I have been thinking about this a lot. I hang out on the LLNOE board and I think about it. I am not one of those people who just saves money where ever I can. I lower my expectations of what my money can do for me to stay moral in my choices. Or at least I strive for that. Does that make sense? (I am posting this here and NOT there becuase I know it does to many of you...)

Like Black Friday. The idea that you have to be up at dawn and fight all of these other people for a 'thing' is rediculous to me. I don't support it, and I probably never will again (only place I used to go is JoAnn's, but I have gotten pickier there too).

I'd like to say it is my morals that is holding me back, but mostly it's just the older I get the pickier I get. And the more full my house gets the less I need... I replace things with nothing short of the top of the line... and I don't replace them until I can afford the top of the line, so I deal with Goodwill stuff a lot, and that is ok with me. Becuase even there I am picky and won't buy unless I love it.

I don't understand two things about modern culture. What is that pull to buy just cus it is on sale? And why buy things for people just because it's Christmas?

When I tried to do this (only for one year when I was with Chris 11 years ago) I found myself buying something for one person, and then two for the next, and then feeling bad because it wasn't even so having to find MORE for the first person just to make myself feel better. And sometimes they would never know... like they lived in different states. lol... It was stupid. And I spent a lot of time wondering why we were buying all this stuff... to apease our guilt?

Does anyone know what I mean?

Yeah, I totally get that. I looked through all the black friday ads and because there was nothing I wanted I was thinking, what's the big deal? But I guess for someone who was looking for something in particular then that would be awesome. Well, I take that back, my husband wanted the $4 coffee maker at Walmart to take to work, but I wasn't getting up at 4am to get it. They still had a huge end cap of them a week later so he got one after all.

I get the nicer items epiphany too. We used the nastiest flaking rusting teflon pans that we had gotten for our wedding and refused to buy new until we could afford a pan sat that would last a life time. A few years later we got our tax return and bought a set of all clad pans.

We did the same with the stove and washer/dryer, although I highly regret these purchases and are praying that stupid flat top electric stove breaks down so I can have a cheap gas stove. :lol:

Then there's the front loader washer that refuses to get my clothes and diapers clean. GRRRRRR! It's so hard to know what that long lasting purchase is going to be.

Might I add that our bathroom has been sitting unfinished without a sink or nice flooring for over a year because I'm saving up for an old fashioned bathtub. I totally get it. :thumbsup:

I don't understand two things about modern culture. What is that pull to buy just cus it is on sale?





My MIL and my BIL/SIL do this. I'll start with my MIL. She has pretty much no money. Why? She's in debt. She gets her paycheck and pays the bills including the minimum on her credit card. Then the leftover money is spent, usually at the dollar store. Why? Because it's such a fabulous deal! She saved so much money! But then something happens. She's back at the store for groceries and happens across x and y widgets that are such a fabulous price she's sure she'll never see them so cheap again! So she must buy them (with the credit card because she spent her money). Then she will complain about her credit card and how the balance never goes down and will say, "I know I bought x and y widget but they were a good price, I needed them and I know I'll never see them that cheap again!"

And I want to puke.

Then there's BIL and SIL. Living off every gov't program and LYING (this is where I have issues, I think gov't assistance is there for a reason and too many people abuse it) about their income to do so. They have a home biz that makes a good amount, more than enough to live on plus they collect rent for another house and they work under the table for family members. Here's what they do: (example) Did you see our new wood splitter? We got a great deal on it. Lowe's was having a 10% off sale and we need the log splitter for the shop so it's a business expense. It will save so much work. It only cost $1500. Since we made $3000 in orders and sales last week we figured business is picking up and soon it will be easy to pay the bills (or so I've heard for three years).

Another example two months later:
Hey, Did R tell you? We took out another mortgage on the house and paid off our cc's with it (nevermind that they inherited that house AND another house and owed $0 on it before, took out one mortgage and now have two). Did you see the computers we bought? We had a few thousand left over and decided the kids needed their own computer so we gave them the two old ones and R & I each got one. They count as business expenses. Now we just have to pay back the bank for overdraft fees for the past few months and we'll have no debt. :hahaha:

A week later:
Hubby bought me this new ($200) cell phone for Valentines day. I didn't like my old one. Isn't this one pretty!

A month later:
We bought X's home biz for a few thousand. It didn't come with many supplies, mostly we were purchasing her customer list to add onto ours. We took out a business loan for it.

And yes, they were black friday shopping. Because look at all the great deals!


Man, I feel sick remembering all of that. It's all about the possessions in this area. If you don't have anything, you're worthless, more or less.

i love goodwill/thrift - its recycling at its best.

hey now - the ipods I got on BF were on sale :) I saved $22 on them :D

That's *something*

But, yeah - I've gone through phases this holiday season - not being able to really shop like I have in years past.

Right now, I'm content. I feel a tiny bit bad about the people who won't get anything this season, but I know that they will understand and my Dad has said he's glad because there's nothing they need and that Christmas is for the kids. :)

taking my dog out of this fight ;)

Well, y'all can tell me if I'm wrong about what will follow. I'm totally okay with that :D

I really like the idea of this forum. Simplicity. I do not want more stuff. I do not want to waste (and for me it feels like a waste) to spend my time shopping. It is not something I either enjoy or value. I don't care for consumerism. I value simplicity. I do not need or want more stuff. For many reasons. And, I hate the manipulation of sales.

But, I do not participate in this forum because for me it has nothing to do with thrift. I have found - for me - that over the years when I focus on thrift I tend to accumulate more crap.

"wow, I have a $25 off coupon for Ann Taylor Loft. I wasn't actually thinking of shopping right now and I don't actually need anything, but I just cannot see throwing money away, so instead of not shopping, I'm going to go and spend money I wasn't going to spend on something I don't need just because it is on sale."

