this woman comes over to my house today. She lives in the log cabin that we pass on the way to the land/camp we're buying. I always look at it and go, wow, that is one amazing house. It looks out over the valleys and mountains; it's a bit higher up on the hill than our land and has about 6 acres of cleared pasture, a big workshop/garage, a chicken coop, a barn. It's amazing.

She comes over today to say that she is selling her log cabin and the 25 acres it's on and she wanted to let us know because she had heard through the grapevine that we were looking for a place.

She's asking about 3x the cost of the camp and 12 acres that we are under contract to buy. And it's an incredible deal at that price.

Here's the thing...no matter how cheaply we build on the 12 acres, it is going to end up costing us as much - in fact, more - than what she's asking. But we were going to do it mortgage free over years and with this cabin, we'd have to have about a $500/month mortgage payment. Still affordable for us though.

This land is 2x as much acreage and it's all set up to have animals...which we were considering doing. Our land would cost a lot of time and money to set up that way.

The log cabin is still pretty small, about 950 sf, but workable for now and we would consider maybe adding on in the future. The kit itself costs $24,000; we called today to ask, LOL. It's five years old. So the septic is new...all these costs that we have on the other land are already taken care of.

Here's the log cabin: http://www.northeasternlog.com/homeplans/cumberland.php

What would you do? We have to make a decision quickly. We're a little afraid that maybe she'll change her mind. That we will back out of the camp deal, lose $1000 possibly, and then she'll decide not to go down to Florida to be with her dh (that's why she's selling, they were going to split up and now they aren't, apparently) or something else will happen.

We considered, even, buying both the camp and the log cabin. One whole side of the 12 acres adjoins this 25 acre plot. Isn't that amazing? And once we did that we could bring power to the camp a lot more easily. We could use it as a guest retreat for our parents. But we really can't afford to do that. The other advantage is once you have 26 or more acres you are eligible for a farm exemption on taxes, but this log cabin is only on 25 so they miss it by one acre. If we owned the camp too the whole acreage, minus maybe one acre for each house, would be taxed at a lower rate. We considered asking our parents if they wanted to buy the camp, too; but are not sure if they would want to or if that is a good idea.

a) what does your heart tell you to do?

b) if it were me. . . I would do what it took to buy both. If things became too tight, I'd sell off all but 26 acres (I'm assuming that if you owned both plots, you could sell a portion of one of the plots rather than have to sell the entire plot).

Buy both !!! .. With good deals for both .. and land prices going up.. that way you can keep people from getting to close to you if you want .. and not only that , but later when your children are older you could split the land for them to build on if they would want to

My Great grandfather did that .. gave land to his children.

a) what does your heart tell you to do?

b) if it were me. . . I would do what it took to buy both. If things became too tight, I'd sell off all but 26 acres (I'm assuming that if you owned both plots, you could sell a portion of one of the plots rather than have to sell the entire plot).

you took the words right out of my mouth!

Wow Lauren! Buy both - owner finance the other for us - and keep the extra acre you need for the farm exemption.... :)

That is so exciting for your family.... We hope to be able to come by and see you all soon!

It was great meeting you!
Warm wishes,
Tonya

I would buy both if you could swing it.

if not, honestly, i'd look into buying the property that is all set up. how cool!!!

you make me want tp pick up and move there!

just from reading your post...it sounds like you REALLY want to live in the one that is already set up. just what i get from what you typed....but i agree..if there is any way to buy both that would be really cool!!!

I'd go for both.

I'll buy the cabin on 25 acres if you don't. :joker:

the tax savings on buying both might be helpful enough to help swing the smaller mortgage on the undeveloped property. I'd get both, too. It'll be worth it, don't you think?

Is it your dream to build?? Is it something you really really want to do??

We are about to build on some land and I'm not sooo sure anymore...so, I think I've convinced dh to move to Hawaii for 2-3 years and just to *sit* on the land.

I wouldn't buy both...that's just me!! I'd buy the cabin with the 25 acres!!!:)

Thanks for the input everyone.

Both. :monkeydan Plus, I don't think it's that easy to get out of a purchse and sales agreement.

