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Empathic~Heart
01-22-2002, 01:14 AM
Five Reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job!" (http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm)

By Alfie Kohn

NOTE: This article was published in Young Children, September 2001;
and, in abridged form (with the title "Hooked on Praise"), in Parents
Magazine, May 2000.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hang out at a playground, visit a school, or show up at a child’s birthday party, and there’s one phrase you can count on hearing repeatedly: "Good job!" Even tiny infants are praised for smacking their hands together ("Good clapping!"). Many of us blurt out these judgments of our children to the point that it has become almost a verbal tic.

Plenty of books and articles advise us against relying on punishment, from spanking to forcible isolation ("time out"). Occasionally someone will even ask us to rethink the practice of bribing children with stickers or food. But you’ll have to look awfully hard to find a discouraging word about what is euphemistically called positive reinforcement.

Lest there be any misunderstanding, the point here is not to call into question the importance of supporting and encouraging children, the need to love them and hug them and help them feel good about themselves. Praise, however, is a different story entirely.

Here's why.

1. Manipulating children. Suppose you offer a verbal reward to reinforce the behavior of a two-year-old who eats without spilling, or a five-year-old who cleans up her art supplies. Who benefits from this? Is it possible that telling kids they’ve done a good job may have less to do with their emotional needs than with our convenience?

Rheta DeVries, a professor of education at the University of Northern Iowa, refers to this as "sugar-coated control." Very much like tangible rewards – or, for that matter, punishments – it’s a way of doing something to children to get them to comply with our wishes. It may be effective at producing this result (at least for a while), but it’s very different from working with kids – for example, by engaging them in conversation about what makes a classroom (or family) function smoothly, or how other people are affected by what we have done -- or failed to do. The latter approach is not only more respectful but more likely to help kids become thoughtful people.

The reason praise can work in the short run is that young children are hungry for our approval. But we have a responsibility not to exploit that dependence for our own convenience. A "Good job!" to reinforce something that makes our lives a little easier can be an example of taking advantage of children’s dependence. Kids may also come to feel manipulated by this, even if they can’t quite explain why.

2. Creating praise junkies. To be sure, not every use of praise is a calculated tactic to control children’s behavior. Sometimes we compliment kids just because we’re genuinely pleased by what they’ve done. Even then, however, it’s worth looking more closely. Rather than bolstering a child’s self-esteem, praise may increase kids’ dependence on us. The more we say, "I
like the way you…." or "Good ______ing," the more kids come to rely on our evaluations, our decisions about what’s good and bad, rather than learning to form their own judgments. It leads them to measure their worth in terms of what will lead us to smile and dole out some more approval.

Mary Budd Rowe, a researcher at the University of Florida, discovered that students who were praised lavishly by their teachers were more tentative in their responses, more apt to answer in a questioning tone of voice ("Um, seven?"). They tended to back off from an idea they had proposed as soon as an adult disagreed with them. And they were less likely to persist with difficult tasks or share their ideas with other students.

In short, "Good job!" doesn’t reassure children; ultimately, it makes them feel less secure. It may even create a vicious circle such that the more we slather on the praise, the more kids seem to need it, so we praise them some more. Sadly, some of these kids will grow into adults who continue to need someone else to pat them on the head and tell them whether what they did was OK. Surely this is not what we want for our daughters and sons.

3. Stealing a child’s pleasure. Apart from the issue of dependence, a child deserves to take delight in her accomplishments, to feel pride in what she’s learned how to do. She also deserves to decide when to feel that way. Every time we say, "Good job!", though, we’re telling a child how to feel.

To be sure, there are times when our evaluations are appropriate and our guidance is necessary -- especially with toddlers and preschoolers. But a constant stream of value judgments is neither necessary nor useful for children’s development. Unfortunately, we may not have realized that "Good job!" is just as much an evaluation as "Bad job!" The most notable feature of a positive judgment isn’t that it’s positive, but that it’s a judgment. And people, including kids, don’t like being judged.

I cherish the occasions when my daughter manages to do something for the first time, or does something better than she’s ever done it before. But I try to resist the knee-jerk tendency to say, "Good job!" because I don’t want to dilute her joy. I want her to share her pleasure with me, not look to me for a verdict. I want her to exclaim, "I did it!" (which she often does) instead of asking me uncertainly, "Was that good?"

4. Losing interest. "Good painting!" may get children to keep painting for as long as we keep watching and praising. But, warns Lilian Katz, one of the country’s leading authorities on early childhood education, "once attention is withdrawn, many kids won’t touch the activity again." Indeed, an impressive body of scientific research has shown that the more we reward people for doing something, the more they tend to lose interest in whatever they had to do to get the reward. Now the point isn’t to draw, to read, to think, to create – the point is to get the goody, whether it’s an ice cream, a sticker, or a "Good job!"

In a troubling study conducted by Joan Grusec at the University of Toronto, young children who were frequently praised for displays of generosity tended to be slightly less generous on an everyday basis than other children were. Every time they had heard "Good sharing!" or "I’m so proud of you for helping," they became a little less interested in sharing or helping. Those
actions came to be seen not as something valuable in their own right but as something they had to do to get that reaction again from an adult. Generosity became a means to an end.

