How do you know when it's time for a 3 year old to go to bed?

Last night, Cole and I spent a couple of hours together by ourselves, so he got lots of momma attention. We read books, we put jammies on, we brushed teeth, and he was in a really good mood, so I thought I'd let him stay up a little longer and snuggle, talk and read another book. Then when I say it's time for bed, he starts making every excuse in the book, "I'm not tired, I need to go potty, I'm hungry, I need a drink, lay with me..." literally like 10 excuses all at once. So I know he's just trying to stall... I take him to bed, and it get worse, crying, screaming, general unpleasantness... 3 minutes later he's passed out. Obviously tired right?

The night before, I had knitting after work, so I didn't get home until 8:30, so he stayed up even later, so he could spend time with me before bed. Around 9:15, I put him to bed, and he doesn't through a fit, but he lays in bed humming, thrashing around, talking for at least 30 minutes. Not tired?

We try to be pretty consistent with bed time and routine. He's usually in bed between 8:30 and 9:30(rarely that late).

How do you know when it's the right time, between not tired and overtired?

is he still taking a nap? savannah will sometimes take a nap now....and when she does she's not tired at bed time. every day is pretty different...depending on the level of activity/exercise she's had. also, if we ride in the car in the middle of the day she will often fall asleep so that affects it.

in general i think if you have a routine that helps tremendously. so they know when x,y and z happen it's time for me to go to bed. savannah doesn't get a bath every night but she does get her pjs on just a short while before bed. she also gets to watch one tv show (usually little bear or backyardigans) and then she gives everyone kisses, picks out whatever toy animals she wants to take to bed and either dh or i walk her upstairs. then she potties, gets in bed, we read her one story and say our prayers. she gets the humidifier on and her cd of lullaby music. it's the same routine no matter what time she goes to bed.

At 3, each of my boys was in bed between 7:30-8 and slept until 8 a.m. They didn't nap regularly at that age, although they often fell asleep in the car. I really am a firm believer in chidlren getting enough sleep, and at that age your child needs an average of 12 hours total sleep.

My experience has been that when you overshoot bedtime, the battles, stalling and difficulty falling asleep start. So even now, if the boys (6 and 7) are showing signs of being very tired (cranky, whiny) we'll send them to bed a little early. Last night they were whiny on the way home from BMX so we had them in bed at 7:45, and they fell asleep easily and slept until a little after 7 this morning. Some BMX nights we've let them stall and get them to bed closer to 8:30, and then they'll jabber and play for another 30 minutes. Of course, they start the next day tired.

yes...savannah gets about 11 hrs a night and sometimes an extra hour nap

I would say he normally sleeps from 9pm - 7:30am and he still naps (usually easily) for 1-2 hours. He does take a nap quite late in the day (2-4pm). My husband is in charge of naps, so I'm not sure if there's much I can do to change that.