I have routinely found that the things that I have gone back and forth on, putting on hold, then reconsidering, but then never getting out of my mind until I go back and spend more than I actually budgetted myself are the exact same things that I have worn over and over and over again, but yet those things that I bought because it was a good deal (!!!) are the very things that become clutter.

So, I don't shop because marketing tells me I must. I shop when I have determined there is a need, have made my decision out of the stores, and just purchase the thing I need - even if it is spendy. Hence, why I don't hang out here. I feel that my approach/attitude is not included.

And, ultimately, who cares why one person choses to wake before the **** crows in order to shop black friday and why one person doesn't. Who cares if it is frugal or moral? What ultimately matters is what YOU (the generic you) value be it frugality or a self-moral position of non-consumerism. I don't think that one person is inherently more or less moral (or right) than another based upon their relationship with consumerism (so long as they are able to meet their finacial needs).

Becca... I agree with a lot of what you were saying. And like I said, it wasn't to make people wrong with what I was saying, it was just random thoughts. That was all. But then I have moments... like with the way my dh is. Well, I watch him (a successful, extremely tallented (in two careers now) man) get sucked in by the consumerism and I no longer think that it is just a frusteration on my part... I actually start thinking it is wrong. It feels wrong... it hurts people.

Right now I am reading "The Omnivore's Delima"... basically the book talks about how we are a young mixed culture country are not bound by rules of culture that have been proven over many many years, and so therefore we are completely obsessed with being healthy and the least healthy developed country pretty much on the planet.

I think that same thing applies to consumerism. We haven't had long enough to develop rigorous moral codes (or cutulral codes, which don't have to be moral perse') that dictate what we buy, how we buy it, and when we should get it. We are "free" and so therefore we can do whatever we want, which includes nearly killing ourselves to pay for debt, and eat things that slowly distroy our insides without a second thought as to why, because as a culture, less than a hundred years into our becoming a country, the industrialized world had taken over, and as they say in Sea Buisket: "that was the end and the begining of imagination, all at the same time". So basically, our cultural codes are written on the "if you want it, you SHOULD have it" ...even if it isn't good for you or you don't have the money.

This may all be inane babble... and that is totally ok with me, it was just where my head was... and in the true spirit of being dramatic, I thought I would put it out there for others to see and critique. ;)

Mostly though, I don't buy things becuase they are a good deal. If I wasn't going to spend money in the first place, it doesn't save me money to get something on a killer deal. It just doesn't. I don't clip coupons, I don't save box tops, I don't worry about whether or not something will be cheaper next week... unless I was already planning on buying it before I saw that it was on sale.

Val

Shoot Val, random thoughts are the entire way I communicate :lol: that's my favorite type of converstations. Rambling and tangential and from deep inside one's head.

I loved The Omnivore's Dilemma. Great book. Totally changed how we approach our food purchases. Went from buying all at Whole Foods (and feeling oh so good about it) to growing our own, farmer's market, local for dairy and eggs, and actually paying for a deer our neighbor hunted to be processed.

While I did say that I don't care what and how others chose to spend money that they have to spend (but it is critical that they have it to spend; I guess it is one of those I did it so you can to stances, but I went from major credit card, automobile, and student loan debt to debt free because of choices I made; so I do have issues with spiraling down to a point where bankruptcy looks like the only way) . . . anyway, back to the point (see meandering thoughts). I don't care for the most part, but I do have my personal priorities and values and often see others spending in ways that is counter to my values.

Clearly we - as a nation - have a huge problem with consumer debt. We want what we want when we want it and it seems as if want has become need has become entitlement.

Then, on the other hand, I know that I'm judged for spending choices I and my family make and people think, "I cannot believe she is spending that kind of money on that."

I do want to make it clear that I DO, 100%, buy Christmas gifts for people. I do do this. But I like to buy gifts for people in general. I like to make things, I like to plan gifts, I enjoy it... so I do it. Christmas is a good excuse to do that... but it has been a long time since I have found something on sale and said "Who could I buy this for?" It is the person that dictates the gift, not the gift that dictates the person.

Total babble... feel free to ignore. ;)

Clearly we - as a nation - have a huge problem with consumer debt. We want what we want when we want it and it seems as if want has become need has become entitlement.

How many people would see it this way though? You know? That is my problem. I used to live in a more rural area. The only real place to shop was Walmart (since they moved in and the two large stores that were "local" died... :vent: ), so you would see, all the time, people going in there, in super cheap, made in China clothing that wasn't going to last another two months, to get plastic toys and more cheap clothing, on credit, for their kids who can't close their bedroom doors because they have so much cheap plastic crap, including their own TV and DVD player in there because they are always bored and mom is watching the tv in the living room. I realize I am being totally judgemental. I am. But there is no blame... it isn't their fault! That is where this culture will steer you (not to black friday... to that over consumerism that kills you)... that is the way we are set up! How fricken scary is that???

(Judged? We are ALL judged, sister. Just the other day I had someone's mouth GAPING becuase I told her I had an 11 1/2 year old when she thought that Logan was my only child. Alex came in to hand me something and her mouth nearly hit the floor. You have HOW many kids? She asked... "three".... and he's yours? "Yes" And how old are you?)

so you would see, all the time, people going in there, in super cheap, made in China clothing that wasn't going to last another two months, to get plastic toys and more cheap clothing, on credit, for their kids who can't close their bedroom doors because they have so much cheap plastic crap, including their own TV and DVD player in there because they are always bored and mom is watching the tv in the living room.

Are you serious, Val?!?! You would look at someone going into Walmart and think any of this? Why? because they were shopping at Walmart? Yeah, you admitted you were being judgmental, but I am truly shocked at the level of judgement in the above quote-- shocked.

