Okay, sorry mamas, but I really appreciate and value your help, and it's helped me come a long way in my thinking (dh too) about what makes sense. However I am still not entirely convinced we should *not* do a HEL or refinance. :lol:

(edited to remove personal financial info)

I think you guys have thought long and hard enough about it that you can feel good about it. As long as the interest rate is good and you can pay early without penalty, I support you in doing whatever you decide is best. It does sound very logical.

Kerri

No real advice about the HEL, but:

Vermont winters--can you really get by without the Outback?

Tractor means doing the work yourself--would you have hired someone otherwise? Do you really want to do the work?

No real advice about the HEL, but:

Vermont winters--can you really get by without the Outback?

Tractor means doing the work yourself--would you have hired someone otherwise? Do you really want to do the work?

Good points. Yesterday I told Matt I did *not* want him selling the Outback. It is rock solid, and he has a windy 35-minute commute to work every.single.day (they almost never have snow days here!). But yes, we could. We'd get an older Outback or Legacy. With good winter tires (we could even keep our set that we bought for this Outback last winter) they are rock solid. For $4k we could get a decent older one. With the minivan, again with good winter tires we can get up and down our 3 miles of dirt roads in any weather. Just not as fast as in the Outback, LOL. But that is why we couldn't go much older on the minivan - we really need ABS braking which I believe they introduced in 2002, and I feel safer with side airbags (also introduced in 2002). So we don't want to go too far back.

Tractor means doing the work ourselves, and yes, we do - Matt can easily do it during his summer vacation. :) And looks forward to it. The other figures are a combination of hiring someone (for the grading and driveway work) and doing it ourselves but renting the equipment (bush hogging). The $1500 for driveway snow removal is to buy an ATV with a plow, or a plow truck, for next winter - a necessity if we don't buy a tractor. There is actually no one available to hire to plow our driveway! :drop: The one guy who does it up here isn't taking new clients.

And thanks Kerri. I'm the ultimate at rationalization, LOL, so I put it all out there for you guys to criticize and dissect because it really helps me break down assumptions I've made about what I think we "need." You know?

I'm still leery about adding our CC debt to the house debt but feel a lot better knowing our overall monthly outflow would be improved by selling the car.

Another factor: we are getting a property tax "prebate" that will free up another $40 a month. Yay!

Why was it that you needed a minivan? I think I'd want 2 Outbacks in your situation.

Why was it that you needed a minivan? I think I'd want 2 Outbacks in your situation.

With 2 kids who are almost 9 and 7 (getting bigger in that backseat!) plus a dog, the Outback gets really squishy for camping or long trips or whole-family outings. We could really use the extra cargo room with the rear row seat folded flat for those types of situations. And Jake's autistic, and sometimes gets in Katie's face or flails around if agitated and they're screaming at each other in the backseat before I know it. A little space would be welcome.

Also sometimes we are transporting other people's kids. There are several other families up here on the mountain and often we'll pick each other's kids up at school or after practice or whatever. I can't carpool without that third row! It would save a lot of trips and gas because I could carpool with another family for those types of things.

I've talked to the other families on the mountain who have minivans. As long as they have winter tires, they're fine on these dirt roads. For Matt, who is driving a long way each day, every day, the maneuverability is more important.

ETA, also my folks and Matt's come up for visits several times a year. It would be nice to be able to take one car on outings when they come. They could rent a minivan, but so far that hasn't worked out for various reasons.

Mmmm, I have an Outback Legacy. I think that for me I'd keep the Outback and rent things for travel and visitors and the like. It might cost more in gas to have a bigger car, and what would happen to the inssurance costs? What's the GPM for them? Also, minivans tend to be lower to the ground and there might me more risk to the undercarriage (though Outbacks are already low enough).

Yup. those are good reasons for a more spacious car, all right. :D

I keep the Expy even though I could go smaller (it's paid off and reliable - that's reason alone to keep it). But also because I frequently have extra kids here, I carpool for field trips etc, and in part for when we need to haul bigger loads of stuff (traveling and stuff). So I see your logic. I just hear all the time "you only have 3 kids - why do you need such a big vehicle?" Well, I don't NEED such a big vehicle every day, but I do frequently enough to make it worthwhile...