I know having both sounds fantastic, but what is the real goal Lauren? If you go for the bigger acreage with house, you get a mortgage. Will you and Matt ever get to realize your dream of both writing? Will he be tied to the school district for the next 30 years?

What is enough? Which parcel helps fulfill your dreams? Short term, the bigger acreage with cabin is more liveable, but what do you want long term?

I know having both sounds fantastic, but what is the real goal Lauren? If you go for the bigger acreage with house, you get a mortgage. Will you and Matt ever get to realize your dream of both writing? Will he be tied to the school district for the next 30 years?

What is enough? Which parcel helps fulfill your dreams? Short term, the bigger acreage with cabin is more liveable, but what do you want long term?
:ditto:

I wish I had more time online to really follow what is going on but from what I have gleaned, I have to ditto what KimberMama said. Plus I'm looking at this whole thing from my own filter and experience which currently has us trying desperately to get out of debt so we can realize our dreams. (I think I'd do about anything to avoid any kind of debt) But that is my own "filter" talking.

gosh I wish I had more time here like I use to when I was at-home all the time!!

Michelle

sitting here just laughing after being a little puzzled......my name is tonya too & i kept seeing you refer to me & thinking, "uh, what did i say? have i been drinking?" then i realized knittingmama is the tonya you kept referring to;)

ROFL, colesmama/tonya...I scrolled through and noticed that and was like "whoa!" I didn't realize there were 2 Tonyas. :)

I know having both sounds fantastic, but what is the real goal Lauren? If you go for the bigger acreage with house, you get a mortgage. Will you and Matt ever get to realize your dream of both writing? Will he be tied to the school district for the next 30 years?

What is enough? Which parcel helps fulfill your dreams? Short term, the bigger acreage with cabin is more liveable, but what do you want long term?

Kimberly, these are just the kind of questions we have been grappling with. To be clear, our plan is not to keep both, most likely.

If we go for the bigger acreage with house, yes, I think it does fulfill our dreams for the long term. We will be able to fix up the camp, sell it for a profit, lower our taxes by about $2000/year by annexing a couple of acres from the camp, and when we sell the camp, lower our mortgage to a point where we can double payments and have the entire thing paid off in ten years - and Matt at this point feels comfortable committing to teaching that long. We'll end up with a small mortgage, not a monster one. But for as long as we hold onto the camp, we'll have a big mortgage unless our income increases.

It's just a different way of getting to our dreams, I think. Either one will work for us. The small camp/acreage means commiting to a lot of unknowns and a lot of time/energy/labor (which takes away from time writing, too). Yes, it means mortgage-free, but with buying it cash, we don't have enough money to fix it up to a long-term state without Matt's teaching income for at least five, and probably ten, years. That is reality.

It is a lot to think about. We have by no means made a final decision. But after nonstop considering all angles since yesterday, I'm leaning toward buying both with the eye to using our labor to make some money on the camp by reselling it once it's improved, but keeping the acreage we need to get into the current use program.

Stop! Go talk to the planning and zoning department. You may not be able to combine and subdivide like you want. What if the one extra acre can't be combined with the cabin lot and you have to pay taxes on both. Sometimes you can't sell only 10 acres or it costs alot of $ to subdivide it through the planning and zonning commision. I worked as a building permit technichian while I was in school. Sometimes these things can be a pain and cost a bundle to do. It would be worth it to find out first.

It sounds exciting to have both, but don't get pulled into something over your head. I ditto the above poster and make sure you can do what you want.

If it does work out for both cool. If it doesn't I would take the more set up land. Than the money "later" can be paid just like the remodels etc you were going to do on the other land, and it can all be put towards your home where you are already decently comfortable. Plus with the size down you would have from the sale of the last house, you can really get a low interest rate anyway... check out your options. You have such a barining chip with your $$ and equity that you really have to be selective of the banks you decide to go through. Work for the deal you want. They won't just offer you something that is a super low interest if they can talk you into giving them more. ;)

BTW... I live with my two kids and dh in 900 sq ft. It is a compact space, but not bad. You have to find ways to utilize ALL space and keep a very close eye on your clutter, but it is completely do-able. When you add to the family, you will most likely have to add on to the house, but for now I really think you will find the planning for the smaller space and the decluttering to move there easy and refreshing for the most part.

