Great time to talk about why we shop at thrift stores FIRST!

i need to watch the videos and take what i see to heart. we're upon some tighter times right now and i need to get out of the consumeristic mentality.