Does praise motivate kids? Sure. It motivates kids to get praise. Alas, that’s often at the expense of commitment to whatever they were doing that prompted the praise.

5. Reducing achievement. As if it weren’t bad enough that "Good job!" can undermine independence, pleasure, and interest, it can also interfere with how good a job children actually do. Researchers keep finding that kids who are praised for doing well at a creative task tend to stumble at the next task – and they don’t do as well as children who weren’t praised to begin with.

Why does this happen? Partly because the praise creates pressure to "keep up the good work" that gets in the way of doing so. Partly because their interest in what they’re doing may have declined. Partly because they become less likely to take risks – a prerequisite for creativity – once they start thinking about how to keep those positive comments coming.

More generally, "Good job!" is a remnant of an approach to psychology that reduces all of human life to behaviors that can be seen and measured. Unfortunately, this ignores the thoughts, feelings, and values that lie behind behaviors. For example, a child may share a snack with a friend as a way of attracting praise, or as a way of making sure the other child has
enough to eat. Praise for sharing ignores these different motives. Worse, it actually promotes the less desirable motive by making children more likely to fish for praise in the future.
*
Once you start to see praise for what it is – and what it does – these constant little evaluative eruptions from adults start to produce the same effect as fingernails being dragged down a blackboard. You begin to root for a child to give his teachers or parents a taste of their own treacle by turning around to them and saying (in the same saccharine tone of voice), "Good praising!"

Still, it’s not an easy habit to break. It can seem strange, at least at first, to stop praising; it can feel as though you’re being chilly or withholding something. But that, it soon becomes clear, suggests that we praise more because we need to say it than because children need to hear it. Whenever that’s true, it’s time to rethink what we’re doing.

What kids do need is unconditional support, love with no strings attached. That’s not just different from praise – it’s the opposite of praise. "Good job!" is conditional. It means we’re offering attention and acknowledgement and approval for jumping through our hoops, for doing things that please us.

This point, you’ll notice, is very different from a criticism that some people offer to the effect that we give kids too much approval, or give it too easily. They recommend that we become more miserly with our praise and demand that kids "earn" it. But the real problem isn’t that children expect to be praised for everything they do these days. It’s that we’re tempted to
take shortcuts, to manipulate kids with rewards instead of explaining and helping them to develop needed skills and good values.

So what’s the alternative? That depends on the situation, but whatever we decide to say instead has to be offered in the context of genuine affection and love for who kids are rather than for what they’ve done. When unconditional support is present, "Good job!" isn’t necessary; when it’s absent, "Good job!" won’t help.

If we’re praising positive actions as a way of discouraging misbehavior, this is unlikely to be effective for long. Even when it works, we can’t really say the child is now "behaving himself"; it would be more accurate to say the praise is behaving him. The alternative is to work with the child, to figure out the reasons he’s acting that way. We may have to reconsider our own
requests rather than just looking for a way to get kids to obey. (Instead of using "Good job!" to get a four-year-old to sit quietly through a long class meeting or family dinner, perhaps we should ask whether it’s reasonable to expect a child to do so.)

We also need to bring kids in on the process of making decisions. If a child is doing something that disturbs others, then sitting down with her later and asking, "What do you think we can do to solve this problem?" will likely be more effective than bribes or threats. It also helps a child learn how to solve problems and teaches that her ideas and feelings are important. Of
course, this process takes time and talent, care and courage. Tossing off a "Good job!" when the child acts in the way we deem appropriate takes none of those things, which helps to explain why "doing to" strategies are a lot more popular than "working with" strategies.

And what can we say when kids just do something impressive? Consider three possible responses:

* Say nothing. Some people insist a helpful act must be "reinforced" because, secretly or unconsciously, they believe it was a fluke. If children are basically evil, then they have to be given an artificial reason for being nice (namely, to get a verbal reward). But if that cynicism is unfounded – and a lot of research suggests that it is – then praise may not be necessary.

* Say what you saw. A simple, evaluation-free statement ("You put your shoes on by yourself" or even just "You did it") tells your child that you noticed. It also lets her take pride in what she did. In other cases, a more elaborate description may make sense. If your child draws a picture, you might provide feedback – not judgment – about what you noticed: "This mountain is huge!" "Boy, you sure used a lot of purple today!"

If a child does something caring or generous, you might gently draw his attention to the effect of his action on the other person: "Look at Abigail’s face! She seems pretty happy now that you gave her some of your snack." This is completely different from praise, where the emphasis is on how you feel about her sharing.

* Talk less, ask more. Even better than descriptions are questions. Why tell him what part of his drawing impressed you when you can ask him what he likes best about it? Asking "What was the hardest part to draw?" or "How did you figure out how to make the feet the right size?" is likely to nourish his interest in drawing. Saying "Good job!", as we’ve seen, may have exactly the opposite effect.

This doesn’t mean that all compliments, all thank-you’s, all expressions of delight are harmful. We need to consider our motives for what we say (a genuine expression of enthusiasm is better than a desire to manipulate the child’s future behavior) as well as the actual effects of doing so. Are our reactions helping the child to feel a sense of control over her life -- or to
constantly look to us for approval? Are they helping her to become more excited about what she’s doing in its own right – or turning it into something she just wants to get through in order to receive a pat on the head?