Val

Buying them both, adding, and subdividing is no problem. There is no planning and zoning department. It's one guy, Eric, and we met him yesterday and talked with him...this is uh, how do I say it, a very very small town. ;) A building permit is $50. It's all very mellow. Anyway I have a lawyer and will be calling him tomorrow to make absolutely sure, but I don't anticipate it being a problem. People do stuff like this here all the time.

Thanks for weighing in Val. :) I went there today and can totally see the space working...

While I would be totally tempted, I have to agree with Kimbermama & Michelle. Building a home is a huge commitment and much more difficult that many people realize, especially when you are not building it for *you*. It takes away family time, children time and hobby time and if it's your first time building it will probably require a bit more $ than planned because mistakes are almost inevitable.

As I told you, DH and I are in a similar situation and so we were pondering the OP last night and this morning, discussing what we would do in the situation and we both decided we would probably go with what we could pay for out of pocket. We're tired of working for others, putting $$ in other people's pockets and taking from our own and ultimately that's what a mortgage does.

Do you have a need/reason for a large amount of acreage? Have you taken into consideration how much you will be taxed once you sell the re-zoned parcel? Is the housing market in the area a buyer's or seller's market? What is enough for your family? Much of what I am thinking is probably stemming from reading Rich Dad, Poor Dad (lol) but I can see why they say mortgages/homes are not assets, they are liabilities because people use emotion to purchase them and spend $ (mortgage, property tax, mortgage interest and the cost of repairs) and then instead of having an asset it becomes a liability. All of this was mine and DH's thinking after reading the OP.

:ditto:

I wish I had more time online to really follow what is going on but from what I have gleaned, I have to ditto what KimberMama said. Plus I'm looking at this whole thing from my own filter and experience which currently has us trying desperately to get out of debt so we can realize our dreams. (I think I'd do about anything to avoid any kind of debt) But that is my own "filter" talking.

gosh I wish I had more time here like I use to when I was at-home all the time!!

Michelle

Hey Jenni, thanks for contributing your thoughts. I really have been reading and listening to every single post on this thread. It has given me a lot of food for thought.

As the emotions settle, and after I went there yesterday, I'm just not so sure what we're going to do. I could go on and on about my thought process, but I've already rambled enough. I'm going to make some calls today and do some serious thinking. I'll post updates when I know what we are doing!

Wow, Lauren. What a difficult decision to make. I can see us in the same boat. LOL

After thinking about it overnight, I think *I* would personally go with the original plan because paying cash only and being out of debt would mean more to me in the long run than having the dream house. I know in my own experience, the "dream" wears off when you look at the interest you are paying every month and the lack of freedom a mortgage brings etc...

It would be a really hard decision though, because I LOVE log cabins and because I want a LOT of land, as a barrier and to hand down to our children when they are ready to build as well as to farm.

But, I think I would still go with the small cabin/10 acres.

Hugs and best wishes in making a the best decision for *your* family. :o)

Aileen

Knowing the time and effort involved in clearing and building, and that you have only small children, I would at least go wtih the existing home if it's one you see yourself in long term. If it's something you truly love and have room to grow into.

Could you ask the sellers of the other land if you could apply the $1000 toward buying just that acre? lol Could you rent out the cabin? May I put in my reservation for a month in the spring or fall? :)

I wanted to thank everyone for replying. It's really tough, I realized in hindsight, to ask for others' opinions, when everyone has such a different outlook on mortgage vs. no mortgage, whether they could see roughing it or building on their own, etc. ETA, because it came out sounding ungrateful, that still, everyone's thoughts were incredibly helpful and gave me new ways to look at things. But looking at this from all angles...

The first point we came to was to decide that buying both was too risky, too difficult, for us to swing financially and energy-wise. It was really way too much money, and the power problem is not as easy to solve as we thought. So we had to decide between the "camp" or the "cabin" - as I have been calling them. It was really tough.

