Ds (just turned 4) and I are dealing with some issues that I need help with.

1)Anger/backtalking is a huge problem. He seems so mad a lot of the time, and I get a lot of "No you WON'T take xxxx away from me." etc. I think I am a consistent and fair parent. I try to choose my battles. I am not a yeller, although I exercise a stern voice a little too often. Dh is the most mild-mannered, gentle man I know. I can't figure out how to teach ds to manage his anger and the negative behavior that comes with it. We do use time out. We're consistent about it, but it is a battle to get him to stay there. He gets enraged immediately when we correct his behavior, and it seems to escalate. We stress using words. We tell him often that he may talk to us about ANYTHING as long has he uses a respectful tone of voice. I don't know what else to do. I'm panicking a little b/c I wonder what he'll be like at 13, if this is such a problem at 4!

2) Ds has been extremely controlling lately. Not just of his behavior, but of everyone's. I can't take a step without hearing "Where are you going? Why? When are you coming back?" That's in addition to "I dropped my napkin, get it please." "I need you to get me a kleenex." etc. Unless it's something he really can't manage, I tell him he can do those things for himself. I often tell him that he is in charge of his behavior, but noone elses. He directs everyone else's play. He'll tell me what to build with blocks, or which train I can have etc. I tell him that everyone plays in their own way. This is an area that I feel like I'm doing an okay job of parenting, but I'd still like to know if this is a personality issue or a phase.

3) Possesiveness is taking over our lives. Every time dd (20 months) touches something, even if ds is not anywhere near it, he launches into a tirade. "That's MINE. You can't have it. I was going to play with it!" Poor dd! 90% of the toys are ds's b/c he's just been around longer. Typically, I enforce sharing. I know there's an argument against it, but I feel like so much of being a family is about communal property and sharing. I point out to ds that much of what he uses every day belongs to someone else, and that as a family, we SHARE. Am I wrong here? Alternatives, anyone? Any ideas for making dd feel better, too? She's starting to notice ds's attitude and feel rejected.

4) Ds's negativity is making me so sad. Everything is "too hard" for him to bother with. He won't taste new food b/c he's sure he won't like it. He's always bored. He won't roller skate b/c he keeps falling down. This is a particularly hard issue for me b/c I was raised by EXTREMELY negative parents (who were also raised by negative parents.) and have fought being negative most of my life. I've tried so hard to teach my kids to be positive. I know some of it is hereditary. I was an adult b/f I recognized the problem in myself and started working to correct it. I don't want ds to lose out on so much of life b/c he carries this gene.

5) He won't try anything new (sliding down a pole at the playground or playing an instrument etc.) b/c he's afraid of failing. If we try to help him or teach him, he shuts down. "I don't WANT to xxxxx. NO!" He does this even for things I know he wants to try. He'll watch the other kids or dh with interest. He'll take the initial steps, then back off without trying. Dh and I love to learn/do new things. We have always reinforced the idea that it's okay to mess up, that you just keep trying and practicing. I don't know how to help him.

I truly delight in my child. We spend a lot of time snuggling, reading, talking. I've worked every day to keep lines of communication open. I was raised in a home where the expression of feelings was not allowed. I am hyper conscious of not creating that disaster in my home. I can't get him to talk to me about these issues. I don't know if it's just that he's too young to understand them himself. I know this post is really long. If you got this far, thanks for wading through it. I could really use your advice!

Thanks,
Rebecca

no ideas for you.. but bumping back to page 1 in hopes someone will have some advice.


:big hug:

I'm so sorry, Mama! :( That must be so hard to deal with!!

I can't say as though I think that is typical, just going from the four year olds that I have been around. I mean, you expect a little bit of that from time to time, but it sounds like it's constant enough to be upsetting the family dynamic.


I hope somebody has some useful advice for you! We tend to be a little on the strict side when it comes to the way family members interact with one another. The best remedy in our house for a person in a sour mood is some time lounging in bed with a few books to look at... Everyone has a bad day, but if you can't talk nicely or share ~ if you have a bad attitude, then maybe some time mellowing out would do a body good.