Val - when I hung out at the other DR forum, I noticed the same thing. A lot of people there did analyze the price more than the need. I think it takes time to move away from consumerism. Paying off debt is a great step in that direction, because who *really* wants to go back once it's paid off?

I think this forum's title is actually spot on. Simplifying tends to be the priority, but we also discuss thrift in the context of simplifying. That and meeting basic needs. But pretty much all of us have categories where we feel the least expensive choice isn't necessarily the best for whatever reason. Frequently it does boil down to our own morality: don't want to support exploitation of people/animals/the land here in another country, so we buy fair trade, local, fuel efficient or organic. Often, I find that used is an option that suit my needs without creating more demand for resources. That and making do.

I actually shop the thrift store with a list. I don't buy things because they're bargains any more.

I did find that the months of compacting really affected me. I'd like to start again with the new year - the move made it impossible for a while. Some things simply had to be purchased new, but most of what we did was repair/scrounge/buy used even then. Paint wasn't preowned. But the floors were refinished, and the carpet we put in was made of coke bottles. ;)

I haven't gotten a microwave here, because I'm not sure I even need one. But I will say we were out on Black Friday evening trying to replace DH's computer monitor. We ended up doing it another day.

(Judged? We are ALL judged, sister. Just the other day I had someone's mouth GAPING becuase I told her I had an 11 1/2 year old when she thought that Logan was my only child. Alex came in to hand me something and her mouth nearly hit the floor. You have HOW many kids? She asked... "three".... and he's yours? "Yes" And how old are you?)

I couldn't care much less about being judged for something about which I feel perfectly fine. :lol: I just know that we all judge and we are all judged.

taking my dog out of this fight ;)

I hope my post didn't offend you.

Are you serious, Val?!?! You would look at someone going into Walmart and think any of this? Why? because they were shopping at Walmart? Yeah, you admitted you were being judgmental, but I am truly shocked at the level of judgement in the above quote-- shocked.

Honestly? I have before... and realized it was time for me to stop shopping there. I have been there maybe three times in the last 5 years. And here, Walmart is kind of a 'thing'. We have bumper stickers that say "I do not shop at Walmart!" all over town. It wasn't me thinking this... well, quite honestly, sometimes it was... but it isn't just me. Around here... Walmart is judged. BIG TIME. We are a huge hub for local activism for our area. It's a much bigger deal than just Walmart, but Walmart is the cornerstone of everything that many people around here stand against. When a Walmart was going in in our town, there was actually a protest... for DAYS in front of the city hall... they got it to go through under the wire and around the people who all protested... but construction hasn't started yet... so who knows... it may never happen. I think people around here will appeal it into the ground. Like I said... it isn't something I think of on my own. If that helps. I know it's judgemental... and I haven't thought that way in years. But if I am being honest, I did think things like this. And it was time for me to make a change. So I don't shop there anymore.

Don't be too shocked... everywhere, just like everyone, has it's own agenda. This isn't a new thing.

I couldn't care much less about being judged for something about which I feel perfectly fine. :lol: I just know that we all judge and we are all judged.

:lol: I wish it didn't bug me... but sometimes it does. I guess it is kind of a petty thing to be upset about being judged for huh? Oh well... I was babbling. Apparently being petty is my MO of the day. :p

I think this forum's title is actually spot on. Simplifying tends to be the priority, but we also discuss thrift in the context of simplifying. That and meeting basic needs. But pretty much all of us have categories where we feel the least expensive choice isn't necessarily the best for whatever reason. Frequently it does boil down to our own morality: don't want to support exploitation of people/animals/the land here in another country, so we buy fair trade, local, fuel efficient or organic. Often, I find that used is an option that suit my needs without creating more demand for resources. That and making do.

I agree. I really enjoy the level of frugalism this board takes because I can say things like "I bought a bunch of local meat" or "I got 5 eggs today!" and people will celebrate that as much as "I paid off my Best Buy card"... :D

But, I do not participate in this forum because for me it has nothing to do with thrift. I have found - for me - that over the years when I focus on thrift I tend to accumulate more crap.

"wow, I have a $25 off coupon for Ann Taylor Loft. I wasn't actually thinking of shopping right now and I don't actually need anything, but I just cannot see throwing money away, so instead of not shopping, I'm going to go and spend money I wasn't going to spend on something I don't need just because it is on sale."

I have routinely found that the things that I have gone back and forth on, putting on hold, then reconsidering, but then never getting out of my mind until I go back and spend more than I actually budgetted myself are the exact same things that I have worn over and over and over again, but yet those things that I bought because it was a good deal (!!!) are the very things that become clutter.


To me thrift is getting what is *needed* complete with quality and in good conscious (i.e. I don't buy meat from CAFOs). I definitely don't spend money just because it's a good deal.

For example, our camera is acting up. Since we have a business that requires we take pictures we'll be replacing the camera when it dies. So we are preparing for it by reading reviews, going to a store and holding, playing with the ones that we are interested in and watching the pricing at various stores as well as watching for marketing junk because it's something we plan to buy, not because it's something being marketed to us and we feel the need to buy it to fill the need the marketing is trying to create. We won't be purchasing a camera because it's cheap and "thrifty" but by it's longevity and quality and in doing so it will be a "thrifty" buy IMO because it will last and provide better quality.

And I'm all for simplifying. I just wish I knew *how* at the moment. My life is all tangled and messy right now.