So I guess I'm saying I'm with ya, sister. I still don't like the idea of the HEL, but if you promise that card is in the freezer and the EF is in the bank, I won't give you any crap for it. ;)

I'm pretty anti-debt right now so I would still say no. I've gone the whole HEL(L) route before thinking it was the answer to our prayers and had it end up digging us a bigger hole. I'm trying to be of the mentality now where if I don't have the money for something, then I can't afford to buy and maintain it. But that's JMTC. :)

The only thing I keep seeing is this:

$1500 for snow removal

Perhaps I am not following well enough, but why would you need the snow removed? Couldn't you just wait two months and have the snow remove itself? LOL!

I also agree that I would get two Outbacks, or a 4wheel drive Cherokee in your situation. Not a minivan. Minivans are nice, but with just two kids and a dog, my Escape worked great. Even when Alex was 10 and Cyan was a big 5 yr old and then Cooper... our 75lb dog that we had at the time. Camping was tight, but not impossible and we only did it 4 - 10 times a year (depending on weather here) so it wasn't enough for me to get a bigger car. Now Alex, my 5 ft tall 10yr old, sqished between two car seats... that was an issue. Hence: Van. ;)

Mmmm, I have an Outback Legacy. I think that for me I'd keep the Outback and rent things for travel and visitors and the like. It might cost more in gas to have a bigger car, and what would happen to the inssurance costs? What's the GPM for them? Also, minivans tend to be lower to the ground and there might me more risk to the undercarriage (though Outbacks are already low enough).

Sorry, let me clarify.

Right now we have an 06 Outback and an 88 Toyota. Matt drives the Outback to work every day. That leaves me with an 88 Toyota Xcab (no backseat, just a space) for transporting the kids and myself. It is dying - transmission is going - it isn't safe IMO to have the kids in the front seat so I end up avoiding going out. The Outback gets 25 mpg. The Toyota gets 15-18 mpg.

We are talking about selling both cars or keeping the Toyota for farm work. We would get instead, something like a 96-98 Outback for Matt to drive, and a minivan for me to drive. The Odyssey gets 23 mpg or so - so not a big difference from the Subaru in terms of mileage. It won't be driven much - maybe 8k miles a year if that - just for me to get where I need to go, pick up the kids occasionally, and for long trips during the summer. It will cost less in gas compared to the Toyota. Insurance compared to the Toyota will doubtless go up, but ins is very cheap here.

We could drive 2 older Outbacks instead of an Outback and a minivan. But I think the insurance cost will be about the same between the two vehicles. And for the reasons mentioned above I think we'll make good use of the extra space. This is coming from a minivan hater, LOL!

Anyway I'm pretty set on the vehicle choices, but it's always good to hear others' opinions. :) Mostly I wanted to know thoughts about the HEL and whether that is a good idea.

It is true that the gas would be about the same. My mini gets about 20 mpg and my Escape gets the same. It is about the size of the engine... and they are both V6's so they both get about that. You know?

I don't know about the HEL. I have never heard of that before. What is the intrest? Does it do better than your cc's? Have you lived without using the cc's for long enough to feel as though it wouldn't just be another loan and your habits would bring you more debt? Those are the questions I would ask myself. I don't think the tractor is a good idea... but that is coming from me, who's dh is always gone and I know "I" wouldn't do that work... and dh wouldn't either. So if Matt has the summer off... will do the work... you can see uses for it in the future... and it will cost less than having someone else do it... go for it! You know? Have you thought about renting one instead? Then you could have a work party and get it all done in a week and it would cost less than BOTH options you have up there. You know?

And again... what is with the snow removal? lol...

Perhaps I am not following well enough, but why would you need the snow removed? Couldn't you just wait two months and have the snow remove itself? LOL!

Um, for next winter! :lol: We can't get in and out of our driveway with 4 feet of snow on the ground. We can't park "on the street" where they plow (it's a dirt road and no shoulder or anything). Our driveway is way too long to shovel or snowblow, and the wind blows snow right over it again within a day of clearing the driveway. Snow removal is a big thing up here. ;) Even if we park at the very end of the driveway by the road we need to dig out quite a long ways to our house.

If you don't keep up with snow removal through the winter here, you end up with a horrible mess of a driveway that you can't even fix because it's frozen all lumpy and awful.

We could hire someone to plow but there just isn't anyone. The one guy who plows up here has a truck that needs work and isn't taking on new clients.

I don't know about the HEL. I have never heard of that before. What is the intrest? Does it do better than your cc's?

