I would like to discuss the belief that one is ****ed if they are not "saved".
(I wish i was more eloquant so forgive me if i ramble:lol: )


I do not believe this because my heart tells me differently. I just can't believe that indigenous tribal people who have never been made aware of christianity or converted to christianity are somehow doomed to hell. I think they are closer to g-d and g-ds intended ways for human kind (caretakers of the earth,living in harmony with nature,not reliant on external material 'things' etc) my heritage on my fathers side is native american/ojibwe and it is because of christianity and this view that their slaughter was justified in the name of "my religion is right and you are heathens! convert or die" mentality. How can a religion that supposedly teaches right from wrong justify such obvious evil in the name of itself?
I also think that the bible itself is 'tainted' in that it is merely an interpretation by 'man' and that there are huge gaps purposely left out to further an agenda by certain men of that era to justify keeping woman under a certain level of control and to make war (most wars of yesteryear and today have religion at the core,not saying christianity is the only culprit, just one of,but discussing christianity in this instance). Ok I just want to have a discussion (not a piss off a bunch a people in the process) so like others on the forum tonite, I limited it except I am limiting it to non -christians only(or christians who would like to discuss in a friendly manner:) ). Thanks!

I also want to say that i am not limiting the conversation on these 2, just those popped into my head first...

After being raised Catholic, then moving away from religion, then attending Southern Baptist churches, and now not attending any church, I am so unsure of what I believe.
I asked that very question of my last pastor, and he told me that I was thinking emotionally, like a human, and not like God would think. So I wondered why God even created people whom would have *no* chance of hearing the Bible. Of course, the answer I always got was, "Well, that's what the Bible tells us, and we will know everything once we get to Heaven."
Not to start trouble, but I don't think that is a good answer. So, you don;t know and can't tell me, we'll just wait to get to Heaven..and if I'm wrong it won't matter because we'll be dead. I know that's not a very well written post, but that's the sum of how I feel lately.

After being raised Catholic, then moving away from religion, then attending Southern Baptist churches, and now not attending any church, I am so unsure of what I believe.
I asked that very question of my last pastor, and he told me that I was thinking emotionally, like a human, and not like God would think. So I wondered why God even created people whom would have *no* chance of hearing the Bible. Of course, the answer I always got was, "Well, that's what the Bible tells us, and we will know everything once we get to Heaven."
Not to start trouble, but I don't think that is a good answer. So, you don;t know and can't tell me, we'll just wait to get to Heaven..and if I'm wrong it won't matter because we'll be dead. I know that's not a very well written post, but that's the sum of how I feel lately.
well I just believe if we stop questioning we stop living and just become drones...

Well, pseudo-Christian here, but my personal belief is that

well,

I don't know if there is a heaven, but I certainly don't think that there is a hell.

but, pretending that I thought that there was

I think many things, but mostly I believe that all faith-traditions I can think of have at there core to be good people and treat others with love, respect, and dignity. So, I believe that "salvation" (if you will) comes from being a good person to others - regardless of who one follows.

I do believe that they are all different paths that teach us how to be good people. Which one you pick is up to you.

Well, pseudo-Christian here, but my personal belief is that

well,

I don't know if there is a heaven, but I certainly don't think that there is a hell.

but, pretending that I thought that there was

I think many things, but mostly I believe that all faith-traditions I can think of have at there core to be good people and treat others with love, respect, and dignity. So, I believe that "salvation" (if you will) comes from being a good person to others - regardless of who one follows.

I do believe that they are all different paths that teach us how to be good people. Which one you pick is up to you.

yeah,me niether

I don't know. It was drilled into me that there is a Heaven and a Hell...but I don't want to try to believe something just so I avoid Hell. (Speaking for myself only) The thing I was always told at the SBC was that salvation depends upon accepting Jesus as the savior and good works would follow because no true Christian wouldn't geniunely *want* to do good works, but that good worls without Jesus were meaningless. I guess that was the whole point of the Bible? To believe in Jesus as the son of God? That he died on the cross to wipe out our sins that were brought on by Adam and Eve, original sin? I guess I still live in fear that "God's going to get me."...
I never understood how one book could have *so* many interpretations..and who is correct? And if it's the same book, how is it that people seem to interpret it so differently? Who knows which interpretation is the right one? Does it even matter if all those people believe in Jesus and God? It's all so confusing!