I hope my post didn't offend you.

not at all, i totally agree with you mama :hug:

i love hearing your random thoughts, val. i have similar ones to the original post myself.

i don't think there's hardly anyone if anyone at all who is active in this forum and buys things to be buying them on sale. i think that's more of an immature way to look at simplifying and thrift. i think those people often think themselves thrifty in that moment, but may not consider themselves a simple, thrifty person. i don't know...maybe they do...but they'll probably grow and evolve and realize that it's not best to buy just because it's on sale...like most of the rest of us have learned.

and then there's the fact that lots of us here consider ourselves simple and thrifty, but not in every single area of our lives, necessarily. the same simple person may come to talk about their thrifty grocery budget or birthday party, but not about the $100 dress for the christmas party or the 2011 new car they bought. i appreciate their contributions in areas that that person *is* thrifty. and then there is kind of a group of overall extremely simple, thrifty mamas who i respect greatly and get tons of inspiration from.

i have been so sad that this forum hasn't had any new thoughts lately. i get so much inspiration here. :)

ok....i think i'm off of he original topic and on a tangent now...LOL!

Slightly off track, but I get so irritated when my mom buys my kids junk for holidays because she feels like she needs to get them something. It usually ends up in the goodwill box a few weeks later and she totally wasted her money. I tell my family to get the kids something useful. Magazine subscriptions, a bank account fund for homeschooling activities or whatever, something educational and fun. Not some crappy plastic toy that I'm trying so hard to get rid of in my house. I'm not trying to sound ungrateful but I'd rather she save her money you know? She always says it's the thought that counts, but when I go to get her or stepdad a present it has to be specific to her standards. UGH! I say take your xmas money and buy yourself something. Bah humbug!!!!! :hahaha:


Oh and I'm really trying to get down to the nitty gritty of clearing out crap in my house. I feel so confused and frustrated when things are cluttered. I actually think I'm snappier and mean when I can't get things organized. Sometimes I think I should move to Africa and live in a straw hut with a dirt floor so I don't have to deal with all the crap. ;)

Honestly? I have before... and realized it was time for me to stop shopping there. I have been there maybe three times in the last 5 years. And here, Walmart is kind of a 'thing'. We have bumper stickers that say "I do not shop at Walmart!" all over town. It wasn't me thinking this... well, quite honestly, sometimes it was... but it isn't just me. Around here... Walmart is judged. BIG TIME. We are a huge hub for local activism for our area. It's a much bigger deal than just Walmart, but Walmart is the cornerstone of everything that many people around here stand against. When a Walmart was going in in our town, there was actually a protest... for DAYS in front of the city hall... they got it to go through under the wire and around the people who all protested... but construction hasn't started yet... so who knows... it may never happen. I think people around here will appeal it into the ground. Like I said... it isn't something I think of on my own. If that helps. I know it's judgemental... and I haven't thought that way in years. But if I am being honest, I did think things like this. And it was time for me to make a change. So I don't shop there anymore.

Don't be too shocked... everywhere, just like everyone, has it's own agenda. This isn't a new thing.


I'm not talking about being anti-walmart or activism or anything like that. I'm talking about what you said about seeing a person walking into wal-mart...

:lol: I wish it didn't bug me... but sometimes it does. I guess it is kind of a petty thing to be upset about being judged for huh? Oh well... I was babbling. Apparently being petty is my MO of the day. :p

okay, figuring this next part out what probably one of the most helpful insights I have ever had: if the judgment hurts, it probably rings true internally. If it is easily shrugged off, I feel confident in my choice of behavior.

Make sense? :D

I think this forum's title is actually spot on. Simplifying tends to be the priority, but we also discuss thrift in the context of simplifying. That and meeting basic needs. But pretty much all of us have categories where we feel the least expensive choice isn't necessarily the best for whatever reason. Frequently it does boil down to our own morality: don't want to support exploitation of people/animals/the land here in another country, so we buy fair trade, local, fuel efficient or organic. Often, I find that used is an option that suit my needs without creating more demand for resources. That and making do.

I actually shop the thrift store with a list. I don't buy things because they're bargains any more.

I did find that the months of compacting really affected me. I'd like to start again with the new year - the move made it impossible for a while.

I could just ditto everything you said. Although I have no good excuse for dropping the Not Buying except lack of stamina. It changed so much about how I thought about spending and "things." I think I will definitely go Compacting this time around (which I've really, mostly done, with very few exceptions).

As for moral choices. I do think there's a difference between being frugal for the sake of being frugal, and making choices based on a desire to reduce our consumption and thereby our impact on the earth. I actually consider myself to have both reasons motivating me.

I also try to stop short of judging what other people buy, why they buy it, or even whether they have the means to buy it. I find myself judging so quickly, but have started trying to step back and realize that I'm judging, and stop. It's an exercise that extends through all of my life. (That and letting go of control! Two biggies for me!) Not that I'm holding myself out there as perfect or anything. Just some things I'm working hard on right now.

As for moral choices. I do think there's a difference between being frugal for the sake of being frugal, and making choices based on a desire to reduce our consumption and thereby our impact on the earth. I actually consider myself to have both reasons motivating me.

.


Amen.

How many people would see it this way though? You know? That is my problem. I used to live in a more rural area. The only real place to shop was Walmart (since they moved in and the two large stores that were "local" died... :vent: ), so you would see, all the time, people going in there, in super cheap, made in China clothing that wasn't going to last another two months, to get plastic toys and more cheap clothing, on credit, for their kids who can't close their bedroom doors because they have so much cheap plastic crap, including their own TV and DVD player in there because they are always bored and mom is watching the tv in the living room. I realize I am being totally judgemental. I am. But there is no blame... it isn't their fault! That is where this culture will steer you (not to black friday... to that over consumerism that kills you)... that is the way we are set up! How fricken scary is that???


I'm editing because I sounded kind of snotty in my reply which I didn't really mean. I do have to ask you if you know a lot of people like you are describing? I know a lot of people, some in my tribe and some not. I don't really know these kinds of folks. I do believe that there is an overabundance of "stuff" since I see so much useless crap available. However, I think your statement is a bit of an exaggeration.

okay, figuring this next part out what probably one of the most helpful insights I have ever had: if the judgment hurts, it probably rings true internally. If it is easily shrugged off, I feel confident in my choice of behavior.