Remember, this is all couched in a requirement we have to stay in this town past May, when our lease expires on this house. Otherwise my son, who has autism, will have to move schools, and we really want to avoid that. It's taken this long into the school year, but he's finally talking at school and really thriving there, and change is just a really bad thing for him. So we're limited in our choices. Even if the bubble bursts, more than likely, not being in an overvalued market up here, we won't lose more money than we would renting for another year, if we could even *find* a rental in this town, and then we would have to move yet again. My dd is already having a hard enough time with this move. I want to avoid that if at all possible.

And this town is 600 people and not all that many houses. I believe it is the smallest, or one of the smallest, in Vermont in terms of amount of land in the actual town. It's a small slice where most Vermont towns are like a square shape on the map.

What I'm saying is if we had another piece of land to buy cash and build a temporary shelter on, then build a main home on slowly and with cash on hand, we'd probably do that. But that option isn't available except with the camp.

It turns out, that the people who own the land between the camp and the road, and at the other side of the camp acreage, are not the nicest people in the world (all town talk/gossip). They have tried to prevent the guy who owns the camp from getting to his place by piling snow in the road and just generally being jerks. It also turns out that to get power to the camp we'd need their permission. My lawyer never liked that this camp was accessed via a ROW, because although legally you have the right to get to your land on the ROW, the nasty neighbor can make it difficult for you. He also feels that new owners often inherit the problems that the old owners faced, and he's had a lot of cases where this exact thing has happened and the new owners are harassed just as much as the old owners.

We were still looking at whether buying both and carving them up so that the camp has direct road access would work, but it is going to take a lot of time and money to figure that out. We figure maybe the people who buy the camp will be interested in negotiating something with us so they can get power more easily, and maybe that's a possibility for the future (ie trade them road frontage/acreage for the same amt of the back of their property + 2 acres so we can get the exemption). Otherwise, we'll just keep our eyes open for acreage to add to ours for the exemption, or just keep it as it is. This piece has nearly half a mile of road frontage so we can also sell off a triangle shaped piece at one end of it for someone to build on if we needed the money toward the mortgage at some point. There are a lot of possibilities.

So what we decided is that the camp is not the right piece of property for us to go mortgage-free with. Right now the log cabin and 25 acres is looking really good. It is small, but we are planning to expand into the basement for sewing and play area, and just keep things really really simple. We've just gotten spoiled, I think, and used to living in a really big space; our home in Florida was 1900 sf and the one here is over 2000, I think - it's really big and rambling and I've totally let clutter and stuff get out of control. Partly because I knew we were moving and I didn't even fully unpack.

The really cool thing? The lady who owns the cabin turns out to be super sweet...down to she is replacing the countertop and asked me what color I wanted :)...and introduced me as the new "lady of the house" to the countertop measuring guy. And Katie went there with me yesterday and we scoped out the incredible sledding hill and went down to the creek and it's all just really, really beautiful. There's about an acre of yard fenced with deer fencing so I don't have to worry about my little wanderer, with seven or eight big boulders for them to climb on and jump off of. Then there's the sledding hill and the creek...the other way is the greenhouse and established garden beds. There's a chicken coop and pen for them, and a cow shed for up to four cows. Plus a 24x30 garage/workshop on a slab with a woodstove in it. It's pretty much a dream homestead.

On top of that, the owner wants to move pretty quickly. I think she's feeling pretty lonely and wants to be in Florida with her husband again. It's likely we'll close in a month or two, and then we'll be able to do a slow move over there. What I'm planning is to set everything up in the house the way we want it, almost like we're packing for a trip as far as clothing and toys. It's about a two minute drive from here. I will set things up so that there is just plenty of space. Anything we "need" we can drive back over and get. ;) After a month or two I'm planning on having a big ol' yard sale in April or May, and spreading everything that's left out on blankets in the yard here at the old house. Goodbye clutter! :cuc: Seems like a really streamlined way to go about decluttering to me!