It’s not a matter of memorizing a new script, but of keeping in mind our long-term goals for our children and watching for the effects of what we say. The bad news is that the use of positive reinforcement really isn’t so positive. The good news is that you don’t have to evaluate in order to encourage.


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Aspara
01-22-2002, 01:37 AM
Thank you so much for sharing. The article gave me a lot to think about.

Becky
mother to Tasha 6/29/99
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Mrsmissy
01-22-2002, 01:38 AM
What a great read, Amy!!! Thank you for sharing it. You are such a wealth of knowledge.

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sitamom
01-22-2002, 02:34 AM
This really is a great article. See I really like what you post. This is totally in line with non-coercive parenting. Most of what I read at the nvc site you posted was very much tcs. http://www.amitymama.com/images/icons/smile.gif



<font color=purple>Sheri
<font color=black>sah-ap and beginning ncp, exbf, fb, non-vax, nc, cd, hs mom to
<font color=blue>Kyle 8/22/97
<font color=red>Gillian 3/19/99

maryalene
01-22-2002, 10:41 AM
It's an interesting article, but I don't know if I neccessarily agree. It almost seems that we're at the point where we can't say anything or do anything without somehow damaging our children. I grew up in a family where we were just expected to do good and be good. I would get all A's and never be told "good job." I knew my parents loved me and thought I was doing well in school, but it would have been nice to hear that once in a while too. I agree that we can praise too much and go overboard, but I don't think we should go to the other extreme either and give our kids the impression that we don't recognize their accomplishments. I mean, if you publish a book, how would you feel if 1.) no one said anything about it or 2.) the only thing that was said was "What was the hardest part of writing it?" or "What is your favorite character?" I can't speak for everyone, but I know i would be totally bummed if that was the reaction I received - I'd really want someone to tell me "I read it and it's great!" I think it's the same with our kids. I don't think we have to ooo and ahhh over everything but if we never say "Good Job" they might start to question whether their work really is good and whether they really should take pride in their accomplishments. Well, I think I'm way rambling now, but you get my drift. http://www.amitymama.com/images/icons/smile.gif

Maryalene http://www.amitymama.com/images/icons/smile.gif
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milo
01-22-2002, 01:24 PM
interesting, but i tend to disagree. i don't thinkrewrds or compliments are any more coervise to kids than they are for adults...for eample, my dh doesn't *just* work for the satisfaction...he works for a paycheck, and really appreciates a kudo good job...likes to know his work is acknowledged and appreciated..

i don't think a "wow. you showed up for work" would do much to encourage him...

i don't think coercion and shaping are the exact same things...and i *do* think children need shaping...

teri

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Mamaselena
01-22-2002, 01:32 PM
I think it is agood thing for children, adolescents, adults, etc to be told they did a good job:)

Its not patronizing or setting them up for a fall...

I find it a bit irritating that the author of the article finds praise to be a bad thing...

I know a lot of people who just wish they could have gotten a word of praise from their parents... and denying praise when it is earned... hmmm

If I made dinner and my husband said "you used a lot of green beans in this" I would be wondering, 'Huh"???

But if he said, "dinner was great" Or "good chicken, honey" :) That works a little better:)

Doesn't make me a praise junky, just means I like to be appreciated:)

Still, to each their own:)

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tara
01-22-2002, 10:18 PM
Hm. I've been thinking about this article for most of the day, and I can honestly say that I never thought about it before. Today I became conscious of how I praise Sam (or not) and I don't find myself saying "great job", or similar, too often. I say things more like "wow! you did it!" or "yes! that really looks like a circle!" with a lot of enthusiasm.

I guess I'd rather not consciously curb my enthusiasm. I like how Sam brings out the happy, energetic person in me, and I like showing him that I notice what a great kid he is and what cool things he does. I don't notice Sam waiting for my praise, but maybe I'm not one of those praise junkies the article describes. We do do our share of high-fives for a job well done, but normally only for things that I know were challenges for him to do.

I also like that Sam praises me. :) "You did it, Mommy, you did it!" LOL!

Tara

Scarlet
01-22-2002, 11:01 PM
I too have been thinking about this article and I tend to agree with what someone said about 1)its nice to get praise from people you love and who care about you.... their opinion matters to you. 2)while it is important to try and be as good parents as we can, I also think that sometimes good parents beat themselves up to much about how every little thing is going to destroy their children. Fact is that there are some very put together, happy, loving people who have had crappy --really crappy -- parents... and equally there are some really miserable, disfuntional people who had ok/pretty good parents.

However I also agree somewhat with the article. There are some parents who are genuinely loving, caring, kind parents who are trying their best and end up praising every single acheivement their child makes "oh wonderful honey!" "you are such a wonderful swimmer" "what lovely table laying" "you are such an amazing artist" etc all day, every day, every freaking breathing minute! I agree that this can destroy a person's self esteem ....

