OK, this has been bugging me for a while since the 9/11 incident, and now that there are all these lawsuits against travel companies for racial profiling, etc, I'm just going to throw this out there.

Since the 9/11 attacks, I have not seen any protests on the part of "moderate" or alternative believing Muslims that say hey, we promote peace, our religion is not one of hate, and our misguided brothers and sisters are victims/followers of a bunch of fundamentalist deranged leaders. You get my drift. Every now and then I hear of a suicidal Jew or a suicidal Sikh blowing up some bus or mosque or temple. But it seems Islam is a religion that can be easily distorted or at if not distorted, then one that preaches that it is ok to hurt/kill/maim non-believers because they are doing harm to the Earth and moreover, actually be rewarded by Allah.

Now, I also know the reality is that Muslims make up a large part of the developing world where poverty is rampant. So, when people are poor, easy to manipulate beliefs and get them to rise up against whoever. Speaking of which, in Africa, there is a lot of poverty too, and I don't hear too much of a suicidal maniacal killer coming from there either.

I really wish a Muslim person would help me understand why their religion still has so many of these schools that seem to teach nothing but hatred for non-believers, and even taking it one step further and say to eliminate the non-believers. Secondly, I wish a Muslim person would help me to understand why I don't see more protests among shall we say, moderate Muslims, or at least Muslims that don't believe that way. I mean, if Catholics decided one day that every non-believer was a devil incarnate and decided to kill indiscriminately, wouldn't you think Protestants or other groups would make it known that that is not what all Christians believe in?

Thousands of years ago, the Christians engaged in same type of Crusades, killing non-believers etc, but seems they have developed a better understanding of the Bible and word of God. Oh, I know, we still have fundamentalist Christians in the US who are really borderline racists and if it weren't for the laws, they probably would kill a few non-whites themselves but when that does happen, look how quickly other Christians speak out.

Rambling now. but it bugs me because some Arab Americans are victims of racial profiling, say they are being discriminated against etc. That is sad but hey, if they don't speak up to the contrary, I can only think that maybe in their heart they believe the terrorist message is correct, only maybe the means was wrong. So to the day to day issue, why should a grandma from the midwest be searched as thoroughly as a single Arab male trying to get thru security on the airplane? Because that is what our values in this country stand for, equality for all? But the reality is, 19 men of very similar appearnce undertook a cowardly, dastardly act, so of course if I were waiting to get on a plane, I'd be eyeing the Arab, not the grandma from Iowa!

(that said, I do know that there are people like Timothy McVeigh, and many others so our vigilance can not be just focused on Arabs or Pakistanis, etc).

Just wondering and trying to understand.

Judy
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Couple of brief points:

Just because the media chooses not to show "moderate" Muslims educating the public about their beliefs and seaking out against the atrocities committed by other Muslims does NOT mean it isn't happening. The media shows you want they want you to see. HAve you been to a mosque in your area? I'd be willing to bet that they had seminars, lectures, etc about the differences between Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims and what happened on Set. 11. You have to make the effort to understand--you cannot expect anyone to come to you and explain all of this to you. It just doesnt happen that way.

>>Now, I also know the reality is that Muslims make up a large part of the developing world where poverty is rampant. So, when people are poor, easy to manipulate beliefs and get them to rise up against whoever. Speaking of which, in Africa, there is a lot of poverty too, and I don't hear too much of a suicidal maniacal killer coming from there either.<<

Regarding AFrica: have you heard of the only man the US is currently prosecuting in raltionship to the attacks? Moussaoui I believe is his name--he's MOroccan. African.

Secondly, being poor doesnt have anything to do with how easily someone is manipulated--the implication here is that money equals intelligence, and while you may not have meant that, such classism is prejudicial, and isn't going to help you undersand the broader picture. The fact is, it doesn't matter how well educated or how rich people are to be amnipulated. Remember the THird Reich? Many of their members were not poor or undereducated, and yet we sit back and say Hitler maniuplated them. It happens. People believe what they want to believe. This isn't a class problem--this is a human race problem.

www.Mothersmagic.net (http://www.Mothersmagic.net)
Goddess Religion, Theology.
Educate and be Educated.

Hi,
thanks for getting back to me.

Well, I know our media can be very skewed, but I still am very surprised at the lack of vocalism among moderate or alternative thinking Muslims. There are lots of Sunday morning news shows, there is Larry King. Heck, in the Bay Area, people are very open minded and a whole neighborhood got together to support an Arab coffee shop owner that was a victim of a hate crime and the news showed that.

What I mean is the educated Muslims that do the talk circuits, really surprised not seeing any of that on the news and as Jewish leaning as our media is, I still think there are outlets that would let these Muslims represent their view.

Secondly, what I meant by Africa is, non Muslims. I don't see non Muslim Africans, Hindis, Buddhists engaging on suicidal missions. Only Muslims. And these Islamic schools are all over Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc. This nut case from Africa that got arrested, guess what, he is Muslim. He is not practicing some native African religion.

As for poverty, what I meant is, look at the world. Hey, when I have a roof over my head, food to eat, etc, we can all be friends. Start taking away my food, take away my shelter, take away my livelihood, all of a sudden people start looking for ways to group together and distinguishing themselves, whether it is along ethnic lines or religious lines. Does anyone really believe the tensions in Northern Ireland are over religion? When I was younger I thought so and couldn't undertstand why if Catholics and Protestants believed in the same God, why they kept killing. Well, alot of it has to do with that oil in the North Sea and the British ain't giving it up. And so the economic issues and political issues start cropping up, and religion, organized religion is a very powerful way to divide people, to manipulate people.

So, yes, I think poverty is a very real catalyst toward manipulating people. Its not that these people are stupid, but when you are all fighting over the last piece of bread or roof over your head, it becomes really easy to start saying, hey its the Jews with the money, or the Chinese or Indians with money, and hey, they don't even believe like us. Let's get them! This may be simplistic, but I look at Yugoslavia. Under communism, the dictatorship of Tito and his military kept everyone in check, but also, no one group was better off than any other (other than the ruling class vs common folk, but it wasn't along ethnic or religious lines). In fact, there were alot of interracial and interreligiou marriages. Then communism fell, capitalism and free markets and kind of a each man for himself took hold. Within a few years, Muslims were fighting Orthodox Christians vs Catholics or Bosnians against Serbians against Croatians. I haven't really read as much as I should on this area but I suspect alot of it has to do with economics, then of course, the natural lead in to politics. Sarajevians prided themselves on being interracially mixed, interreligiously mixed (if thats a word, LOL) and whew, within a few years, people were turning each other in.

Anyway, I still am perplexed. I truly believe Mohammed the phophet, and Allah, His God, would never ask people to kill in His name. He could wipe us all off this earth in one nanosecond. But just really surprised at the lack of vocalism amongst Arabs. Could be their culture. In any case, it would be to the Arabs/Muslims benefit to use the media as an educational outlet.

And I do know, a racist can be rich or poor. Its just a lot easier to be manipulated when you don't have money or food. Its a lot easier to be independent when you have your own means and don't need to depend on anyone or interact with others.



Judy
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AGain:

Just becuase you're not seeing the backlash in the Muslim community doesn't mean it wasn't happening. Why didnt you see it on LArry King or other shows, for example? I'll tell you why. How do these shows stay on the air? Advertisers. And I'd be willing to bet that no many advertisers were interested in giving money to shows who has Muslim guest speakers. BEcause while the vast majority of Muslim (especiallyin the US) are peaceful people, we dont want to hear about that. That's not entertaining news. That's not controversy. That's boring. In other countries like England and Canada for example, where yo udon't have *nearly* the commercialization of the news that you have in the US, there *was* a lot of news time dedicated to the Muslims who spoke out against the terrorist acts. I remember watching several shows on the BBC that talked with different Muslim leaders about the reaction to what happened. But you don't see that in the US because that's not sensational enough for us. You'd be *amazed* at what we don't see in the US news becuase it's not econimically profitable to show.

I understand what you're sasying about other religious groups appearing more peaceful when compared to the ISlam that we see on television. Couple of points to consider though:

1. Islam is the second largest religion, and perhaps the fastest growing religion in the world. There are a lot more Muslim out there than darn near anyone else, thus increasing the chances that there will be more extremist Muslims.

2. Islam is a relatively new religion when compared with Judaism and CHristianity. Christianity, when it was as young as Islam, was committing pretty horribly violent acts against non-Christians, too. We can only hope that as the religion devlops and matures, its more violent factions will tend to die out and be replaced by the bulk of what Islam is, which is a religion of humility and submission.

3. This is really related to number 1, but I have to reiterate: just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening. No, you don't have native African tribalists bombing US soil, but you're kidding yourself if you think intra-tribal friction/murder/war/etc doesn't exist. Of course it does. But its on such a small scale compared to Islam that we don't see it--plus, we aren't affected by it, so why broadcast it on the news? You really have to stop and think, "Do these things not exit, or am I just not aware of them?" That's really the key.

www.Mothersmagic.net (http://www.Mothersmagic.net)
Goddess Religion, Theology.
Educate and be Educated.

I am nak right now, so I will be brief. NPR on Talk of the Nation has done a number of shows that relate to Islam and its beliefs. Even our mainstream media here has pointed out that suicide is forbidden by the Quran (this caused problems during the investigation of the EgyptAir 990 crash) and that Muhammed himself said the supreme jihad is fought against one's own will.
Also, as far as moderate Muslims speaking out, here in the Boston area, they participated in post 9/11 peace vigils, and went on record stating that theirs is not a religion of hate.
I don't know where you are, so things are likely different in your area -- maybe there are not many Muslims to speak out? Maybe the media is more of a US right or wrong ilk and are not really interested in any sort of pro-Islam appearance?
Anyway, inform yourself. I agree with the mama who said to call your local mosque. Our local Islamic Society is doing a presentation on Islam this month, but it's not been very well publicized. THere may be a similar organization in your area.


libby
<font color=green>mama to Hunter Robert 9/9/98</font color=green>
<font color=blue>and to Andrew Paul 2/13/01</font color=blue>

Ditto in Connecticut...We've had an abundance of religious "teach-in" services going on since 9-11. I guess that's just the Northeast for ya!
Maybe look into alternative news sources, even beyond NPR? I can send you some great non-corporate news links if you'd like. Just pm me.
I won't touch the profiling question... Makes me a little mad; I'm likely to say things that could come across as inflammatory and mean. But I think libbylibbylibby has good suggestions for you.

<font color=red>In Sisterhood and Solidarity~
Rebecca
Proud socialist mama to Sky(gonna be an engineer or a teacher or an artist or a riveter like Rosie)Amethyst 7-5-96 and Hunter(the red diaper baby himself)Memphis 3-4-01.http://www.amitymama.com/images/icons/smile.gif</font color=red>

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At the risk of getting flamed here (but isn't that always a risk?) I have to agree with you. I listen to NPR religiously (no pun intended!) and while I have heard media reports of some muslim leaders denouncing the 9-11 attacks, IMO, their denounciations have been far and few between and always qualified with references to the "frustrations" Muslims have. As you pointed out, many people in the world are poor and have frustrations, but they don't go around blowing up innocent people. If poverty and frustration were an excuse for what they have done, why don't we see more terrorists from REALLY poor countries, like those in sub-Saharan Africa?, or Haiti? In fact, most of the terrorists were middle class, and the country that contributed the most terrorists to the 9-11 attacks is wealthy Saudi Arabia. I don't think poverty has anything to do with it.

What bothered me, in addition to the religious zealots who did these terrible things, was that in countless interviews I heard and read (NPR, newspapers, magazines, websites) there was real admiration for Bin Laden and his ilk among supposedly "moderate" Muslims all over the world. They may not approve of his methods, but they admire him for "standing up to the USA" and for his religious zeal. IMO, that is disturbing.

To give you an example of a different response to religious-inspired terrorism;
A few weeks ago, two wacked-out Jews in CA were arrested and charged with plotting to blow up a mosque and the office of an Arab-American congressman. Jews and their leaders immediately, unequivocally and unreservedly denounced them and made it clear that they did not represent even a small part of the mainstream Jewish community. No one qualifed their response with platitudes about the frustrations Jews have felt or the injustices done to us historically. No one even hinted that they had the least bit of sympathy for these guys. They were completely shut off from the Jewish community, no Jews went to their defense. No Jews suggested that these terrorists were targeted for surveliance unfairly because they were Jews. Jews agreed that these were miscreants who acted alone and deserved the maximum penalty for what they had done.

I think that is the kind of response we were looking for from the muslim community in response to the 9-11 attacks, and that is the kind of response that we have seen very little of.

So, like you, I am wondering why the response of "moderate" Muslims has not been stronger. I am not saying it doesn't exist, only that, IMO, it is weak.

Here's an article that explains this better than I can. (http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/tobin.html)

Elissa, part-time preschool teacher and all-the-time mom to Ariel (6-20-88) Sammy, (6-22-95) and Benjy (8-14-98)

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Um, the respect for Bin Laden in the Muslim world can probably (and most digestably for Americans) be alikened to the raids of John Brown in pre-Civil War American.
Brown was rabidly anti-slavery and held a "by any means necessary" attitude which led him and his followers to capture a munitions depot in Virginia, hoping to incite nearby slaves to revot and arm them. A bloody, bloody battle ensued in which many people were killed.
Now, a lot of anti-slavery proponents believed fiercly in the same cause...and even agreed wholeheartedly with his ideology, but did NOT agree with his methodology at all. Some, however, including Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau heralded brown as a hero and, perhaps more disturbingly, as a martyr along the lines of Christ, himself.
Just a thought....
It's like thinking the Black Panthers are on to something when they speak of social injustice suffered by African Americans, but disagreeing with their approach to getting that injustice alleviated.

edited to fix my faulty historical recollections....
Jennifer
<font color=purple> Every blade of grass has its angel that bends over it and whispers, "Grow, grow". -- The Talmud </font color=purple>

<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by JennyC on Fri Jan 04 02:13 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

This is an interesting analogy. I wasn't aware of the support for John Brown (although I do know that it was a song about him that supplied the tune for "battle Hymn of the Republic")

libby
<font color=green>mama to Hunter Robert 9/9/98</font color=green>
<font color=blue>and to Andrew Paul 2/13/01</font color=blue>

I see your point, but maybe my cultural bias is getting in my way. See, slavery was bad, evil, and needed to end. We (Western civilization) are not.

I guess I don't make a very good moral relativist. ;-)

Elissa, part-time preschool teacher and all-the-time mom to Ariel (6-20-88) Sammy, (6-22-95) and Benjy (8-14-98)

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No, I agree that slavery was bad, immoral, evil...LOL...it's just the method that I disagree with.
My husband came up with a modern example..people who are pro-life may understand the logic and the emotion behind people who attack dr's. who perform abortions or send hate mail, etc, but that doesn't mean that they either agree with the person committing the act or with the act itself.
And I think the Muslims we are talking about probably don't think Western society needs to end. But from what I understand, they do feel that the West - the U.S. in particular - is too much in their business. And then there's the whole Israel/Palestine thing...which is too tight a not for me to untangle....


Jennifer
<font color=purple> Every blade of grass has its angel that bends over it and whispers, "Grow, grow". -- The Talmud </font color=purple>

The support for Brown was huge and came from very prominent leaders in the anti-slavery community.
The widespread and vocal support for Brown led to a further rift between the slave and non-slave holding parts of the U.S. and it's been argued - very effectively, I think - that had it not been for Brown, it is possible that a political, rather than a war, solution may have been found for the dissolution of slavery.
There were forces at work, rarely discussed by modern history textbooks, working very avidly to find a peaceful end to the slavery problem. Brown's raid effectively shut down all constructive communication between the sides.
Oh well....I'm of my OT bender for now....


Jennifer
<font color=purple> Every blade of grass has its angel that bends over it and whispers, "Grow, grow". -- The Talmud </font color=purple>

thank you, for a while there, I felt like I am the only person even noticing this. You said what I am trying to say, but only much more succintly.



Judy
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I would also like to point out that plenty of people "martyr" themselves for religious causes everyday - Muslim and non-Muslim.
And, as said above, historically, Christians (sorry I'm woefully ingnorant of Jewish history...) have committed extreme acts of violence in the name of God...The Crusades? The Witch Trials - both European and American? The Spanish Inquisition?
Granted, those things happened 100's of years ago, but they are still relevant because they were events crucial to the development of Christianity as a political, social, as well as a spiritual force.


Jennifer
<font color=purple> Every blade of grass has its angel that bends over it and whispers, "Grow, grow". -- The Talmud </font color=purple>

Oprah had a show *just* on this issue. She also had one on Islam 101. I know here for about three months there was a bit about Muslims as good and caring people every night on the evening news.

As for the dying part, didn't Christ die to prove His faith?

Elizabeth McKeeman
Momma to Annabelle 8/2/00

Thanks all for posting back... I think I will take up some of your suggestions and contact the UC Berkeley Islamic studies group (I'm sure they must have a dept like that) and get their take on this.

Couple of things though...yes, Christians did horrible things in the name of God not all that long ago, and some still do, but the general consensus is that it was wrong and misguided. I mean the Crusades and Inquistion, etc. Yet today, we are in the 21st century, with the benefit of hindsight, and I don't hear moderate Muslims, heck, any Muslims really making a big push to say, we are not for this,we do not believe in killing in Allah's name, etc. And by a big push, I mean a 1000 person march, a 10000 person march or rally, not a speaker here and there, not just the Oprah show, though that is a start.

Secondly, I understand the media is biased. But I also don't think its the media or everyone else in this country that should bear the entire brunt of thinking in a big minded fashion and saying hey, of course not all Muslims believe this. (though I am very much against these narrow minded people who lump everyone together and do stupid things to them). I'm just saying, why is it that I don't see a march in Washington DC or NY or LA, a big show of force on the part of Muslims (and whoever else may want to join in) to say, hey we are not like this, its not so bad here in America (for better or worse, not everything is great, but its ok and that's why we CHOOSE to live here, amongst those whom our brothers back in the MIdeast and SE Asia call the devil). I recall not to long ago there was a million man march or whatever of black men. I think there were some Muslims amongst them. And this attack seems just as big of an issue as what those Million Men were marching for.

I'm sort of thinking what the impact would be to the Muslim brothers and sisters in these other countries who think America is so bad. The impact of seeing their own Muslims marching would be more I think than hearing people say "not all Muslims are like this" etc. And the effect on the American public, yes, even the thickheaded ones who lump all Muslims together, would be beneficial.


Personally, I do think maybe more than less of these Muslims around the world feel that America has gotten its comeuppance: we put our fingers in too many pies, we're arrogant, we support Israel, we don't listen, heck, most people didn't even know where the heck Afghanistan was or how to spell that name before this happened. So though they may not agree with the means, maybe the message is not all that far off, and so in a sense, this bin Laden is a hero, with the guts to stand up to big ole America and all its military and monetary might. Thanks Jenny for the allegory. I think you are onto something there.

Lastly, gotta run, but Christ did die for his faith and to save us, but he didn't say go around and kill all the gentiles and Jews and God would let him into Heaven. But I see how easily religion and faith can be twisted. I think Mohammed,Christ, Allah, God...all are very sad now that we are fighting and using their name to justify it.

Ooops, gotta go, but thanks so mcuh for responses.
Judy

Judy
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>> I'm just saying, why is it that I don't see a march in Washington DC or NY or LA, a big show of force on the part of Muslims (and whoever else may want to join in) to say, hey we are not like this, its not so bad here in America (for better or worse, not everything is great, but its ok and that's why we CHOOSE to live here, amongst those whom our brothers back in the MIdeast and SE Asia call the devil). <<

WEll, gee, maybe becuase they're afraid? Maybe because a whole hell of a lot of people wouldn't even bother listening to the message, they'd just hear "group of Muslims" and come start up some violence? Maybe because a lot of Muslim feel, not altogether incorrectly, that the intolerance in this country at this particular time isn't amenable to Muslim marches of whatever, but rather that such an event sould be a perfect target for ignorant people to cause trouble.

I know that if I were a Muslim, you can bet your bottom dollar I would not be out there educating people about "nice Muslims". I"d be sitting at home watching TV and keeping a low profile.

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well, I can see that, but then are they not just perpetuating and allowing the stereotypes to continue? I would say there is more power in numbers and the folks that dare to speak out on Oprah or NPR or wherever (without making qualifications, just plain saying what the terrorists did was wrong and not get into all the injustice the Western nations have wreaked on Muslims)... should be even more afraid.

I'm Chinese, and you'd better believe if some nutcases from China came and did this, I would not hesitate to try to get a group together, at the risk of having ignorant people throw bottles at us. Because if we don't speak up, then are we not just joining the enemy, complicity in our silence. How can I expect others, not of my faith, color, breed to understand when I don't speak up, whether as one, but even better as a group, so that others can understand not everyone of my same color, faith, breed think alike?

And wouldn't you think if there was a rally of some sort, there would be security? I don't buy it. Aren't these same Muslims basically living in fear right now, of ignorant people? They can continue living that way as long as their Muslim brothers and sisters have no problem speaking out in these other countries and continue to commit terrorist acts.

I think of myself, if I saw 4 or 5 Arab men, similar looking to the ones who commited the terrorist acts, boarding the same airplane, or bus, or getting in the same elevator, and there I am, with my family, oh, hell yeah, I'd think twice before getting on. So I to have to live in fear too. Its not just them.

Ok, I'm rambling. I see your point that it could be scary to be involved in a rally, but on the other hand, I think one needs to find the courage to stand up and say what one stands for. I for one, would not want to be associated with Chinese terrorists. I face enough ignorant racism.





Judy
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Well....hmmm....let's see.
I think Anise is right...about people being afraid..I'd be scared myself.
ANd I would like to ask if you have a Muslim community in your area...could you, instead of asking them to reach out to you, could you reach out to them?
Call or drop by their offices...or even by a Mosque. Maybe they do have programs in place and you just don't know about them.
And Mohamed made a point of NOT killing non-Muslims. He expected that the live peacefully under Muslim rule, but advocated everyone worshipping who they wanted in the way they wanted. For a very brief period, Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together peacefully - then, the misunderstandings began......

Jennifer
<font color=purple> Every blade of grass has its angel that bends over it and whispers, "Grow, grow". -- The Talmud </font color=purple>

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

And Mohamed made a point of NOT killing non-Muslims. He expected that they live peacefully under Muslim rule, but advocated everyone worshipping who they wanted in the way they wanted.

<hr></blockquote>

I suppose this depends on your point of view. Religious minorities who were monotheistic (Jews and Christians) were subject to the laws of Dhimmi under Islamic rule. Among other things, this meant that they were not killed, but they were restricted to living in certain areas, and only allowed to earn a living in a very few ways. Often, they were made to wear identifying clothing or hats to mark them as non-Muslims. They had to put up with indignities such as having stones thrown at them and not being able to defend themselves. So their status was of a protected, but inferior and barely tolerated minority. Religious minorities that were non-monotheistic had it even worse.

I told myself my previous post on this subject was going to be my last, but I do enjoy a good debate, so here I am again. ;-)

Elissa, part-time preschool teacher and all-the-time mom to Ariel (6-20-88) Sammy, (6-22-95) and Benjy (8-14-98)

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Thanks Elissa!
I'm always happy to be told I'm wrong...seriously...how else would we learn anything?
What I've said I got from both a PBS show on Islam and a lengthy discussion with a Muslim friend in college...neither infallible or ultimate sources of knowledge or truth...LOL.
What you've said is very interesting to me...I'll have to resarch some more...Thanks again!

Jennifer
<font color=purple> Every blade of grass has its angel that bends over it and whispers, "Grow, grow". -- The Talmud </font color=purple>

I just said it depends on your point of view. If you were a Muslim at the time when, historically, most conquering people killed those of other religions, then you would probably feel pretty generous allowing those of other religions to continue to live, even if they had limited rights. On the other hand, if you were one of the religious minorities living in that situation, you may not feel that they were so benevolent.

Here's an interesting review of the book "Dhimmi" by Bat Ye'Or that I cut and pasted from Amazon.com. I haven't read the book, but maybe it would be interesting as part of your research.

The history of Jews and Christians living under Islam is not widely known. When thinking of it at all, one looks to the glories of Islamic Spain or to the Ottoman Empire. The general historical reality is different from these however. Bat Ye'or provides an excellent overview of this history in the first part of her book and a wide variety of source documents in the second.

Here we learn of the religiously sanctioned forced conversions, daily humiliations, massacres, oppression, inequitable taxation, and the like, which eventually led to the near disappearance of the extensive Christian and Jewish communities which had flourished throughout the Near East and North Africa prior to the advent of Islam.

As "dhimmi" (people of the contract) Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians and others of the accepted religions had no rights of citizenship within a Muslim state. As "protected peoples" they had no right to self-defense. They were at best tolerated and at all times living without security - subject to the law but not protected by it.

For example, Jews and Christians are specifically accused in the Qur'an of having falsified God's word. In past Islamic societies therefore, Jews and Christians were considered to be willfully and knowingly adhering to a lie. As religiously convicted liars, they were given no standing in courts of law and could be convicted of crimes on the unsupported word of two Muslim males. The abuses of this system were extensive.

All-in-all, Bat Ye'or's two books ("The Dhimmi" and "The Decline of Near Eastern Christianity under Islam") do much to re-illuminate the forgotten history of Jews and Christians under Islam. They deserve a wide readership.

As an aside here to prove the non-partisanship of my review, it's worth pointing out that the historical behavior of Christian societies toward indigenous Jews and heretics was no better. Muslim societies took a cue for much of their discriminatory legislation from the intolerant religious laws of the conquered Christian Byzantines. True religions display peculiar proofs, don't they.

The hard-cover edition of "The Dhimmi" is currently out-of-print it seems. However Amazon.com carries the paper-back. Get it while it is available if you're interested at all in the history of "protected peoples" living under Islam.



Elissa, part-time preschool teacher and all-the-time mom to Ariel (6-20-88) Sammy, (6-22-95) and Benjy (8-14-98)

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LOL...you're right...I said I was wrong...
LOL
And after thinking about it, I remember the PBS show saying that after conquering a city, the non-Muslim inhabitants expected to be slaughtered...and were very surprised when they were not, encouraging many of them to convert to Islam.
I wonder if the practice you are describing was devised by Mohammed or by later Islam-based governments....
At any rate...I wasn't being flippant when I thanked you for your reply...I was being honest. I'm always happy to be shown another point of view and/or be told some new information.
That's the basis for any kind of intellectual/spiritual growth. There is no learning without challenges...
http://www.amitymama.com/images/icons/smile.gif

Jennifer
<font color=purple> Every blade of grass has its angel that bends over it and whispers, "Grow, grow". -- The Talmud </font color=purple>