I'm really happy about the house, although a little sad about not getting to a mortgage-free state right now! Dh and I have talked extensively though and we both feel this is a comfortable price for us. Yes, it's a dream homestead for us, but it's a very modestly priced home for what we're getting. We're not overextending ourselves on a monthly basis. There will be plenty of money for food, gas, car repairs, and saving. We will need to be on a budget, but we should be anyway!

Whew, and that's my monster update. :cuc:

sounds great! i think you're going to be very happy there!

Sorry I didn't reply to you. I was about to then saw that you had replied here. I'm glad this is working out for you, it truly sounds like the best thing for your family. It sounds very beautiful there. :happy:

Good luck with decluttering! Since we're most likely moving into a smaller space we're working it so that our two share a bedroom (bunkbeds when ds is a bit bigger) and so that they only require a small dresser and hang the rest of the clothing. We're hoping it will create more space. THere's the only idea I have so far. :p

sounds like you did your homework & made the best, informed decision!!!

congrats on the new place! i'm sure you will be very happy there! it sounds like somewhere i would LOVE to live! how about some pics sometime??

Jenni - good ideas. Ours already share a room - there is no way for each to have his/her own room in this cabin - well, there is, but it takes away significant living space. We'll have about a 10x12 master bedroom, and they'll share an 18x20 loft - so it's big, but it doesn't feel it because the roof slopes steeply so the ends are quite low. I was planning on building shelving into those ends, so the long walls will have low shelving just built in somehow. That's for toys and baskets that hold Katie's clothes (she has four). She has a few things that hang and I'll possibly get an IKEA wardrobe for hanging for her (there are NO closets at all). For dh and I we are going to use the dresser we already share, a high dresser, and then maybe get a wardrobe again to supplement. We're also going to massively declutter clothes.

We're considering bunkbeds but they like to sleep together, yet Katie is asking for her own bed. So maybe one of those with the double bed on the bottom and single on the top? Not sure yet.

Pic is attached. :D It's not a very good one, just out the car window. It's been snowy since then but I'll get a better one soon.

I have friends who bought land with a 500sq ft home on it, downsized and then a few years later built a stunning 6000sq ft home/office on the other side of the property. The original home is their foreman's home now.

They are vinters in Napa.

Congratulations on your choice! I think you made a good one! I hope to build and have rooms w/ the attic space w/ sloped ceilings, I've always loved that! I've been decluttering b/c my girls share a 10x10 room, doable, but crowded. They are too little to have bunk beds, so we have twin mattresses on teh floor (baby sleeps w/ us, but her diaper changing station is on her bed :LOL ). I've goe to 7 play outfits, 7 good outfits, and toss the rest! We have one closet and one dresser, and I'm thinking of getting a different dresser b/c this one just isn't right for us. I've been considering just getting a bunch of those cloth baskets at Wal-Mart, and building shelves all accross the one bare wall, and putting the clothes that are currently in teh dresser in baskets on the shelf, as well as toys and books, too.

i am so happy for you and envious...wishing you well~how exciting. so glad owner is a sweetie. I pray she remains that way:)

wow! good for you for making it through all of that tough thinking and coming up with a plan. i know you HAD to, but still...there was SO much to consider.

Thanks Stephanie...it was a lot, and my house is a wreck because all I've done is take care of sick kids (both my kids have strep throat, yay) and try to figure this out...in fact, that was part of why in the end, I said we just *had* to only buy the log cabin vs. both. I didn't think I could stand going through all the uncertainty and stretching us to the max financially at the same time. It was exhausting. I'm actually looking forward to "just" having to get approved for a mortgage, get the contract written up, get the house inspected, etc. LOL. That seems like an easy task in comparison with either building an entire home, significantly renovating an existing one, or trying to finagle both houses!

Lauren,
Sounds like everything makes perfect sense, and how exciting - the log cabin sounds really great - all set up for many homesteading skills....

The decision making process can be very daunting, but also useful to really hash things out and learn more about yourselves and what you want as a family, priorities, etc...

We are going through this very same process in our lives, and continue to do so as we work towards our land.

Warm wishes,
Tonya

Warm wishes,
Tonya