The Case Against Time Out (http://www.naturalchild.com/guest/peter_haiman.html)

A great article!

Any thoughts from those of you who have read this? I'd love to hear from you!

nt

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It's a good article, Amy. I like the explanation of why children misbehave. My cousin was relating to me that she just changed her child's pre-school/daycare 2 mos ago and he has been acting out, being generally disagreeable and hitting other children. The teachers have been putting him in time-out a lot (making him more frustrated) in an effort to get compliance from him. I expect this is exacerbating the problem as they are not addressing his feelings or needs at all. Ticks me off. He's only 4.

Anyway, I think most people use time-outs wrong. I won't use them personally. What I may do is say mom needs time to calm down or lets take time to calm down before we talk more, resume our activity, etc. I think everyone needs time to regain self-control because lets face it, sometimes we lose it and our kids lose it and nothing productive is happening at that point. I think used in this way it can be a good tool for parents who find it very challenging to parent the way this article recommends.

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I haven't read the article yet, but I'm against time-out. Here's what I think about time-out: it relies on threats and fear; it fails to address underlying causes of behaviors; it ignores that children learn in different ways; it requires coersion; it is disrepectful of children's autonomy; it sends the message "we don't know what the problem is and we don't have time for this"; it is adult-oriented relief; it inhibits risk-taking in young children; it fosters a sense of personal incompetence--in adults and children; it sends the message "we are against you"; it isolates and embarrasses the child; it undermines the child's feelings of acceptance and belonging; it increases anxiety and stress for both the child and adult; it is arbitrary and punitive; it results in a power-struggle pitting adults against the child; and it creates distrust. Oh, and did I mention that young children *neurologically* cannot remember rules when their attention is somewhere else?

Vanessa
Mama to Holly, Nina, and Amber (11/09/99)

Do I feel that time-outs are appropriate for all ages and all circumstances? Not by a long shot. However, this article seemed to imply that every misbehavior by a child is the direct "fault" of the parent. They must have failed in some respect or their child wouldn't act this way. IMO, this person has never raised an adolescent or a child with any type of issues out of the realm of "normalcy". I think it would be much more constructive to offer alternatives than it is to play the blame game.

It's easy to sit back and criticize something, much harder to offer viable alternatives.

JMO


Lisa

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I didn't get any feeling of blame or fault or cause and effect from the article, other than the acknowledgement that if a child's needs are not being met - undesireable behavior is a result. The author is also stating that an enforced time-out can exacerbate the problem.

In short, if a parent "misdiagnoses" or ignores a child's signal of a need (crying, whining, hitting, throwing etc), the result is a child that continues increased attempts at gaining the parent's attention by other means.

I don't find that blaming, I find it enlightening! Meaning that if I am aware when my daughter is hungry, tired, bored, scared, thirsty...then her behavior can be redirected into taking care of those needs.

When the typical toddler things come up and tend to escalate, it's generally because I've not been paying attention. I don't feel as if I am to blame for this, but there are things I may have been able to do differently. Heck - I'm human, I make mistakes and am zoned out sometimes. Sometimes I'm just too dang tired and have needs myself!

When I am able to connect with her feelings and/or needs, I can generally figure out what she wants and take care of it. If I can't give her what she wants, I can still connect with her disappointment, anger, frustration or sadness...which nearly 100% of the time is enough and she moves on to her next activity.

Giving a toddler their feelings can be a HUGE tool that is extremely effective IME. "You are angry because mommy took the scissors away and you wanted to play with them", "you really want to eat candy right now and feel disappointed because it's time to eat a sandwich for lunch" or whatever the case may be.

I also do a lot of redirecting, distracting, singing and playing as a means of preventing meltdowns. Usually it works. http://www.amitymama.com/images/icons/smile.gif

Dunno if this is helpful for anyone, and I feel like I'm rambling now. LOL! Thanks for your input!

Lisa,

I think I'm hearing ya on this one LOL. While I agree with the majority--maybe even all--of the article and I find it very encouraging and motivating, it does make me feel incredibly guilty at times.