...this happened to a good friend of my mother's. Her mother thinks she is the most amazing person that has ever lived, that she is truly cleverer, more creative and better than anyone else. My mum's friend grew up doubting herself. She knew that she wasn't always the best, the cleverest, the most creative and so she learned that her mother's praise was empty. That her mother's praise could not be trusted. And she started to wonder that if she felt that way and her mother felt another that perhaps there was something wrong with her, not her mother and perhaps SHE had poor judgement that could not be trusted. She also grew up in fear of never quite meeting her mother's expectations and that some day her mother would realise that she wasn't 'all that' and her mother would be disappointed in her. Also that what she felt may not be valid and she second guesses herself constantly. It seems more her mother tells her how wonderful she is, the worse she feels.

So, what am I saying? Well, a balance... praise well earned, or even when someone just needs a boost is wonderful... but all the time? especially when it isn't deserved...?

Lastly, I agree that I wouldn't think much if my husband commented on the number of green beans in my stew. It vaguely smacks of the unspoken "you used TOO many green beans" sentiment whether meant or not.

--------------------------------------
My two beautiful boys
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Empathic~Heart
01-23-2002, 12:14 AM
First of all, my intent with posting this was to get everyone *thinking*. I think it's safe to say that I was successful. http://www.amitymama.com/images/icons/wink.gif I am grateful that the responses have been respectful yet honest. Thank you to everyone!

I tend to be in line with what Bethan has to say, in that it's really about striking a balance. Everyone enjoys hearing compliments and receiving recognition for what they do. But, think of how it would feel for your entire worth (and the amount of love from your family/friends) to be determined based on your performance, what you do for others, how you look, talk, walk, draw, clean, cook, parent etc. Unfortunately, this is true for some people (adults included) AND it's NOT uncommon! I know people who will do ONLY what's expected of them based on what they will get in return, whether it be praise, money, or whatever.

As far as working to get a paycheck...that's a choice that we make. We can either NOT work, and not be able to provide for our family or rely on welfare temporarily until it runs out. Our society is very much based on rewards for what we do, and most of us wouldn't do the work we do if we weren't paid. Right?

Anyway, I'm not here to convince anyone of anything...just want to offer alternatives to think about! Truthfully, the last two paragraphs of the article sum it up for me very well.

"This doesn’t mean that all compliments, all thank-you’s, all expressions of delight are harmful. We need to consider our motives for what we say (a genuine expression of enthusiasm is better than a desire to manipulate the child’s future behavior) as well as the actual effects of doing so. Are our reactions helping the child to feel a sense of control over her life -- or to
constantly look to us for approval? Are they helping her to become more excited about what she’s doing in its own right – or turning it into something she just wants to get through in order to receive a pat on the head?

It’s not a matter of memorizing a new script, but of keeping in mind our long-term goals for our children and watching for the effects of what we say. The bad news is that the use of positive reinforcement really isn’t so positive. The good news is that you don’t have to evaluate in order to encourage. "

The book Punished by Rewards is REALLY interesting if anyone cares to read further. http://www.amitymama.com/images/icons/smile.gif


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roosmom
01-23-2002, 04:20 AM
I think I'm agreeing with you Amy. My thought was that if my overall INTENT is clear eg unconditional acceptance, not trying to get ds just to meet my standards of behaviour - then praise has its place. I have to be careful not to use it as manipulation - the old carrot and the stick philosophy. I think as long as my intent is clear and clearly communicated then the praise and restraint along the way should not be out of hand.

Again, thanks for your thought provoking posts! Gets dh and I to talking about it too.

joyce

RocketScientist
01-23-2002, 11:00 AM
I agree with Bethan - there has to be a balance. My mother was never complimented by her father. Not ever. She went to great lengths to try to please him, and always felt bad when he did not acknowledge her efforts. OTOH if you're continually complimented for things you *know* you're not that good at, it becomes empty praise & you don't believe it (or in yourself) any more.

Balance is important in many aspects of life!

Margaret
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Scarlet
01-23-2002, 12:11 PM
oh also, on trying to coerce children to behave a certain way...

I think it is absolutely the job of parents to teach their children appropriate ways to behave. It is not alright to steal, it is not alright to make a mess and not clear it up, it is not alright to hurt people's feelings without good reason, it is not alright to put yourself in danger...etc etc. Sometimes (ok, a lot of times) it is entirely possible to get children to understand this by reasoning and explanation. However sometimes you DO have to pull rank.

Also I believe that everyone does things for two reasons... internal and external motivation. Internal motivation being that you do things because 'it is the right thing to do' (like I tell my son), that it makes you feel that you are a good person or that you feel a sense of pride or accomplishment. My older son and I talk about this a lot.

HOWEVER

The culture we live in also revolves a heack of a lot around external motivation (praise, rewards, money etc). We have all seen communist countries where money has not been used as a motivator. They generally end up poor and lacking essentials for life such as food, adequate housing etc. Truth is, there are many jobs in our society that need to be done but that aren't that great and people do them because they have the external motivator of money. There are things *I* do because of external motivators. If I am always totally self centred and selfish around my friends then I will not have friends for very long. I have a motivation not to steal my neighbours car not only because it is wrong and I would have a hard time living with myself but also because I don't want to go to jail -- big external motivator there for me!!! anyway I'm babbling...