Another way of thinking about hell is to think of being far from God. That doesn't have to include fire and eternal ****ation.

I was going to post this in the other poll/thread. If we are all God's children, it makes no sense that so many of us would be doomed beyond our control just because of where we are born or live or how we are exposed or not to Christianity. I mean, even the Veggietales say, "Our God is the God of second chances!" LOL. So I believe that there are many paths to God, but that Christianity is true and the path I follow. But there is truth and light in all faiths, and God knows our hearts.

Kerri

great...now you have me singing that song...

"our God is the God of second chances... "

another veggie tales song stuck in my head for the next three days

Another way of thinking about hell is to think of being far from God. That doesn't have to include fire and eternal ****ation.
That's right. SOme say Hell is the absence of God. Logically then, if God =love, the the absence of love would be hell.
How true is that?

Another way of thinking about hell is to think of being far from God. That doesn't have to include fire and eternal ****ation.

The original post said Christians could comment if we discussed in a friendly manner, so I'd like to respond.

There is a bible verse that clearly describes hell as fire and eternal seperation from God. If you don't believe what the Bible says, thats fine, I just wanted to let you know that there is a description in the Bible that describes the fire part.

Luke 16: 19-31

There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

As far as I'm concerned, the bible is a pretty much a history book and social commentary.

I spent much more time listing all the things I was doing wrong and ways I was screwing up when I was a Catholic.. I'm much more comfortable in my own skin now.

I think that the perception that one needs to be saved implies that there's something wrong with you.. and really, there isn't. I believe that each person has a path to walk through this lifetime.. and it's not the place of any other in this world to tell someone that their path is "wrong."

As for heaven/hell.. dunno. I'd think of hell as more lonely and cold than anything else.. but I simply don't know.. and that's okay. :)

That's right. SOme say Hell is the absence of God. Logically then, if God =love, the the absence of love would be hell.
How true is that?


I like that! That's probably the closest I'll get to religious reasoning ;)

I was raised Catholic but definitely view myself as agnostic, same as my father.

I believe in responsibility of self and respect of others if that makes sense. That is my church, if there were such a church.

The original post said Christians could comment if we discussed in a friendly manner, so I'd like to respond.

There is a bible verse that clearly describes hell as fire and eternal seperation from God. If you don't believe what the Bible says, thats fine, I just wanted to let you know that there is a description in the Bible that describes the fire part.

Luke 16: 19-31

There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
thats *if* you believe evrything word for word what the bible says...giving the bible verse as an example does not prove anything.
As I stated before do you believe a book that is written by men (imperfect men) supposedly with divine influence-g-ds' (but are supposed to be his *word*), but knowing that parts have been left out and things perhaps added in *not* from the divine but from man and you don't know which is truly which...and they claim all of it is g-ds word and you know darn well it isn't?? For me I take the good and reason the rest in my head to what makes sense for me. I cannot and will not be a drone with no ability to question or reason..
This is what I am asking,knowing this, doesn't it make you want to question or do you just except it as is and don't question? this I cannot understand..
that said there are MANY things written in the bible which I believe to be true and historically correct. its just all the little things that don't add up that I question...
Ok if you understood that you get a cookie..

Some random thoughts for the morning:

To me, the bible verses above are GREAT for attracting poor people into your church, because they get to fantasize about the rich people burning in hell while they luxuriate in heaven. Not very nuanced, but effective.

Also, on the topic of biblical infallibilty. I've often heard people criticize Catholicism (for many reasons, but let me pick on just this one right now) because of the concept pf Papal infallibilty. First of all, this is actually a myth. The Pope is NOT "infallible" all the time. Only in certain circumstances, and only concerning matters of "faith and morals". Here is an explanation from the Catholic Catechism:

889. "In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a 'supernatural sense of faith' the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, 'unfailingly adheres to this faith.' [LG 12; cf. DV 10.]"

890. "The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms."