For example, just after snack a couple days ago, we were all playing in the play room with a friend's 3 kids. We were all playing well and talking, the kids were getting plenty of attention, my oldest was not hungry or tired or lonely or bored, but she took away a toy from another kiddo. I calmy told her that Katie was playing with the toy and that she needed to work out a way to share. Katie asked her to wait until she was done. My Catherine said "No, I want to play now." Katie said she was almost done and could have a turn in just a minute. Catherine again said "No. I want a turn." I offered her a different game, similar in nature, and started playing with it. She looked at me, looked at Katie, and ripped it out of her hands.

So...I'm not sure if there was an unmet need there, but I really don't think there was. I know I have some friends who will say I was doing something wrong or that I was just missing something. While that may be true, I really don't think it was. There are many times I am busy or tired and miss things. I myself was not tired, sick or anything at this time and was giving her my full attention. Anyway....

I did not make her take a time out in the traditional sense. I did ask her to leave the room with me, and we went somewhere else to talk about what happened. Mind you, she is whining and talking back like crazy now! Yes, I probably embarassed her by making her leave the room. But that was better than humiliating her in front of her friends, IMO.

So, I guess what I am saying is that I hear what you are saying, Lisa. This article can do both things IMO--it can be very motivating, but it can also make one feel really guilty. Most of the time, I believe we as parents should be working hard to meet our kids' needs. But as children get older, there will be times when some kids just defy you for no apparent reason. It gets harder as they get older.

I'm still not a fan of the traditional time-out, but I do give my older daughter "time-away" so to speak. I consider it a natural consequence. If I've talked to her, explained the rules to her, offered her something else, and more....and she still can't follow the family rule of sharing our toys, then she is not allowed to play wherever we are playing because she is not following that rule.

Also, to stick my neck out a bit further, I think that as kids get older they don't need to have their needs met *right away*. I say that because I have talked to some of my very child-centered friends about problems such as I mentioned above and they imply or outright say that the problem is that we have 3 kids or that they are too closely spaced. So, if I am nursing baby, I can't get to my 5 yo or 2 yo right away, but I usually can within minutes. I don't think that is being unreasonable, as I am not ignoring them--simply asking them to wait until Mommy is done. They learn to wait a little bit and they learn that others have needs as well. I'm not saying my 2 yo needs to learn that! But my 5 yo is certainly old enough and already says things like "oh mommy, I'm hungry but I know Isabel needs to nurse first." I guess that is what I also hope to teach my kids--that others have needs as well. She'll even be so kind as to tell me that it seems like I need a bath (she knows that is how I de-stress LOL). It's also my big hint from her that I need to be more patient LOL.


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bumping

I'm reading this thread with interest, because I've recently started experimenting a bit with time-outs with my 2-year-old son. I don't know if what I've tried is a traditional time out. Here's an example: playdate, our house, 1 other toddler and mama. Good kid-to-mama ratio, lots of attention. Sam (for no apparent reason) hits the other child. I take him aside, explain briefly about hitting being hurtful, etc. 2 minutes later, he does it again. I explain again that hitting hurts, and take him upstairs to his room to be by himself for a minute. Most of the time he actually doesn't mind. He sits down and reads books for a while, and then comes back downstairs. When I first take him into his room, I explain that he can come downstairs when he can play without hitting; if he hits again, he'll need to come back upstairs.

So...I'm not sure if this is the same sort of thing as a classic time-out. I only use do this when I can't figure out a reason why he's doing X, can't successfully redirect or distract him, and if the 'offense' is really serious in my mind (which hitting is). He doesn't cry about being in his room, so it doesn't feel like a punishment, more like Holly's comment about "time away."

Tara

I didn't get a chance to reply when you sent this Amy, but awesome article!!! :thumbsup:

I like parts of this article...LOL.
I think time-out - like all parts of parenting - has to be active on the part of the parent.
We rarely use time-outs - rarely. When we do, Eli has to sit on the bottom step for about a minute or so. I sit with him. We talk about what happened...why he's there....what we both could have done differently in the situation...what we can do next time to change things, etc. This is where we taught Eli to "blow out candles" - deep breathing - as a way to calm down, something he now does before things get out of hand.
I don't think you can just banish your child to a nether world and expect them to emerge better people for the time alone, like they were reflecting on themselves the whole time or something.
But I do think that the time after an infraction (or whatever) can be used as a teaching tool...and sometimes I find it best to remove ourselves to a place with little distraction - like the bottom step.
Maybe that's not what a time-out is....what do I know? ;)

Originally posted by JennyC
I like parts of this article...LOL.
Eli has to sit on the bottom step for about a minute or so. I sit with him. We talk about what happened...why he's there....what we both could have done differently in the situation...what we can do next time to change things, etc. This is where we taught Eli to "blow out candles" - deep breathing - as a way to calm down, something he now does before things get out of hand.