You did not mention how much he is doing these behaviors. I think all of them in moderation is typical. If his behavior is truely upsetting the family on a very regular basis I would be concerned. But more likely it is just normal 4 year old behavior. 4 year olds are tough.
My ds does all of those behaviors but not every day. He has good and bad days. He also goes through phases. Right now backtalking is his thing :rolleyes:

Hey mama, I just wanted to tell you that he sounds EXACTLY like my 4 year old. Exactly. Everything you mentioned, DS does. Daily, hourly.
NO advice, it sounds like you're doing great. 4 year old boys are hard. :big hug:

Your ds seems to have my ds's temperment.

My ds is almost 8, and that particular temperment has NOT gone away. He is still very much controlling, possessive, and at times just angry about life not going in the direction he wanted it to go. I can say, that in many ways, consistency has been the key to having a more pleasurable day, but the temperment is still something we struggle with daily. I used to wonder if I was just a bad parent, but my other 2 kids (who are girls, so that may play a part) are nothing like my ds (who is also the oldest).

Ds CAN be kind, and generous, but I have noticed, that he is usually only that way, as long as he is getting an equal share. He is not one who will give away the last cookie to his sister. He HAS though, learned how to do things so that everyone is happy and not just him, and in the cookie scenerio, he would have split it 3 ways so everyone could have an equal share. But if anything is not equal, then boy does he get miserable. If he thinks he's getting the shaft, he doesn't just accept it and walk away (I would), we just get an angry boy who is determined to make things equal, whether that mean arguing his case, or throwing a tantrum because he can't change things.

He is also the kind of kid who hates personal failure. I would say that he is his own worst critic. He especially hates to fail in front of people. So, he is usually determined to know something really well before he does it in front of people. He gets so upset when he can't master something quickly, and because of his personal embaressment of us seeing him struggle, he doesn't want us to step in and offer advice or solutions, and he pushes us away in anger. When he was younger he would throw video game controllers when the game wasn't going well. If he couldn't tie his shoes he would storm off to his room. If wwe tried to offer assistance, it got him more frustrated and upset. He didn't want us to teach him, he didn't want our help, but he so badly wanted to be able to do whatever it was he was trying to do. He would slam doors when he was mad, he would scream "humph!" when he would get something taken away or sent to his room, for his behavior. We consistantly dealt with the behaviors, telling him it's okay to be angry, but we don't hurt people physically or verbally when we are angry. We've removed him from his environment and made him spend quiet time in his room when he can't deal well with his emotions (for him this works well, and shortly after, he is able to come out and talk). We've found very unique visual/hands-on ways for ds to learn things, where we can leave him to his own devices and he can practice until he feels comfortable.

I have always commented to my mom, that ds will make a great dictator when he grows up. He is constantly trying to control games, or whatever project he and his sisters do. He wants to be dishing out the orders, and leading the way in everything. I do find, that ds is good at taking a backseat with new friends, and allowing them to be in charge. He seems to only exert his controlling attitude around those he is familiar with, like his sisters, and friends he has been friends with a while.

I know it may sound like my ds is so much work and trouble, but he does have a good heart. He just seems to have so much trouble dealing with his own temperment. He is very logical, and if I am able to show him the logic behind things, he is able to support it (not always happily, but he will understand). If I show him, how if I let him have the last cookie, it won't be fair to his sisters who also want a cookie, and help him to see that if the situation was reversed, he wouldn't like it if his sister ate the last cookie, it helps. We've been encouraging ds for years, to help us solve problems that arise, always pointing out, that when 2 people want different things (like him and his sisters), that we have to find a way that makes everyone happy, because it's not fair if only one person is happy. Ds has responded extremely well to this approach and it has helped tremendously. It hasn't changed the fact that he sometimes views himself as far more important than others, but it does help him to stop and look at things differently.

I really think that ds's temperment will serve him well in life though. Provided he use it wisely and with care. I think he will make a great manager, and I imagine he will work hard at doing things right. I imagine he will be a great entrepreneur since he seems to have such wonderful ideas, that he doesn't want others to squelch. He is a take charge kind of kid, who knows what he wants, and is determined to find a way to get it. Obviously as a parent, I get in his way right now, which is why I imagine he is constantly frustrated with me, but I think when he grows and matures, that he will be better able to deal with stumbling blocks that get in his way.

I think, that having communal toys is good. We also have many of those since our kids were spaced very closely (ages 5, 6 and 7). But we also started early, with them having special toys that were their own. Ones they could take personal claim to, and not have to share. If someone is playing with a toy that is his, we tell him he has to ask nicely for it back, no grabbing it away or yelling. We also encourage him to keep thiose things in his room. Communcal toys are communal. Everyone shares them, and he may not always be happy about it, but if someone else is playig with something, he has to wait until they are done, or offer up a good trade that the other peson will agree to. Either way, the end result should be 2 happy people, and not just one.

Sounds similar to my 4 year old ds with one exception - my ds will NOT ask nicely for anything. If he wants water instead of "please get me some water/maybe I please have water or just "I want water" he says stuff like. "YOU NEVER give me any water". "you forgot to give me water". "You didn't get me water". or the statment (with a glare and mad tone) "I don't have any water". . Believe me dh and I do NOT talk to each other that way and neither do my girls. Drives me up the wall - I do make him ask nicely but even when asking him to ask nicely when he would like something and talking about how it's not at all true that I "never" get him anything - he will sometimes say "please" or ask but it's after glaring, pouting, and hmmpphing.

He's posseive too with the girls - it's helped him having his own room and I've just told him everythign he doesn't want to share he has to keep in there and communal "sharing" toys are for everyone and he can't take them in his room.

I just don't know what to do - whenever it's just me and the 4 girls - life is SO much easier!

I think it is very typical for a *spirited* 4 yo. I think a lot of people don't realize how har it is to have a spirited kid and that they really are different/more synsative and reactive than regular kids. I happen to have *2* spirited children. Some days are really stressfull but these same spirited traights will serve them well in adult life. It seems they have a spirited mom.

CHeck out the book Raising Your Spirited Child http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060923288/qid=1110857682/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-3414031-8203210?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

It has proved to be a life saver for me. I really thogught aI was just a crappy mom until I read it. Now I understand both of them and it is so much easier to react calmly ( I am a yeller :() and help them to cope with what is going with them.

the Five Love Launguages of Children is very helpful too for *all* children
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1881273652/qid=1110857938/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-3414031-8203210

speaking of spirited kids mine are calling. lol

(My own a wee bit!)

I personally find that getting down to his level, on my knees to talk face to face helps a lot. I get down and talk with a calm voice and he listens far better than if I am up on my feet towering over him.

I also find that not getting too tough with him helps. I try to model a respectful tone to him and when he talks 'bossy' I smile and say. "Wouldn't it be fun if you WERE the boss here?!" or " Wouldn't it be neat if we did ______ (whatever he is insisting on) today?"

It isn't easy to deal with an argumentative four year old. It is a big, big challenge.

I suspect having a younger sib. is a factor which your four year old is himself challenged by!!!

If you work on having your child feel competent in many simple things....he may feel more game to take on new activities. Hesitant kids tend to feel less daring because they doubt themselves.

Food?! I just read somewhere yesterday that a child needs to be exposed to a food 15 times before trying it!!!?????!!!!

:big hug:

Sounds similar in many ways to my ds. I see a BIG improvement as we get close to five.

Recently I have broken down and made a chore/behavior chart with daily stars and big rewards at the end of the week. It really has made a surprising difference in behavior and effort. It's very lengthy, but it covers things he would do anyway just to give him credit and put him in the habit. It includes things like being nice to pets, eating dinner, and other appropriate behaviors.

He has really responded to the daily routine of it all, it puts the onus of responsibility on him, and he is very proud at night when we put the stars up.

Good luck!

sounds a lot like dd. she is very demanding 'get me....', 'I want...., etc. we are working on the 'please may I .....', ' please can I.....', etc.

I also recomend the 'spitited child' book. it helped me look at things in a more positive way and deal with it calmly.

you are not alone.

its not just boys, I have a 4yo dd that has a very fluent tounge when it comes to back talk...subbing so I can keep up with this threaD;)

yup, annoyingly normal behaivior... ((hugs)) I need to re read the spirited child... Daniel will be 5 in may.. is 5any easier? LOL!.. I havefound that Daniel is more positive when he gets a lot of cuddle time or some UNDIVIDED energetic with mom play. Maybe you need to find out what his NEED is... maybe he has something that can "fill his cup" a bit more so that he can be a little more positive... it's a struggle, but worth every bit of it...

Thank you, mamas. I was feeling a little down yesterday about noone having some help for me, and then woke up this morning to a whole thread full of great responses. I appreciate them!

I will do some reading and try the things you all suggested. I think he IS a spirited child. I didn't really think of it that way before. I'm glad to know there is a whole book about children like my boy. I'm sure it will help.

Thank you!
Rebecca

I have the same issues with my oldest ds. He has a very , very difficult time controlling his temper. If he is getting the short end of the stick, we all know. If he loses a paper, socks, etc then someone 'stole' it. We also try sending him to his room so he can spend time calming down. I try to have a positive outlook and it's very distrurbing to see this behavior in him. It kind of runs over our whole house. (He's 9, btw). My second ds will say: I never get x. I gently remind him that he does, he just needs to ask.

Oh, and a funny from my oldest. Since he has such a negative attitude about many things...here is his latest...

It's not fair that my brothers get to get my old clothes to wear. They always have enough clothes to wear. No one passes down clothes to me, you ahve to buy them!!! It's not fair!

Oh, and a funny from my oldest. Since he has such a negative attitude about many things...here is his latest...

It's not fair that my brothers get to get my old clothes to wear. They always have enough clothes to wear. No one passes down clothes to me, you ahve to buy them!!! It's not fair!

;pop: OMG ~ LOL :hahaha:

I always wounder what will come out of dd's mouth some days - its hard not to laugh when they are being so serious about somethings.

If he loses a paper, socks, etc then someone 'stole' it.

Ah yes, we hear that here too....sigh

another mom of a spirited 4 y.o. here too...

I just finished reading "Living With Your Active Alert Child" ... I really recommend it. Here's a link to a pretty thorough outline, to give you an idea of what it's about.
http://www.network54.com/Realm/Spirited_Kids/Budd.htm

It's similar to "Raising your Spirited Child", but it talks a lot about this one specific temperment that she's coined "active alert" ... it really sums up our DS to a "T". Although it didn't have a *ton* of new recommendations (to be fair, I've done a *lot* of reading on this topic, so there's not a whole lot new out there anyway *lol*), I found it very validating. It had some interesting information on family types, and how each member plays a role, and how "active alert" children fit into those families.

I just wanted to tell you I could have written your post. Dd is the same way right now. You are not alone by any means!!! :big hug:

My son is 4 1/2 and I could have written your post almost word for word except he rarely likes to snuggle and he constantly inturrupts (off subject) when I read to him. :rolleyes: I really am believe that 4 is a *tough* year! Almost every day is a huge challange anymore! I just hope 5 gets better!

You've described my son to a "T," too! We are 2 days into 4 & he's been doing all this for the past 3 weeks. SO glad there are other mamas going through the same. :hug: Sorry I don't have any useful information right now. We're just doing a lot of eye to eye talking & trying to spend more time w/ him. He has a younger sib, too, so maybe the fact she's recently become mobile has something to do w/ it.

bluehalo~ the book & link sound very much like Cristian. I'll have to check it out. Thanks for the info.

Tina