Yes interest would be around 8.375% and our CCs right now are at 0 but will then go to 12 and 16% in the fall. Payment on the HEL (including money for the tractor) would be about the same as our CC minimums but we'd take 10 years to pay it off with that kind of payment.

Have you lived without using the cc's for long enough to feel as though it wouldn't just be another loan and your habits would bring you more debt? Those are the questions I would ask myself.

These are questions we have been asking ourselves. We have sat down and done a zero based budget and are sticking with it. We would have to eliminate the CC by closing them and freezing an emergency one. I am worried about racking it back up again, yes. But not sure if we're just killing ourselves in interest instead of admitting we made a mistake and needed to keep more money out from our down payment and accessing that money.

I don't think the tractor is a good idea... but that is coming from me, who's dh is always gone and I know "I" wouldn't do that work... and dh wouldn't either. So if Matt has the summer off... will do the work... you can see uses for it in the future... and it will cost less than having someone else do it... go for it! You know? Have you thought about renting one instead? Then you could have a work party and get it all done in a week and it would cost less than BOTH options you have up there. You know?

Yes. We have seriously considered renting one for a week in the early summer and getting the work done that way. Definitely another option. I think it would cost quite a bit. And we would still need $1500 (or more, they are hard to find cheap!!) to buy a plow truck or an ATV with a plow on it for snow removal. :lol:

And yeah, he has time to do the improvement type work over the summer and the motivation to do it. But, it's true there are other ways to get the work done. The tractor is not a need, but it sure would take care of a lot of true needs in one swipe. ;)

I'm pretty anti-debt right now so I would still say no. I've gone the whole HEL(L) route before thinking it was the answer to our prayers and had it end up digging us a bigger hole. I'm trying to be of the mentality now where if I don't have the money for something, then I can't afford to buy and maintain it. But that's JMTC. :)

Thanks maryalene. I am very leery about it myself. I appreciate and value your two cents! ;) I'm still perfectly willing to be talked out of the HEL. :)

First off, I'm sorry for so many detailed replies. I do find myself wanting to explain everything...it's so hard to open yourself up to have other people critique these specifics but I appreciate it.

Okay. So. I've been thinkin', while I was stomping around outside getting wood and eggs and the kids off the bus and snow in my boots. I've been thinkin' and finally it hit me. I've been thinking about this whole thing the wrong way.

We could sell the car and use that and the tax return to get two less expensive Subarus (like $4500 each). We'd have extra tax return money then. We could use it for a $500 lawn tractor (I forgot, we do need to mow at least five acres periodically this summer in addition to bush hogging about 10) and the money to rent the equipment to do the necessary grading work ourselves. Of course if we bought a couple of goats or cows we wouldn't need to mow or bush hog...but we won't go there. ;) We do NOT have the money for more animals right now.

Then we save the extra $225 a month car payment still, and can accelerate it toward paying CC debt.

We would need to figure out how to save $1500 or more from now until fall for an atv with a snow plow for the driveway or a cheap plow truck (ha). I'm really not sure how realistic that idea is but I think we could find something for that amount. At worst we'll buy a snowblower for the lawn tractor? That would be tedious but would get us through another winter and at least be functional (this winter we had an ancient $50 snowblower (a big 3 hp!!) and it died in the middle of trying to blow out 3 feet of snow after the Valentine's Day storm).

Well, if we put the $225 a month from now till then, we'd have $1575 by end of November. So there we go. The CC debt can start getting paid off then. That is right around when my 0% deal expires. At that rate it will take us five years to pay it off. Gulp, that really puts it in perspective. But we'll stick with the budget as is, build up an emergency fund as well, and put any extra beyond that of my income toward the CC debt.

So I'm seeing that you are right. Thank you Robin for pointing it out on the other thread and maryalene for your cautionary tale. The HEL is a quick and dirty way out of the pain of paying this CC debt off. I think we need to feel the pain in order not to do this to ourselves again. :wah: A hard but true realization!!


I think my problem has been assuming I don't have a way to pay off the CC debt anytime soon, so I was thinking I might as well ease our monthly cash flow problem with a lower payment and lower interest too (over a longer period of time though).

Instead I should have thought about how to pay off the CC debt in any way I possibly can. And keep the protective fortress around the equity in the house. ;)

Thanks mamas...really I'm glad I posted here so I didn't do something stupid again!!!!

I *want* a minivan but if I can get a deal on an older Outback for me that would serve our needs quite well. Plus when we switched cars because one was in the shop it would be like driving the same car. LOL! ;)