Make sense? :D

I just have to agree with this. I have always said that whenever something really gets to me I know it's because it spotlights my insecurity- otherwise I can just laugh it off.

One more note while I'm typing. Today we all visited the local Poe historical house downtown. They had the annaual Holiday Jubilee. One of the docents mentioned that while people consider materialism something very new, the families would have things such as silver sets and expensive crystal to show their position and wealth off to their guests. Something such as a crystal salt holder and sterling spoon was one example she showed us.

This thread has been all over the place, and I am tired, and confused, so I'll just stick with the one thing that stuck in my head. :p

I love sales like Black Friday. (I've never done BF, for various reasons and circumstances, but will do the equivalent every time I find one and I have money to spend at the same time.) It may look like I am spending indiscriminately, on piles and piles of "stuff", but it's stuff I have been needing or wanting desperately for a LONG time, but could never justify it out of the budget, until it went on sale. Bedding is a case in point. I like GOOD bedding, that does the job, and I feel wonderful using. GOOD bedding, though, is freaking expensive. So if the opportunity comes up, where it is all half off, etc, you better believe I will be grabbing some, and getting up at four AM, if that's what it entailed. Along with everything else on my list, and maybe a thing or two that I also was keeping in the back of my mind, but didn't have on my list.

Mass consumerism is not necessarily evil, and neither are the sales that spawn it. It's the motivation and attitude that makes the difference, imo. My piling into the car in pitch black to do battle with a thousand other shoppers, does not make me mindlessly following the herd; it is right in line with my frugal intentions. It just happens to look the same as everyone else. :p

I do love goodwill, too, and eBay, and side of the road scores. But I also like buying my digital camera from a place with a solid return policy, and/or warranty support, and if I can get that AND spend that much less of my limited resources, I am there.

I think it is easy to get into the trap of "spending to save." Or at least I like to think that it is easy to fall into this mentality since I seem to struggle with it a lot. A few years back, I realized that I was turning into a major hoarder, expecially for food. I would buy stuff, not because I needed it, but because someday I *might* need. Now I've kinda swung to other extreme, and I don't shop at all if I can help it. Or at least I never shop for fun. I always try to go to the store with a purpose. If I just go to browse, I will undoubtably find something that is a "deal" and buy it for that reason even if I don't need it. I've also gotten to the point where if something breaks, I don't replace it right away. I've discovered that I can do just fine without a lot of things.

That said, I *love* Black Friday. I think you can get some great deals although again, it is easy to fall into the trap of buying something just because of the price. But I think if you are careful and only buy what's on your list, you can save some major money that day. We ran short of money, this year and I didn't go out. It kills me to think that we will probably buy some of the items that were on sale for Black Christmas and that we missed out on getting substantially lower prices. For example, I really want a new digital camera. Mine is dying a slow death - sometimes it works, sometimes not. I was going to buy one of Black Friday but didn't. DH will most likely get me one for Christmas but I am quite sure that whatever he gets now will not match the sale I could have gotten on Black Friday. So of course I am biased, but I don't think Black Friday is all bad. What is bad is rushing to the store and buy this, that and the other thing and thinking 'I'll figure out later what to do with all this stuff.'

How's that for rambling?

I don't understand two things about modern culture. What is that pull to buy just cus it is on sale? And why buy things for people just because it's Christmas?

Does anyone know what I mean?

I know what you mean. I told DH that if he had an urge to buy me an expensive gift, I want a cow share!

DS was suprised the other day when he overheard me saying we had debt. I explained to him that many people in this country are in debt, but, ideally, we should live in such a way that we don't have it, and that is what we are going to be trying to do in the coming year(s).

Mass consumerism is not necessarily evil, and neither are the sales that spawn it. It's the motivation and attitude that makes the difference, imo.

I am ok to agree to disagree on the level of evil :p ;) .....but I do think that the way you use them is the best they can be used. I totally hear you about the budget and not being able to get the things you need until it goes on sale. TOTALLY hear ya. I have done this before too (not on black friday, but other times)... I just think that things like Black Friday are a manipulation of the psychie.

Gloriel, I understand what you are saying. And I am not going to turn around and say I have never thought anything like that watching people. I have... But it was wrong and it changed the way I shopped, and the way I looked at things with some of that "over the top" judgmentalness... that is what those uncomfortable moments are for. AND when I wrote it, it was ALL about culture and morals and anti-walmart activism etc.... if you read the rest of that paragraph I wasn't talking about the people perse', I was talking about the phenomenon.

i'll be back

nak

As for moral choices. I do think there's a difference between being frugal for the sake of being frugal, and making choices based on a desire to reduce our consumption and thereby our impact on the earth.

I'm going to second Stacy's Amen.

nm, it doesn't matter.

If I was to say that I have known people like I discribed would I win the hypothetical person argument? For a fact... Yes I do. And from these posts, so do other people. Would it have been better to talk about a specific person? Who knows. Too late now apparently. But if I was talking about a relitive that would have been ok?

This is not what this thread was about. Nor will I continue down this line of thinking. I am not evil. I do not think evil things about everyone I meet. It was a judgement that I did think, years ago, about people that I saw shopping in places like that, and it spawned ME, personally ME, to change the way I, ME, personally, shopped. You don't have to like my process or condone it. But being dishonest about the way one thinks to spawn change is about as proactive as chewing bubble gum instead of brushing your teeth.

As for moral choices. I do think there's a difference between being frugal for the sake of being frugal, and making choices based on a desire to reduce our consumption and thereby our impact on the earth. I actually consider myself to have both reasons motivating me.