891. "'The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,' above all in an Ecumenical Council. [LG 25; cf. Vatican Council I: DS 3074.] When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine 'for belief as being divinely revealed,' [DV 10 # 2.] and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions 'must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.' [LG 25 # 2.] This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself. [Cf. LG 25.]"

2035. "The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed. [Cf. LG 25; CDF, declaration, Mysterium Ecclesiae 3.]"

2051. "The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Pastors extends to all the elements of doctrine, including moral doctrine, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, expounded, or observed."

Now, how do people assume that the men who wrote the bible were infallible and merely transcribing the Word of God, who was there talking to them, telling them the whole thing, and not accept that maybe the Pope sometimes has this same priviledge (direct and infallible communion with God)?

I understand the the confusion arises mainly from the erroneous idea that the Pope is ALWAYS infallible (he is NOT), but would those who claim that the bible is the infallible word of god still object to an occasionally infallible Pope? Just wonderin'...


Also, to address the actual OT here, the idea that certain individuals think I am going to hell is something that really bothers me and alienates me from Christians (not all of them, just those who think this). Except the Amish. I know they think I am going to hell, but I still have a soft spot for them.

I try not to think about it too much, though. I believe in reincarnation, so I know I can always do better next time!

The original post said Christians could comment if we discussed in a friendly manner, so I'd like to respond.

There is a bible verse that clearly describes hell as fire and eternal seperation from God. If you don't believe what the Bible says, thats fine, I just wanted to let you know that there is a description in the Bible that describes the fire part.

Luke 16: 19-31

There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Just an FYI, but the bible is filled with symbolism, so just because it talks about fire doesn't necessarily mean that it represents a LITERAL fire. Could very well be a symbolic fire.

But, I know that my interpretation will mean nothing as I know that you believe the bible - even with all the various translations - to be literally true in every word. So, I'm just stating my point of view.

I would like to discuss the belief that one is ****ed if they are not "saved".
(I wish i was more eloquant so forgive me if i ramble:lol: )


I do not believe this because my heart tells me differently. I just can't believe that indigenous tribal people who have never been made aware of christianity or converted to christianity are somehow doomed to hell. I think they are closer to g-d and g-ds intended ways for human kind (caretakers of the earth,living in harmony with nature,not reliant on external material 'things' etc) my heritage on my fathers side is native american/ojibwe and it is because of christianity and this view that their slaughter was justified in the name of "my religion is right and you are heathens! convert or die" mentality. How can a religion that supposedly teaches right from wrong justify such obvious evil in the name of itself?
I also think that the bible itself is 'tainted' in that it is merely an interpretation by 'man' and that there are huge gaps purposely left out to further an agenda by certain men of that era to justify keeping woman under a certain level of control and to make war (most wars of yesteryear and today have religion at the core,not saying christianity is the only culprit, just one of,but discussing christianity in this instance). Ok I just want to have a discussion (not a piss off a bunch a people in the process) so like others on the forum tonite, I limited it except I am limiting it to non -christians only(or christians who would like to discuss in a friendly manner:) ). Thanks!


This belief is one among many why I'll never be Christian. I can't believe in my Heart that any deity that created all that exists, or ever will exist, would da*n their child/creation. Sorry. I don't buy it.

But hey -- I'm a Pagan, and I simply don't believe the Universe works that way anyway. :)

To each their own!

As a Christian, here's what I believe and understand as truth:

God created the world and everything in it including humans.

Humans chose to take control of their own lives (the lure of the fruit of the tree was to be like God and to know good and evil even when God told him NOT to touch it).

From that disobedience, all of humankind was tainted with sin and that sin separated us from God - it's OUR chosing, not His.

God, in His kindness and grace, provided a way for those before the Messiah came to atone for those sins through sacrifices.

He then sent His Son to die as the ultimate sacrifice so that all mankind's wrongs are paid for.

With this payment for our sins, it's our choice to accept this gift of grace from God or to not accept it. Nothing we can do can earn it but we need to accept it as the gift it is and have our relationship with God restored to what it was like before the fall.

