lets have a discussion on this please.

WOW states:
D&C 89
12 Yes, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly.

13 and it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

1) how do you interpret that?

2) was there later revelation that says meat is ok to be used in other times?

3) the missionaries say red meat sparingly, but fish and chicken ok...what do you think and have you heard that?

Dh and I were discussing this the other night. if you read the scripture-it seems to say basically meat only in winter or famine

so should we all be vegetarians ;)

Okay, clearly not an active member here, but I once had a RS lesson in which the speaker talked about this and about how we will all be veggies in the afterlife.

I find it interesting that so many members are so strict about the "strong drink" portion (which - IMO - is not well defined), but completely bypass the meat section.

I actually - though inactive - really like most of the WOW and think it offers wonderful advice - especially the meat portion.

Okay, clearly not an active member here, but I once had a RS lesson in which the speaker talked about this and about how we will all be veggies in the afterlife.

I find it interesting that so many members are so strict about the "strong drink" portion (which - IMO - is not well defined), but completely bypass the meat section.

I actually - though inactive - really like most of the WOW and think it offers wonderful advice - especially the meat portion.

thanks for your input!
that is what dh and I have decided. that we will follow it to a t...and have given up meat.

we are focusing on fruits, veggies, and whole grains/foods.

Yes, that's exactly what is says and means. I recall posting that here once, and you very much disagreeing w/me. ;)

Maybe *your* missionaries made that comment..... and I've heard it a hundred times in RS, Sunday School, from the pulpit etc. by the most devout letter-of-law members, but it does NOT ever say anywhere (doctrinally) "eat red meat sparingly." Pet peeve of mine. Mormons don't want to give up meat. I can't eat at ward functions b/c all they serve is meat! We justify it to no end. "Eating less meat" to most ppl means "having 1 veg. meal per week." LOL

Can't say I consider myself very "mormon" any more, but I was still devoutly so when I became a vegetarian. And yes, v 13 very clearly states that the higher law is to not eat it all except in those extreme circumstances.

Coke/caffeine is a much grayer area.... yet you will find mormons forbidding Coke in their homes infinitely more than ones forbidding meat! I guess that's what Sunflowermama was saying too. :)

well-there is supposed to be a scripture later on that says man is not to be deprived of meat. (this is from doctrine class) and I can't seem to find it.

anyone know? LOL

I think I know which scripture you are talking about... in the Bible I believe, but don't have the reference either. I recall it saying meat should not be forbidden? Meaning, no one should say "you can't eat meat." It doesn't change the meaning of the WofW reference though IMO. And it doesn't say it's wrong not to eat meat, just wrong to tell others they can't, from what I recall.

At core issue w/the WofW reference is the word "sparingly." LDS ppl have interesting (eh em) views on what that word means.

Here's my answer from The Other Board

I read it as saying that meat should not only be used in times of famine or winter, but that you shouldn't eat all of it all the time.

I think it says we can't do Atkins :D

Another way to say what I feel is "the middle path is the path ro rightousness". I don't think Heavenly Father is happy when we take more than we need from this gift we get to live on. If we were to take the life of an animal and say, just take the fur and trhow away the rest, then Heavely Father would be pissed. If we were to use as much as we could from the life we took, then maybe he wouldn't be mad.

I think I know which scripture you are talking about... in the Bible I believe, but don't have the reference either. I recall it saying meat should not be forbidden? Meaning, no one should say "you can't eat meat." It doesn't change the meaning of the WofW reference though IMO. And it doesn't say it's wrong not to eat meat, just wrong to tell others they can't, from what I recall.

At core issue w/the WofW reference is the word "sparingly." LDS ppl have interesting (eh em) views on what that word means.

see, I am not sure which scripture it is. I am discussing this on an all LDS board, and the ONE person that responded said they had just had that lesson, and talked about the scripture, but said it was in the BOM and sometime after DC 89

*sigh*

ok--now I am hearing it is:

"And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

“For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.” (D&C 49:18–19)


so it seems to me that those scriptures are in opposite of each other.

dh and I are really studying this right now and making eating choices...so I appreciate all input. (current LDS or not ;) ;) )

ok:

DC 49 18-19 was through revelation in March of 1831

The WOW came about in Feb 1833

doesn't that negate the earlier revelation?

and since it is beasts of earth and fowls of air, does that mean that fish alone (technically if you follow what the WOW says EXACTLY) is good to go all year round??

(thanks for all the input thus far)

The scripture about NOT avoiding meat can be found in D&C 49:18-19.

Meat is to be eaten sparingly but that doesn't mean not at all. There are necessary uses for meat in our body. As with all of the commandments, in order to interpret it or live it the way God wants us to, we each have to rely on our own perception, understanding and guidance of the Spirit to know if we're doing things correctly.

A few quotes from President Boyd K. Packer in a talk given in General Conference, 1996, called the Word of Wisdom: The principle and the Promise: The Word of Wisdom was “given for a principle with promise” (D&C 89:3). That word principle in the revelation is a very important one. A principle is an enduring truth, a law, a rule you can adopt to guide you in making decisions. Generally principles are not spelled out in detail. That leaves you free to find your way with an enduring truth, a principle, as your anchor.

The Word of Wisdom is “adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints” (D&C 89:3). It is buttressed by other scriptures. They teach that the good things of the earth “are made for the benefit and the use of man, … Yea,” the Lord said, “for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell, to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul, … to be used, with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion” (D&C 59:18–20).

Young people, learn to use moderation and common sense in matters of health and nutrition, and particularly in medication. Avoid being extreme or fanatical or becoming a faddist.

Surely the Word of Wisdom was given so that you may keep the delicate, sensitive, spiritual part of your nature on proper alert. Learn to “listen” to your feelings. You will be guided and warned and taught and blessed.

I think there are people eating too much meat, and some not eating enough. I think rather than judge how right or wrong others are, we should each do our best. Obviously if you're not healthy or you're eating too much of something or other, you're body will tell you.

I think it's VERY interesting that President Hinckley has said in several talks that the WOW is to teach us to eat for nutrition. Not to overeat, not for emotions, not for desire, etc., but for nutrition. If someone wants those quotes I can find them. I personally need to work more not on WHAT I'm eating, but WHY in order to fully live this.

As with all of the commandments, in order to interpret it or live it the way God wants us to, we each have to rely on our own perception, understanding and guidance of the Spirit to know if we're doing things correctly.

A few quotes from President Boyd K. Packer in a talk given in General Conference, 1996, called the Word of Wisdom: The principle and the Promise: The Word of Wisdom was “given for a principle with promise” (D&C 89:3). That word principle in the revelation is a very important one. A principle is an enduring truth, a law, a rule you can adopt to guide you in making decisions. Generally principles are not spelled out in detail. That leaves you free to find your way with an enduring truth, a principle, as your anchor.



Tara-with the WOW being a principal, how does that leave it open to interpretation or self revelation through prayer?

A principal is a principal. it is not a guideline. it is straight forward.

and this is not judgemental or confrontational because I am truly trying to figure this one out.

the earlier scripture in DC 49 said to not deny yourselves meat. then came the revelation of the WOW that became a principal of the gospel. if that directly contradicts earlier revelation than it is to be so..and I don't feel we can interpet that for our own needs/wants.

does that make sense?? I think I might meet with my bishop on this one to get his input because it doesn't make sense to me.

again-thanks to everyone helping me get through this one.

ok--talking with dh.

in DC 49 18, it says that we cannot forbid others from eating meat...
DC 49 19 says that meat is there for our consumption.

DC 89--which is the word of wisdom, clarifies that and says that meat is to be used in times of famine and cold.
that it should be used sparingly (vs 12) but he goes on to say in vs 13 they should only be used in times of winter, cold, famine.

So, it sounds to me as if it is saying, it's okay but not mandatory to eat meat, but if you do so, do so sparingly.

So, here's the question: define sparingly. . .

I know people who would define sparingly as only once per day and I know people who would definte sparingly as a few times/year.

I read the WOW and interpret sparingly as when it is truly physically necessary for health and survival, which, would probably constitute very rare times in one's life. But, I think sparingly is very open for personal intepretation/revelation - NOT what we want it to be, but what we believe in our hearts it is meant to be.

Did that make any sense whatsoever?

And, I eat too much meat.

I read the WOW and interpret sparingly as when it is truly physically necessary for health and survival, which, would probably constitute very rare times in one's life. But, I think sparingly is very open for personal intepretation/revelation - NOT what we want it to be, but what we believe in our hearts it is meant to be.
I think you put that very well.

Jessica -That's what I meant about a principle being open to interpretation.

It's true that all commandments and their principles are "set in stone" so to speak. However, how we comply with them is left up to personal interpretation, no? And the only way we can fully decide is through our relationship with the Spirit and our feelings.

Just like we're commanded to keep the Sabbath day holy - to some that would mean not even cooking a meal, or watching tv. To others it might mean a lovely family dinner and an uplifiting movie.

The actual commandment is still the same, but each person must interpret how to live that commandment. Does that make sense? I like Rebecca's explanation - well thought out.

I am not trying to justify my meat eating (I don't eat a lot but probably still more than I should) but I did want to point out (IIRC) that during the time period the WOW was given, the saints were enjoying prosperity and were even being chastised from time to time for their lightheartedness and misunderstanding of the seriousness of what was to come (persecution, fleeing, trek west, etc)

Their bodies needed to become healthier in order to prepare for what was to come, and the fact that once they were traveling, they didn't have much more than meat to accompany them - during those winter months, those times of famine, etc.

It's amazing to me that the Lord would try to prepare them and prepare their bodies before sending them on their way, even if the saints weren't aware of what was going to happen.

Am I making any sense?

well-there is supposed to be a scripture later on that says man is not to be deprived of meat. (this is from doctrine class) and I can't seem to find it.

anyone know? LOL

ETA: I wrote this before I read all the responses, but I still think it applies. :)


Waaahhh, I lost my beautiful leather bound scriptures where I have the verse you are referring to marked. It's in the D&C somewhere...Ok, I just looked it up on lds.org:

D&C49:18

18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.


So it says we should not forbid meat...BUT, as always, the context is very important. We must read on...



20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.

21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.



So, it says that we must not shed blood or waste flesh with no need, which takes us back to the WOW, which clearly describes the times of need: famine and winter.

ETA: I wrote this before I read all the responses, but I still think it applies. :)


Waaahhh, I lost my beautiful leather bound scriptures where I have the verse you are referring to marked. It's in the D&C somewhere...Ok, I just looked it up on lds.org:

D&C49:18

18 And whoso forbiddeth to babstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for craiment, and that he might have in abundance.


So it says we should not forbid meat...BUT, as always, the context is very important. We must read on...



20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.

21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.



So, it says that we must not shed blood or waste flesh with no need, which takes us back to the WOW, which clearly describes the times of need: famine and winter.

and if you read what was going on at the time...that scripture above came in a time when they were not eating healthy and were out of sorts.

2 years later is when we got the WOW...and had it say to partake of meat in times of famine, cold, winter.

thanks for all the input!!!

IMO it is pretty clear. It in times of "Cold and Famine". But (this is according to ME not to scripture or gosple) there are times in our life that could constitute 'famine'. We may have plentiful foods and I know many vegetarians that do just great so don't argue that point ;) But pregnacy and breastfeeding bring an increased need for protien. Diabetics have an increased need for protien and less high GI foods. Recovering from illness or surgery?

I know there are veg scources of protien that can meet these needs (but not of B-12). But I also know that I was completely veg (Lacto) before I got pregnant with this baby and had been for about 4 months. Suddenly I NEED red meat. Does this make any sense? This isn't justifying eating lots of meat. I completely agree with most of the previous posters about most Saints over looking the "Eat Meat Sparingly" part and focusing on "How dare you have a glass of wine" part.