I agree completely Lauren. Every time I think about this, it is like another layer gets pulled off the onion and I can see deeper and deeper. Thank you for saying that outloud. :heart:

and this is why... This country has changed (progressed?) markedly since my mother's time. My mother lived through the depression, so she kept EVERYTHING and gave it value. Her best line was "You get what you pay for."
In a logic argument, I consider most things at WalMart and other box stores to be cheaply made. Therefore I consider the people who shop there frequently to be unconcerned with the longevity of their purchases. So I conclude that they're not being mindful of how they spend their money, because they will undoubtedly have to buy another such thing in a short amount of time. I've bought furniture, appliances and toys at Target, and none of them have held up for more than a year or two... What kind of record is that? Back in the day, people used to pass their goods down to their kids, or be able to give them to others. Who can say that anymore? Who has heirlooms from WalMart? I have 50+ year old tools I got at yard sales that do more work than the piece of sh!t vacuum I got at ShopKo.

I do think it's true that we as a nation need a complete overhaul in our mentality toward consumerism, capitalism and making our society happy & healthy. To me, it's all inextricably linked to the decline of craftsmanship and the outsourcing of American manufacturing. We now have the mass mentality that cheap = good, and having our lives full of convenient, disposable goods is the mark of a good life.

Until we stress recycling as a way of life, frugality over junk-spending, and knowing how your products and food are made, we'll just continue to burn up our ozone with emissions, fill up our landfills with plastic and our kids will pay the price. You know what would make me happy? Rationing. I would LOVE to go back to the days of rationed electricity, fuel and food. I think the average American (and I'm doubtful that there are many 'average' Americans on these boards, so I'm not talking about you-all) wastes far too much of all these things.

So there, Val, you're not as extremist as you think :p I'm right there with you.

One more note while I'm typing. Today we all visited the local Poe historical house downtown. They had the annaual Holiday Jubilee. One of the docents mentioned that while people consider materialism something very new, the families would have things such as silver sets and expensive crystal to show their position and wealth off to their guests. Something such as a crystal salt holder and sterling spoon was one example she showed us.

It's very true that materialism has been around longer than we have! I think a big difference between materialism now, and materialism then, is that modern materialism is made up of disposables much more than it was back "then". The biggies in materialism now are electronics, which are constantly outdated, upgraded, disposed of, etc. The material goods that people bought then seemed to be more of the sterling silver and fine crystal variety....it was kept for a lifetime, and handed down to the next generation.

As far as shopping Black Friday and the materialism around it.....I LOVE looking at Black Friday ads, and thinking about what I would *like* to buy....but then I remember how broke I am (frugality rearing its head, since we don't do credit cards) and how cluttered my house already is (simplicity rearing its head, reminding me that I'm not living very simply if I'm that cluttered) and pitch the ads in the recycle bin, LOL.

Ok, I have to say that Val, I do agree with you... I just think that you took your statements a bit far, but that's behind us. We are an extremely consumeristic society (but I was out there on black Friday, like Murali-- shopping for bedding, because our stuff from our wedding 10 years ago is falling apart).

I *totally* get what you're saying about Christmas and giving gifts just for the heck of it. My 95 year old grandmother does not want or need a single thing. She gets new clothes and they sit in her drawers while she wears her old, worn-out comfortable ones. But I am *supposed* to get her something because it's Christmas. My grandparents-- all they want are gift cards to the amazon or ac moore. This year they are giving money rather than gifts. I want to just say-- you keep your money, I'll keep the gift card (really what thought is there in those gifts????) and let's just get together... share a meal, spend time together. Forget the gifts! I cringe because I know my children are going to end up with a bunch of crap from well-meaning relatives. I said something to my mom about toys that will get broken in a week, etc. and she said "but the kids like them." Wouldn't they like something that lasts more than a week better? I wouldn't care at all if we did away with gifts at Christmas and just focused on spending time together as a family and making memories.

So there, Val, you're not as extremist as you think :p I'm right there with you.

Thank you Julie... for not thinking I am evil. lol...

You know what really happened? I spent all day long thinking too much. Just a warning for me for the future, don't type things that you feel strongly about while my phone is broken, dh at work, and stuck in my house, during a snow storm with three kids while on PMS. LOL! (Sounds like good advice right?)

But really, what you said Julie, was what I was talking about. I just read a book called Lucia Lucia (Lou-chia) about an Italian craftsperson who lost her job at the begining of the RTW (ready to wear) clothing boom in the late 1950's. The end of her craft... the end of a lot of craftsmen... and it has just gotten worse since we have deported all of our handicrafts to China and Thailand. Now instead of having a tiny closet of very well made, hand crafted, fitted perfectly clothing... we have HUGE walk in closets of Made In China goods that fall apart and arn't really that flattering in the first place... and because we are convinced we need one of everything, we spend more money than we ever did on the well made, hand talored goods that last forever.... It's just sad is all... just sad.

I cringe because I know my children are going to end up with a bunch of crap from well-meaning relatives. I said something to my mom about toys that will get broken in a week, etc. and she said "but the kids like them." Wouldn't they like something that lasts more than a week better? I wouldn't care at all if we did away with gifts at Christmas and just focused on spending time together as a family and making memories.

I feel the same way. I caught my dh telling my MIL what the kids wanted and I steared him (and then her) in the direction of the gifts that will last forever, go with a set of things they already have, or money for a specific experience (like go cart racing, horseback riding, or a trip with grandma to a book store... things like that). I think these things mean SO much more...

One of my major vices is that I eat out. I have for about the last year and a half with periods of doing better and worse, but far more than I did any time in my past. But with the eating out, even occasionally getting TOTAL junk, I don't let the kids get the kidsmeal toys. Yes, I know, I am MEAN, but I always hand them back (even when the kids get the kidsmeal because sometimes it is a better deal) and they always look at my like I have two heads, and I say "I don't need something else to throw away from the floor of my car." They shrug and move on with their lives, and probably talk about the weird mean lady who's kids are deprived of Kidsmeal toys, but really... who does need more crap to throw away from the floor of the car?