As for those who 'have never heard about Jesus', God is a just and fair God. He would not condemn anyone unfairly. The Bible DOES talk about how all of creation points to God - Romans 1:18-23 says "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles."

It says that "what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them." God will reveal Himself to everyone and if He reveals Himself, then it's up to the person to make sure that they answer God. If someone has truly never heard about God or that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, God will not condemn them because they haven't said a prayer and become 'born-again' but will judge them on what has been revealed to them and how they responded. I've heard of tribes that were visited by missionaries who WERE worshipping God, even though they had never been exposed to the Bible and such. I have faith that God is good and my finite mind cannot comprehend hearts but God can. If He decides that someone should be condemned to hell, then He has a good reason for it.

Ann

Well since the OP asked about people who aren't christian, I"ll give the Q a go.

For me there isn't "heavan" vs. "hell" there is "end" vs. "repete".

I think there is definatly an end to the unsavoriness of life (specifically by following the eight fold path). When we don't fully follow the path we will have a chance to repete until we do reach a level where we can follow it to the fullest. Once we reach that level we reach the end & are released from having to "do over". We can move on to enlightenment or some have choosen to remain & lead others along the path. It's nice in a way because I know that I"m not going to get this try perfect, but I"m hoping to do better. That's the best we can all hope for, doing better than we have before.

Chole

I always want to be a christian, but it never works out.
As a Christian, here's what I believe and understand as truth:

God created the world and everything in it including humans.

Humans chose to take control of their own lives (the lure of the fruit of the tree was to be like God and to know good and evil even when God told him NOT to touch it).

From that disobedience, all of humankind was tainted with sin and that sin separated us from God - it's OUR chosing, not His.
This thinking is a huge stumbling block for me. I rarely make it past Genesis, b/c that God just seems like a real jerk. (I was told to only read the NT and I really dig Jesus, but if I follow him, I'll have to be a Jew, since he was a Jew, and Judaism isn't my thing, either. Although, I love all the ritual! Back on-topic...)

How could anyone say it was our choosing, when God put the tree there? Why would a loving God put a tree in our home, then tell us not to eat from it? Sounds like a set-up to me. Is God anti-humans-having-knowledge? Some ppl interpret that as God not wanting us to have to experience pain, but it was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Without one, the other does not exist. Are we to believe that A&E were just living, with no joy, prior to eating from the Tree? Does God just want to be some authoritative being that tells the dumb humans what to do, no questions asked? If so, why give us free-will? Again, sounds like a set-up to me.

From Genesis, we get the impression that God was a being with a physical body. That he alone was allowed to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. That he created A&E as company for himself.

Another problem I have with that whole story is the fact that the Bible says we were now (after eating from the Tree) "like one of us, knowing good and evil". So, then, we are gods, right? What else could that possibly mean? And, who is with God, that he refers to them all as a unit ("us")? Some folks say that's the Holy Spirit and Jesus, since they have always been, but that sounds questionable, since if Jesus was supposed to be the Messiah, he would have been named there, a book in the Torah.

Also, after A&E ate from the Tree of Knowledge, God said he didn't want them to eat also from the Tree of Life and live forever. That implies a quite stingy God. Only he is allowed to live forever and have knowledge of good and evil? What makes him so special? Just b/c he was there first?

The Bible disappoints me. God sounds very immature, like a petulant child. I find Jesus invigorating, but the symbolism in the Bible is too anti-woman. For centuries prior to Judeo-Christianity, the snake was a symbol of fertility and wisdom and there, with one story, the snake (and women) becomes vilified.

God, in His kindness and grace, provided a way for those before the Messiah came to atone for those sins through sacrifices.
It reads to me more like God was covering his butt. But, then, if we're to believe the Jews, Jesus did not meet many of the qualifications to be considered the Messiah. And, I would think they'd know more about that than the early Christians.

I've now lost my train of thought. I'll be back. LOL

A lot of early Christians were Jews, and considered themselves so.

I meant the early Christians who would have actually considered themselves Christian and not Jewish. There was a point where it became an obvious difference.

I don't know what I think about the Jews who disagreed about Jesus being the Messiah, except that I've read some of the qualifications and they had/have a very good point.