--------------------------------------
My two beautiful boys
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SketchyRecipe
01-23-2002, 04:59 PM
The green beans post got me thinking.

My dh rarely praises my cooking, yet I know that he's very proud of the fact that all of our friends love to come over and eat when I cook. They would not need to praise me for what I do. Their repeat business keeps me motivated to try new things. I think that this is a good example of how intrinsic motivation can work. They could praise me to the skies, but not want to eat my food and I'd know something was wrong.

It is a very delicate balance, but I think that it's good to have the dangers of over-praising your kids pointed out.

Becky
Mom to Geneva!

<font color=purple>"Life is short and we have never too much time for gladdening the hearts of those who are traveling the dark journey with us. Oh be swift to love, make haste to be kind."
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sitamom
01-23-2002, 08:55 PM
I really don't want to pull open a can of worms. I really understand and respect other people's parenting ideas, so please let's just leave it at that. But I did want to throw in my experience.

I have to start this out by explaining why I am explaining lol. I really hate the idea that I HAVE to pull rank on my children. In a dangerous situation I will but I don't think it is very respectful.

Nobody pulls rank on me. I will heed people's advice and make my own decisions that I alone am responsible for. I trust the people around me as I hope my children trust me and my advice. If they choose not to take it then they will learn a lesson regardless of the outcome.

Anyway, I wanted to share my amazement with my son. A while ago (can't recall exact numbers, but I think it has been about a month), I started speaking to my children as if they were another adult, within a week, Kyle was coming up to me using words I had never heard a four year old use. I realized that by thinking of him as a child and treating him thusly created a child. When I started being myself he started using bigger words, acting more mature, helping me keep the house up and being a delight to be around.

My point is that we underestimate our children. We think we need to use "child" words around them and that they can't make decisions on their own, but they can. We just need to show them how. My son doesn't have to be 25 yo to know how to reason, he is capable of learning and doing it now.

Start asking your child what options s/he has in a situation. If they can't come up with something, offer your own suggestions. Talk about what possible outcomes each could have. After all, you learn more in your first three years of life than you do for the rest of your life and (IMO) they are learning who they are by finding these things out, is it better for them to find out who they are now rather than going through that pubescent identity crisis we all went through?

<font color=purple>Sheri
<font color=black>sah-ap and beginning ncp, exbf, fb, non-vax, nc, cd, hs mom to
<font color=blue>Kyle 8/22/97
<font color=red>Gillian 3/19/99

Scarlet
01-23-2002, 10:23 PM
ok here are examples when I have 'pulled rank' recently.

5 YO tries to run in road to retrieve ball. I catch him in time but he yells at me, struggles and tries to do it again. I catch him and try and explain but he is in a single minded 'I have to get my ball despite oncoming traffic. I ask him to go in the house. No response. I tell him to go in the house. No response. I tell him that he is being unsafe and either he must walk into the house or I will carry him. He has a problem with impulse control but that is ok. He is 5YO and is learning it gradually.

Same 5YO can list you the reasons why I require him to use a car seat and I explain that I love him and that it is my job to keep him safe. He can also talk how upset it makes him when his friends don't use a car seat. He however sometimes refuses to wear it and claims "its my body, I don't have to wear it". I have a good (adult) friend who used to not wear her seatbelt also, I also pulled rank. "I'm sorry X, I have a rule that no-one rides in my car without a belt on. No exceptions." She replied that she was an adult and I answered that yes, that was true and she could do what she liked in her own car.

My 14month hits when he is frustrated or cross. We have a sign for gently and I acknowledge his feelings and tell him that he needs to be gentle with mummy. I try and redirect his hands to thumping a pillow instead but he will usually try to continue to hit and scratch me. If he continues then I lift him off the bed (or wherever we are).

"Nobody pulls rank on me. I will heed people's advice and make my own decisions that I alone am responsible for."

If you were in my house and continued to hit me you can be dang sure that I would ask you to leave and if you didn't we would ask the police to remove you. If you were in my car and didn't wear your seatbelt then I would not drive you anywhere.

"Start asking your child what options s/he has in a situation. If they can't come up with something, offer your own suggestions. Talk about what possible outcomes each could have. After all, you learn more in your first three years of life than you do for the rest of your life and (IMO) they are learning who they are by finding these things out, is it better for them to find out who they are now rather than going through that pubescent identity crisis we all went through?"

Firstly we didn't all have pubescent identity crisis. I was and have been very secure in who I am (o: My only crisis came when I was bullied and tormented at school.

You are also assuming I don't already talk about outcomes and options. At this very moment my 5YO is unloading and reloading the dishwasher. He is doing it to earn money to replace the light fixture he broke this weekend. It was his idea that we bought another and my idea that he earn the money (he wanted me to pay for his mess and I said no). It was also his idea that we go to Home Depot to find out how much he needed to earn.

"We think we need to use "child" words around them and that they can't make decisions on their own, but they can. We just need to show them how. My son doesn't have to be 25 yo to know how to reason, he is capable of learning and doing it now. "

My 5YO reasons very well and is very comfortable speaking with adults. Today he initiated a conversation about sympathy on the way home from school. Oh and he knows what "initiated" and "conversation" mean, although he still has trouble with 'tomorrow' and 'yesterday' .My 14 month old already knows what happy, sad, grumpy and cross mean. He can sign some of them and will answer yes or no to questions about them.






--------------------------------------
My two beautiful boys
http://www.mywahbiz.com/~scarlet/beautifulboys.jpg

maryalene
01-23-2002, 10:23 PM
Hi Sheri,

I'm posting with the utmost respect for your opinions, but I also feel the need to state that I don't know why some feel that "pulling rank" is a bad thing. We're parents - it's our responsibility to ensure our children's safety and to maintain order in our households so that our children can learn and grow.

I do believe that our children may understand a great deal more than we give them credit, but I do not believe that they are willing or capable to do what is right. My almost three year old is a good example. Tonight while cooking on the stovetop, she wanted to touch the skillet. She kept putting her finger near the skillet saying "This is hot - this will give me an owie." We've talked about hot pans and she knows why she shouldn't touch them, but she insists on trying. She's just too immature to control impulses. It's my responsibility to put my foot down and send her to the other room until I'm done cooking. I could let her "live and learn" but I don't know what sort of mom that would make me.

Another example is my co-worker's 16 year old daughter who met a 24 year old online and wanted to visit him in another city. My co-worker's dilemma was that her daughter had done everything she could have asked for - taking a friend, letting her call the boy's mom beforehand, giving her an agenda for the day - but co-worker couldn't think of a good reason to deny her the trip. The obvious thought on my mind is why don't you just tell her that as her mother, you don't think it's appropriate for 16 year olds to date 24 year olds.

Final example, when I was 16, DH and I planned to get married. We had money saved, both had jobs, knew where we would live, were signed up for pre-marital classes, everything. My dad put his foot down and said absolutely not - he told us he would support us in a few years after I had at least two years of college but would not consent then. And you know what? He was right. Even though I felt so prepared then, I look back and realize that DH would never had made it is we were married when I was 16. The fact is my dad knew more and had personal experience on what it takes to get married and have it work.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I really, really feel strongly about this. As parents, we have the knowledge and the experience to help our children be successful in life. Yes, we should talk to them. Yes, we should rationalize with them. Yes, we should teach them how to reason. But when push comes to shove, we have to make the tough decisions. Democracy does not work in families. I've seen it too many times growing up and now that I'm older. Friends I know who grew up that way have weak relationships with their parents and no ability for self-discipline. Even if a six year old knows he needs the four food groups to grow and be strong, he'll still probably chose hot dogs every night for dinner if given the choice.

We do need to help our children learn to control themselves and to make positive decisions but that means helping them get there. I think letting kids free reign to control their own destiny is doing them a huge diservice.

Off my soapbox now....

Maryalene http://www.amitymama.com/images/icons/smile.gif
Mama to Madeline (3-13-99) and Donny (10-26-00)

my.tupperware.com/maryalene (http://my.tupperware.com/maryalene)

sitamom
01-23-2002, 11:43 PM
Scarlet,
It seems that I have really upset you and I apologize. As I stated, I respect your choices parenting but wanted to offer some of my revelations.

In reponse to your hypothetical situations or recent experiences, running into the street is a dangerous situation. I would and have also grabbed up my children to prevent death and injury. Have you showed your 5yo what happens when a car runs over a can or bottle? Maybe this is an experiement he might like to repeat for a refresher course?

Riding in a seat without a carseat is (IMO) dangerous as well. And if they choose to not want to go for a ride then they can stay home. Why should I have to drag them in a bad mood around. I hated that when I was younger.

The 14mo hitting is not necessarily dangerous. You said you gave him a pillow to puch, but didn't explain if you held it for him? Sometimes we all get frustrated and what better way to get it out than physically? I love (or used to http://www.amitymama.com/images/icons/wink.gif) running when I am upset. Maybe 14mo wants the interactivity of having someone hold the pillow for him or maybe redirecting to a pillow fight he would find enetertaining, or one of those clown punching bags.

I wouldn't stand for someone purposefully scratching me (unless I asked them too lol). Is there something else you can offer the child to give the stimulation of scratching? Maybe a nail file or learn together what it feels like to scratch different fabrics. When we were couch shopping I loved scratching the fabric. Guess I am wierd.

If someone were in my car I would expect them to wear a seatbelt because I am not ready or willing to accept the feelings I would have with seeing someone fly out my windsheild if there were an accident, but that is a hypothetical.

That is cool that you didn't experience any identity crisis. But I can tell you that most of the people I went to high school with did have it.

I didn't mean to insinuate that you weren't already reasoning with your children. I am sorry if I wrote that out in a bad way. I am certainly not very good at writing things out well. I can't even get them into spoken word a lot of times!

I hope this clarifies a little better my intent of what I wrote.


<font color=purple>Sheri
<font color=black>sah-ap and beginning ncp, exbf, fb, non-vax, nc, cd, hs mom to
<font color=blue>Kyle 8/22/97
<font color=red>Gillian 3/19/99

Scarlet
01-24-2002, 12:42 AM
Hi sheri, thanks for the apology. I was upset. It was because I felt you were making assumptions about my parenting without really knowing me or my children.

My five year old unfortuantly knows very well the consequences of car accidents as a friend of ours has a brain injured child due to a car accident. We have together followed her progress since the accident and talked about it. The little girl in question was close to death for some time and we lit a candle for her every evening for several weeks.

This is the trouble. He knows logically the reasons behind our rules but has not yet matured enough to control his impulses all of the time.0000000000000 (Rohan is helping me)

In answer to your questions, no I don't hold the pillow, but I do model the behaviour and make the same grunt of frustration he does when he is cross. Then I take his hand and do it with him and then sometimes he will do it himself. Sometimes he is just really cantankerous though and doesn't want to know, he is angry at me -- e.g. I don't want to nurse him and he is cross that I'm offering a drink or cuddle instead.

"Why should I have to drag them in a bad mood around"

LOL this happened last night. Joshua was in a really grouchy mood and verbally lashing out at everyone. I suggested a few things to him to help him improve his mood, but the more I said the more I was big bad mummy. We were going out for dinner to his choice of restaurant but I told him that while I was sorry he was feeling so crabby, I would not be taking him out while he continued to be unpleasant to everyone around him. Surprisingly he decided that it was worth sorting himself out rather than staying home with a babysitter and missing a trip to Dennys!

--------------------------------------
My two beautiful boys
http://www.mywahbiz.com/~scarlet/beautifulboys.jpg

sitamom
01-24-2002, 12:43 AM
I will start out with my hope that you read my above post. Maybe that will clarify what I wrote a little better since it apparently did not come out right.

I agree that we do need to keep our children safe. I never meant to imply that we didn't.

Have you ever wanted to twiddle your fingers through the open flame of a candle? Or seen anybody do it? They know that it is hot and it can hurt them but they still want to experiment with how much heat they can handle or how much pain they can handle. I don't think the situation has anything with her immaturity but rather her wanting to experiment with heat. That would make you a mom that trusted her child to know what the child could handle.

What is wrong with a 16yo dating a 24yo? I dated a 21yo when I was 16. And when I was 19, I was seeing someone who was 32yo. Men my age have always seemed too interested in other things to me. I can understand the mother having fears about it but what is behind it? The daughter really wants to experiment with sex or is she mature for her age and wanting to be with company that is interested in the same things? It doesn't mean that the intentions of either party is "bad".

As for your early marriage, you really don't know if it would have worked and had it not, you would have learned some valuble lessons. My sister got married when she was 16 and learned many a lessons about marriage and (may I announce) is happily engaged and ready to commit and make it work.

Our children have innate knowledge to succede and survive and thrive and learn. IME no person can eat hotdogs everyday of their life, but hey there is protein, fat and carb. It will keep your body going. My children have always eaten really well, but for istance, my dd has been asking for eggs for breakfast every morning, what's wrong with that?

I don't understand what exactly you mean by your friends growing up in a democratic household so I can't really comment on that.

Your sentence about your children's destiny is not very respectful at all. What I read into what you wrote is very much along the lines of 1950's thinking 'that you will be what I tell you to be'. Please correct me if I am wrong. In the end it will be their decision.


<font color=purple>Sheri
<font color=black>sah-ap and beginning ncp, exbf, fb, non-vax, nc, cd, hs mom to
<font color=blue>Kyle 8/22/97
<font color=red>Gillian 3/19/99

maryalene
01-24-2002, 11:34 AM
Sheri,

I think we have very different thoughts on how children learn and grow. I truly believe that children need boundaries and it is our responsibility to set and enforce those. I know that I'll probably be flamed for this but in a lot of cases I think parents know what's better for their kids. In my marriage example, sure I could have gotten married, I could have learned a lot of "life lessons," I might have been miserable the whole time too. My dad spared me that. Why would we not want to share our experience and knowledge with our children - which to me is what we are doing when we "pull rank." To me, not pulling rank is like handing your child a telescope and saying "go learn about the universe." They'll spend all their time re-learning discoveries that have already been made instead of building upon that knowledge. I apologize if you think it is disrespectful, but I do think environment plays a huge role in a child's success in life. I do believe that children are born with an innate desire to succeed and flourish in life, but how they are nurtured, especially when they are very young is going have a huge influence on whether they can reach their full potential. Anyways, I did read your original post before I wrote my response, and I apologize if it didn't sound like I understanding you. I have a miserable cold and my head's a bit fuzzy. I just wanted to clarify where I stand (although I think I might be off on a tangent now). This is probably an "agree to disagree" situation.

Maryalene http://www.amitymama.com/images/icons/smile.gif
Mama to Madeline (3-13-99) and Donny (10-26-00)

my.tupperware.com/maryalene (http://my.tupperware.com/maryalene)

Mrsmissy
01-24-2002, 03:16 PM
**My point is that we underestimate our children. We think we need to use "child" words around them and that they can't make decisions on their own, but they can. We just need to show them how. My son doesn't have to be 25 yo to know how to reason, he is capable of learning and doing it now. **

This is the first thing that jumped out at me though. Why do we need to force a young child to have the same thoughts as a 25yo though? My son is 5.5 years old. I want him to be 5.5 years old. I want him to jump, run, leap, giggle, snuggle. I want him to call me Mommy for quite a bit longer. I don't underestimate what and who he is. I live in the now for him. He wants to learn about space. Sure, there are many books that 25yo people could read, but not appropriate and scary for a 5.5 year old. Heck the first time we looked through a telescope and saw Jupiter, he was freaked out and thought Jupiter was landing on earth! After explaining how the telescope worked (in 5.5 year old terms), it was so much fun to see the awe in his eyes about the infinite size of the world we live in.

While I am very respectful of my children (most of the time, at least), I celebrate their childhood and allow them to stay children. Too often these days are children forced to be adults; thus, children are making adult decisions, like sex, drugs, alcohol, and violence. I am enjoying their childhood, singing the children songs, doing puzzles, playing games, even talking the "baby talk" with both kids, who giggle and snuggle with me when I DO do that. I think it reminds them of a time of comfort and security. Heck, I still like to call my mom Mommy every once in awhile, especially when I'm sick. And, I'm 32!!

OK---just my opinion on the above statement.

<font color=red>Missy</font color=red>

Change the world---
Nurture a child

sitamom
01-24-2002, 07:33 PM
Missy, I think that statement was again misunderstood. I never meant to imply that I was or am taking my children's youth away. Quite the opposite, I am letting them have it to do what they feel they need to do with it.

That's funny about your son and his first telescope experience. My children have been exposed to skywatching, tlelscopes and binoculars so we never experienced that. But if they were to be afraid of something and couldn't comprehend what I was speaking of, of course I would change the wording to help them understand. I may know a lot of big words but there are many times that I need someone to explain something in simple terms for me.


<font color=purple>Sheri
<font color=black>sah-ap and beginning ncp, exbf, fb, non-vax, nc, cd, hs mom to
<font color=blue>Kyle 8/22/97
<font color=red>Gillian 3/19/99

sitamom
01-24-2002, 07:47 PM
Maryalene,
Why would you be flamed for that?? I would think everyone here would be respectful of a parent's choice to choose their own parenting style. I hope you don't think I was flaming you. My intentions were simply to point out another theory. A different perspective.

When I first read about tcs, I thought it was crazy. I thought, 'no way am I giving up control of my children'. Everybody has different beliefs in how to raise their children and as long as there is no physical or mental abuse, I can respect their choices. I am certainly not a perfect parent. TCS requires a lot of thought and in a tight spot, I do not produce the best ideas. But I am learning a lot from Dave who does think well fast.

Again, I do apologize if you felt I was flaming you. I understand you are making the right choices for you and your family.


<font color=purple>Sheri
<font color=black>sah-ap and beginning ncp, exbf, fb, non-vax, nc, cd, hs mom to
<font color=blue>Kyle 8/22/97
<font color=red>Gillian 3/19/99

maryalene
01-24-2002, 09:07 PM
No, I didn't think you were flaming me. http://www.amitymama.com/images/icons/smile.gif Sometimes I just get the feeling that "authoritative parenting" (for lack of a better term) is not always well received here. (I wasn't really worried about you flaming me - just flames in general). Like I said, I'm a bit under the weather today and maybe feeling a little touchy. Thanks for sharing the info on tcs. I've read a lot about it but don't necessarily agree. It is food for thought though. Have a good evening!

Maryalene http://www.amitymama.com/images/icons/smile.gif
Mama to Madeline (3-13-99) and Donny (10-26-00)

my.tupperware.com/maryalene (http://my.tupperware.com/maryalene)

Freckle~Face
01-25-2002, 06:04 PM
ITA Maryalene. There is a fine line that we as parents walk between allowing children to exlplore and learn and also protecting their safety and providing a secure, stable foundation upon which they can confidently base their decisions as adults. I see so many parents not protect their children for fear of "dampening their spirit" or whatever else they call it, only to end up with a teenager or adult who has no idea how to make good, self-respectful decisions and end up hurting themselves all the time and not understanding why bad things happen to them all the time--it's because their parents didn't demonstrate enough care for their childrens' well-being to set limits so that the child would learn that what seems okay isn't always ACTUALLY okay (like the child who thinks it's no big deal to start a fire in the backyard with matches because he/she will just put it out when they're done, not understanding at that age that fire has a tendency to get away from you, etc, etc.). Children learn how to make good decisions by watching us help them make good decisions when they are young and ALSO b watching us overide their bad decisions if/when necessary, gradually allowing them to experience more and more independence as they show more readiness for it.

BTW, I don't think Maryalene meant "you'll be what I tell you to be" by her sentence regarding their destiny--I think she was referring to their immediate destiny, not who/how they should be for the rest of their lives.

Genevieve

"Gorgeous" to Jack, "Momma" to Rose,
"The Boss" at www.CuddleWraps.com (http://www.CuddleWraps.com) Happenin' Hip Huggers and Cool Contours Organic Cotton Diapers

<font color=purple>"A person's a person, no matter how small!" ~ Dr. Seuss</font color=purple>

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Empathic~Heart
06-16-2002, 07:46 PM
:)