Ok, now I MUST get off the computer... my dd is wanting me to finish her fairy costume for next weeks snow fairy party... and she is whinning now... oh the whinning.... save me....

right - so what, if anything, do we do, especially during the holidays? My family (well, at least my sister and I) have agreed on making things/ inexpensive, but thoughtful things, etc. DH's bio dad's family probably gets it already- most of them have carefully chosen and limited "stuff". I know his Aunt comes from this place. One year she was genuinely disappointed with us for buying her kids GCs to a bookstore. She really meant "no gifts" - which was totally new to us. She inspired me to read "Unplug the Christmas Machine" many years ago. Now that I have kids, I could probably stand a re-read sometime. (Not to be a dork, but this Aunt is one of the coolest people I've ever met, and I'm actually glad we're going to see her more.)

Anyway, there's his other family, his adoptive and step family. They are "stuff" people and show their love with gifts. Actually, sometimes I do, too. I don't really think we can take that from them, but we can certainly buy fewer gifts ourselves and show our love in our own way, be it a gift chosen for them, or a special time spent with them, and hope we can all understand each other.

I don't think Black Friday is inherently evil, but I do find the frenzy over stuff remarkable sometimes. I know lots of people who go out for the one Big Gift for the family, and I certainly think it makes sense to save money on that gift if you can stand lines at 3 am. Me, not so much. My family will just have to put up with my creative deprivation plan. :p

ITA about the gift giving for the sake of gift giving. I want THOUGHT behind it. And when someone asks what my kids would want I wish they'd take me seriously.

They think I'm kidding when I say they would love a magazine subscription. They certainly don't want a plastic tool set that they're too old for and breaks the very next day (this was ds's birthday a month ago) or a set of ABC flashcards (they both know their ABCs) but they'd love some books or even a GC to B&N so they can CHOOSE the book and if you really want to get something but can't figure it out, give them money with a note saying you want it to go to their savings, because they really do *love* saving money and it's a good practice for them anyhow.

It's not the thought that counts when thought isn't put into it. My kids are easy to please. Make them a loaf of bread or a batch of cookies and sit down and enjoy it with them, they'll love it more than a new ball or a pack of playdoh.

Anyway, there's his other family, his adoptive and step family. They are "stuff" people and show their love with gifts. Actually, sometimes I do, too. I don't really think we can take that from them, but we can certainly buy fewer gifts ourselves and show our love in our own way, be it a gift chosen for them, or a special time spent with them, and hope we can all understand each other.



If it's not something that interests with you (and IIRC your kids are old enough you can discuss it first) then can you give it to a charity or donate it to kids/families that don't have as much? That's what dd has started doing since she can understand better.


And totally OT but I went to quote you and hit edit and couldn't figure out WHAT happened and why I was able to edit your post. It was freaking me out. D'oh. I'm a mod in this forum. :hahaha:

If it's not something that interests with you (and IIRC your kids are old enough you can discuss it first) then can you give it to a charity or donate it to kids/families that don't have as much? That's what dd has started doing since she can understand better.


And totally OT but I went to quote you and hit edit and couldn't figure out WHAT happened and why I was able to edit your post. It was freaking me out. D'oh. I'm a mod in this forum. :hahaha:

hehe. You can make me say anything. :D

My kids do donate. Rowan is so funny - she doesn't get the whole back entrance thing and puts her toys right on the shelf at the thrift store to donate them. I've also suggested they don't have to rip the plastic off things they don't really want so that they can donate a giftable item to Toys for Tots or whatever. That doesn't work all that well, but it does work sometimes. :p But, really, they do get that. Patrick also just gives toys to friends after a few weeks. He's not all that into stuff (except Bionicles).

My family will just have to put up with my creative deprivation plan. :p

:drop: ;pot: :smirk:

Ok, just to amend one more time on what I meant with my offensive statement...

I was talking about people who choose to go through life on automatic pilot... A life of blind consumerism is where the 'culture' guides you.

Ok, just to amend one more time on what I meant with my offensive statement...

I was talking about people who choose to go through life on automatic pilot... A life of blind consumerism is where the 'culture' guides you.

You know, I read the Walmart post and I didn't find it offensive because that's hour it is a mere hour north of here. Seriously. Now, before I moved here I probably would have saw it as rude but ITKWYM now. :o

Where we're at now there's a bunch of "Wal-Mart sucks" and "I won't pay the Wal-Mart tax" and "Support local... boycott Wal-Mart" stickers.

Oh, presents. I forgot THAT topic. :p

We do the presents. We put a freaking LOT of thought into them, for everyone we get for, and they do the same for us (we have a small circle to exchange in). I have NEVER bought presents for the following year at the after Christmas sales, no matter how great a deal it is, because the presents I buy are relevant to individuals, and their interests AT THE TIME, rather than just some general one size fits all thing. If I see something that is perfect for someone AFTER Christmas, sure, I will buy it, but then give it to them THEN. Who wants to stuff something in a closet for a year, if you know they would love it now??

JMNSHO. :D

ETA, and we love to do things like experiences, too, that don't add anything but richness in life. :D

Yeah, learned that lesson here, Murali. My kids' interests aren't the same month-to-month. I almost never buy ahead for them or anyone else much any more. I tried with the Bionicles, and the boy does still love Bionicles, but only one of the ones I bought ahead (just 2 months ahead, at that) was on his list. Guess who needs to beg the Lego store to let her exchange a whole pile of Bionicles?

Sad thing is, I knew better. Now, if you'll excuse me, a certain red coated jolly fellow needs to go bid on a retired Bionicle on ebay....

Coming in on this late. . .
My family was one that chose the cheapest of the options to save money. It wasn't so we could have more stuff. It was so we could have anything! I don't regret my upbringing. I think that I was well taken care of. What I took from my family is how to say "no", how to avoid impulsiveness. What is a want and what is a need.