I agree! We do this too. I don't agree with putting child in a corner or wherever and forcing them to be quiet and away from everyone. I do believe in exiting situations that are getting volitale meaing going with the child. I call it time out maybe its not.

after reading it i feel really misunderstood as a parent who uses time out as a bridge to help settle outbursts so problems can be handled in a calm environment. i feel very stupid and inadequate. my issues? yes, i'm sure.

1st issue is the parental fault issue. all misbehavior is the parent's fault for not meeting the child's needs. wow! as if i didn't have enough guilt in my life :(.

2nd issue...i think the author makes assumptions about parents who use time out that aren't true.
here's one:
"When time-out is used, parents first firmly demand that their child stop misbehaving and be quiet."

that is simply NOT true. time out, for us, is more like:
"you are welcome to scream and be angry because it is erin's turn to pick a book first but please do that in your room with the door closed so the rest of us can enjoy..." yada yada. no one is demanding that he stops being angry, nor that he stops expressing his feelings. however, he is being forced to choose between screaming about it in his room or listening to me read her book (which is NOT his first choice) while he waits to hear his.

according to this article all this could have been avoided if i would have met his needs in the first place.

i feel like a failure after reading the article. i have always tried to deal with my children's issues calmly and with patience, kindness and understanding. but i have been assuming that as they get older they should be encouraged to express their frustrations in increasingly socially acceptable ways on a timetable that fits them. after reading this i am now seeing every one of their outbursts as the only way they have to say i'm not being a good enough mom.

:wah: i'm such a horrible mom. my poor kids. sheez...and i was stupid enough to think i was doing an okay job.

My son is 15 months and I haven't really had any behavior problems with him yet. I haven't gotten to the point of needing any kind of discipline. However, I've been planning ahead by observing friends with slightly older friends...One friend (I consider her to be an amazing mom.) uses time-outs, but in a way that is very different than the way the article describes.

My friend uses "time-out" as a time to for her daughter to learn to center herself so that they can address whatever caused the misbehavior. They've gotten to the point now (dd is 3) that she can ask her daughter if she needs a time-out and the little girl will say yes. The time-outs actually seem to make her feel better and more relaxed. She comes back ready to communicate with her mom in a way that she couldn't when she was upset.

I was assuming that this method of discipline was the definition of "time-out". I'm surprised to hear that time-out can be used in a way that is negative.

Doesn't this issue have a lot to do with how you explain time-out to your child? Maybe it doesn't have to be used as punishment. Can't it be used as a form of guidance, or a chance for the child and the parent to catch their breath and start fresh with resolving the crisis?

like your friend i feel like time outs help our kids. they sometimes need a chance to center and then tell us in an age appropriate manner what is bothering them.

this article made me feel like i am a failure for letting anything in their lives bother them even.

THE GUILT :wah:!

There were a few who posted over the last several months about this. I don't know if you read my response to Lisa above or not, but that may help.

I have seen parents use time out as a matter of course, for EVERYTHING, and I don't think it's effective in that case. I've also seen it used as a punishment, which is not how I parent.

When Ava is in a melt-down, I work really hard to figure out what's going on for her in that moment (hungry, tired, thirsty, scared, bored etc) and then try to meet that need (food, sleep, water or nursing, entertainment - whatever). I don't think most of us would knowingly allow our child to be hungry, then deliberately punish them for acting out. KWIM?

If she's still in meltdown mode, typically I'll pick her up and ask her what she wants (she's pretty verbal so this works most of the time). There are also times that my needs and hers are in conflict - I have to pee, she wants me to read a book. I take care of the emergent need - which may be either one on any given day, and then take care of the other. It's a balance like no other! ;)

Certainly there are times when she just needs some space to express herself, be angry, be frustrated, be loud - and all of that's fine. I allow her a space and her own time to do it. I don't label it as a "time-out" or anything, I don't judge her need to do it, but I don't isolate her either. I think it's really semantics in many cases.

YOU know your children better than anybody. If what you're doing works for your family, you're happy with the result and aren't looking for other methods...well, one article isn't going to change all of that...is it?

It's been an interesting thread! :)
~Amy
Giraffe mama to Ava

i thought one of the things that leads to meltdowns was overstimulation. i can't really see how anything other than a break from everything would help that, kwim? and my kids don't always know they need a break, just like they don't always know they need to eat until it's suggested. i mean, there are also times i have to tell my five year old "go pee" cuz she is doing the pee pee dance and having meltdowns on anyone who happens to have the misfortune of crossing her path...is it my fault she isn't getting that need met? we provided a bathroom...she knows where to go...but she will go on like this if we don't say "erin, go pee...you'll feel better...promise." cuz she is just WAY too involved in whatever to take the time to go pee. so, after she does goes she feels better and things are back to normal. is that wrong? i dunno? it seems silly to me to allow everyone to suffer (including her!) cuz i don't want to interfere with her needs. i also worry about her getting a uti from this habit.

so...with my oldest he needs time away. he gets WAY too keyed up and needs some quiet regrouping time. is it alone? maybe, maybe not. sometimes it is a cuddle on his bed with mom and a book. sometimes it is on the couch with dad and a book...and if it happens to occur when all the adults are otherwise occupied it may be alone....but he still NEEDS it just like the younger one needs to pee. i guess this article has me in tears cuz it seems to me i'm a bad mom for allowing my children to get to the point of having these needs...like a good mom would better be watching, organizing, planning, and predicting so that none of this ever occured.

sigh...and yes i did read your response to lisa...i'm just a freak and i am so totally paranoid about harming my kids in any way...so i'm NOT confident in how i parent cuz i think there's always room for improvement. so this article isn't bad...it just makes ~me~ feel like an even worse mom.

ugh, i am not making one bitty bit of sense here, am i?

I am on my way to read the article. I am open for tips.

With Cameron (6) he has gotten mouthy lately. I do feel that most of it has been learned from kids in his kindergarten class.

So if he gets ugly I ask him to go to him room (5min) if he says No or acts out I have been adding 5 min for every negative action until he does as I asked. I have NO clue if this is the right thing to do but I want to homeschool and I know that I will get frustrated with constant talking back and rude remarks.

Anyway off to read. :) Thanks for posting it (even if I don't agree)

Bumping up a really old thread.

:)

Well, there are lots of reasons why I didn't like this article. Now, I'm not a fan of time-outs for my kids, but I still didn't like the article.

I felt that it blamed all bad behavior on the parents not meeting the kids needs. Please, my kids sometimes just choose to be naughty for the heck of it! It is not my fault that they do it.

There comes an age when you need to learn to set your needs aside for others. My kids are very close together, they need to wait and do without because someone else's needs are more important at that moment. My kids will not starve or die of hunger if they are made to wait awhile and I WILL NOT excuse bad behavior for this reason. My kids can be tired, that does not give them license to misbehave. My kid may be upset that he didn't get his way, that is no reason to act in an ugly manner. Now realize that I'm talking about kids that are almost 4 and up, but the article was not specific about ages.

I realize that toddlers cannot be expected to have the control that an older child has, but they can BEGIN to understand that wants are different than needs. Also, they can begin to learn to wait for getting their needs met - agian, it is not an excuse for misbehaving.

The other think that I didn't like about the article was the whole across the board deciding that a certain form of punshment is bad. I'm so sick of this - Time-out is wrong, punishment is wrong, spanking is wrong, ignoring behavior is wrong, ..... I don't think you can say that in all cases and situations any one parenting technique is wrong. Every child is an individual, every situation is different, our parenting techniques will be unique to what is happening right now.

Do I use time-out? No, not really. They don't seem to change bad bahavior in my kids. Yes, occasionally I send all my kids to their rooms because they can't act right - is it effective? Not really, I just need a break from them.

In toddlers, I feel time-out is not a deterent for bad behavior and only useful in giving a child space to calm down.

In older kids - well, from my experience with my kids, for only one of my children is being alone anywhere a bad thing, the other 2 don't mind it at all. The one that does, will pitch such an incredible fit over being alone in his room, that it isn't worth it to use it as a punishment, there are much better alternatives that work just as well without the major meltdown.

So, there it is, my 2 cents.
Melinda