It is and still remains a SHOCK to me how other people live. I had no idea what a consumer culture was until I became an adult with buying power. I feel like an alien A LOT. I am fortunate that I have choices that my mother did not. But, I struggle with them every day.

Thrift to me means : Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
I also think a lot about : reduce, reuse, recycle (in that order)
BUT all that is within the context of our family values which for me means we don't buy the cheapest of everything but we limit our consumption. We are very different from the other suburbanites we live near, VERY different. I have realized that there seems to be a critical income levels for a family with a stay at home parent. Which we are beneath. I admit it, even if I had the money for lots of extras, we wouldn't do much of it. Part of my motivation is I would like my kids to feel they have the option of staying home with their children some day. I know many families who don't feel they have the option because of the lifestyle they have chosen, though they don't see it as a choice. I know it's a choice. I hope they will still see sah as an option, even if their family income is not the level they grew up with.

I think a lot of the consumer gluttony out there is not being able to see a few steps ahead of your purchase as well as not realizing that marketing is very very influential and knowing how that plays a part in your everyday life.

Loved your post HALO.

Thrift to me means : Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without
I also think a lot about : reduce, reuse, recycle (in that order)




Okay, jumping sideways with another opinion..:D I grew up following those rules, too, and still feel so honor bound to use them. And I am SO SICK SICK SICK of worn out, faded, beat up, but still usable stuff. My house is filled with it. Because I can't bring myself to throw out a perfectly usable colander, and buy a new one, because it works just fine, and the old one would just end up in a landfill. And I can't send it to the thrift store, because NO ONE would buy it in it's current condition. I wouldn't even have much success at the free box. So much of the stuff I own is like that, because I can't justify spending the money and resources, when what I have is still totally functional. But I am so wishing I could just move past that mindset, toss it, and buy one that feeds my soul, yk?? (and YES, a colander can feed a soul! :p )

I was rasied that way too. This is my process to deal with that and still have nice things:

My dad is a total packrat. Everything we had was a "make it do or do without" and MANY things I appriciate. Like I still use the same cast iron pans that my mom used when I was little, and I have the same couch from when I was a single mom 11 years ago, that was used when I bought it. Or the reusable cup I had from starbucks with the dragonflies and the elements on it that I used for 8 years and then broke, and then got another one and have used that one since.

BUT... There are a few things that have changed that mindset for me.

Simple. For my life to be simple I need to LOVE the "stuff" I choose to keep in it. So when I see something I LOVE, and it replaces something wornout and used up, I may get it. Sometimes. It entirely depends on my feelings, but I DO allow myself to get things to replace things that I don't love. (Or things that I love that no longer work, like that cup. I actually kept the broken one in the garage for about a year, until I realised what I was doing... 'but it was my favorite travel mug.' lol!)

The second thing that helps me get nice things to replace old and worn out is my dh. I swear, if this house was only his, we would have top of the line computer and electronics that were researched and well planned, and then plastic bottom of the line everything else (including food). LOL!

When I started to see what Don was talking about with a few things I started to apply that to more of my life. Many things didn't have to be changed... but when you use something every day and it is broken, or something you really don't like, it takes from you quality of life. Sometimes you can do without it, or get something used to replace it... but sometimes, it feels better, and is completely worth it, to get something nice, and new.

I think a lot of the consumer gluttony out there is not being able to see a few steps ahead of your purchase as well as not realizing that marketing is very very influential and knowing how that plays a part in your everyday life.

That is SO true. Good quote.

But remember I also said, "BUT all that is within the context of our family values". . . so if a new colander would feed the soul, it would feed the soul! I won't let my kids wear pants with holes in the knees, and I even have a hard time with worn out knees. Trust me, I understand. It all has to be within the context of what you value, I think.

Ok I feel bad. I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings. Maybe the three of us are still getting over our extreme upbringing, eh? I do feel all the time like I am trying to find some balance between the culture and my extreme childhood. I do feel fortunate I have the ability to make choices that my mother did not.

I have this friend who has a snowblower and my dh is very jealous because we will not have one until spring when they go on sale hopefully using the tax return but they put theirs on credit. They have many things and do many things that we do not but they will either be declaring bankrupcy or the mom will have to go to work very soon because they have almost exceeded their ability to pay their minimum payments. That is much more the kind of thing I am talking about. . . a little bit of the above philosophy would do them a host of good, instead of thinking these things are "needs".

Sometimes you can do without it, or get something used to replace it... but sometimes, it feels better, and is completely worth it, to get something nice, and new.

Yeah..I am working really hard to put this into practice. It works well when I am able to go buy it, but then when something that will work falls in my lap before I buy the GOOD one, I feel honor bound to use it up before spending money on another one. I mean, last place we lived as an apartment complex with a lot of students moving in and out, so there were always piles of stuff dumped by the trash for the taking. Household stuff. Which I would frequently need. But it looked like crap. So I would get it, cause I really did need it, but I hate it SO much, and wish I could just get past that make do and use it up attitude.

Oh, and no hard feelings at THIS end, anyway! ;) I just have opinions as usual. :hahaha: :hahaha:

Along these lines... I can tell how rarely my kids go out to stores. Today we went to FOUR stores. Groceries, Lowe's, Kohls and B&N (return). I went into Kohls to see if they have vacuums (FTR, they don't sell vacuums at this one). My kids were mesmerized.

"Mom! Look! Christmas trees in a STORE with CLOTHES!"

"Snowmen plates! Mom, did you know they make snowman plates?"

"Mom, this STORE is decorated for Christmas! I didn't think people decorated stores!"

I'm beginning to think I live under a rock with my kids. :lol:

And if anyone knows of a decent vacuum that actually takes up dirt from carpet but doesn't cost an arm and a leg, I'd love to hear it! :help: