On the heals of my questions about sibling rivalry, I'd now like to pick your brains about parenting methods/discipline. I don't feel like an effective parent. My kids don't listen. Not all of the time, but a lot of the time. I keep trying different approaches, they just tune me out a lot of the time, and getting them to take care of their responsibilities around the house is such a huge undertaking. I hold myself responsible for this. I know consistency is a problem for me. I yell too much. I do really well for a while, but depending on the day, I reach a point and then I yell. My oldest DD is a yeller too, and I know I shaped that quality in her. I really do try to model the behavior I want. Wow, this stuff looks so bad down in print. Please don't hate me, I'm not an awful parent, I just feel that way and do have my moments.

What do you all do as consequences? I'm trying to get my 7 yr old that her actions have consequences and she always has a choice (in her actions). But what consequences. I don't want to spank. I've done that(well, a smack on a hieny on leg---not huge spankings) even though I don't believe it works, etc. Don't want to go that route.

I don't know, any advice would be wonderful. I just want a little order around here and want to stop being the maid to 5 kids (dh is included as a kid, LOL....of course he is a part time kid as he is only home on the weekends!).


Thanks,
Carey

n/t

My favorite:
Setting Limits : How to Raise Responsible, Independent Children by Providing Clear Boundaries
by ROBERT J. MACKENZIE

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0761512128/qid=1104437400/sr=8-2/ref=pd_csp_2/102-3260270-8953746?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

nak:butterfly

I just got "How to talk so your children will listen, and how to listen so your children will talk." So far it's really good, I'm about halfway through.

Anyone else? Any words of wisdom? What works for you?
C'mon, I need your secrets!! ;)
Carey

My children respond better when I go right up to them, touch them gently on the shoulder, look them in the eye and explain what I need them to do.

We also have a set of chores they always do- set table, collect library books throughout the house on retunr day, unload dishwasher (dh loads), put their folded clothes away etc. They also have seasonal family chores like helping with the leaves and such. Having a set of predictable, standard chores is helpful to us because then we don't hear, 'That's not my job, why do I have to do it" etc. They know their jobs, the don't change etc.

We have a central area for books, coats, hats, mittens, backpacks etc. It's a large wooden cubby, each child has a section, 4 hooks, a place for their shoes, and a basket for mittens, hats etc. I encourage them to put their things there so nobody is crying anf we are not frustrated looking for things when we need them. I think a lot emotional energy is spent hunting for lost items "Where did you put it? I didn't wear it" etc. I know we can waste emotional energy on that.

I also don't assume kids can do everything without some guidance. If I see shoes in a place that will result in the shoes being 'misplaced', I pick them up and hand them to the child (not put them away myself) and tell him to put them in the cubby so she can find them when she needs them. Not in a mean way, but in an encouraging way. (Sure I crank about tripping over their crapola sometimes, but that never seems to matter. lol)

Routine meals, sitting down with them as much as possibe and family meals in the evening. I find this helps center us.

If things seem to be getting out of control, I do something with all of them, or one or a couple of them. Maybe play Cuutes & Ladders or Scrabble, maybe a quick game of Uno. If it's one child causing the fuss, I pull that one out and give her (it's usually 5 yr old dd trying to be a tyrant :rolleyes: ) something else to do. Maybe playdo or water colors, washing carrots or something else. SOmetimes just changing the dynamics and setting gets things back on an even keel. I am pretty good about hearing the change in tone, so I keep an ear to see if they will need me to intervene or not.

Engaging the child, not sending to room seems to help my kids a lot.

I like the Sears Dicipline Book.

I love to train up a child by the pearls... has worked wonders for me as well

I like the successful child by DR Sears.

Thank you guys so much. I love hearing what works for other people and getting resources. I know that one of the MAIN problems on my part is consistency. I'm not good at it in MY life, much less keeping things consistent for my kids. I think I will work on that first. I keep trying to come up with responsibilities for them (again, a few that are just theirs and being consistent) I have a 7 y.o., 5 y.o., 2 1/2 y.o., and newborn, but his responsibilites are sleeping, eating, and pooping at this point, adding in a few smiles :) What else do all of your kids do?

Again, thanks!!!
Carey

Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline is hands down the best book I've read. Not only does it help you learn how to help your kids do the right thing, it teaches YOU how to change so you can be a better parent and role model.

Hi Carey,

Hang in there! I have several favorite books. I'm just giving you my top three so I don't overwhelm you. :)

The first was recommended by Nutmeg:
Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child : Eliminating Conflict by Establishing Clear, Firm, and Respectful Boundaries
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0761521364/104-2105078-8015903?v=glance
I am a positive parenting and discipline mom so I do not use time outs. The last portion of this book is about time outs. The first is about how to say things to your child. That is the part I liked. It was very clear and took wishy-washiness out of my language.

The second is:
Siblings Without Rivalry: How to Help Your Children Live Together So You Can Live Too
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380799006/qid=1104593937/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-2105078-8015903
This is a "must-have" book IMO. Their other book was recommended by Louise (cicerosmom) and I highly recommend it as well.

The last is:
The Five Love Languages of Children
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1881273652/qid=1104594024/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-2105078-8015903
This is a super book and helps you understand the importance of "filling your kids up" before concentrating on their behavior. I've only recently read this one and it has become my favorite.

There are other gender-specific books that I have enjoyed. Please keep in mind that the Pearls book advocates switching and punishment for every infraction even for babies as young as 4-6 months old. Their basic message is one of love, but the fact that they base their love=spanking on the bible pretty much turns my stomach. There is a lot of other bible-based literature out there regarding child-rearing. If this is your preferred method, I'll see what i can come up with as far as recommendations. The pearls are hard-core and I think the message of the book can be lost while people are trying so desperately to enforce this harsh method.

You might also enjoy the book Positive Discipline by Jane Nelsen.

Not on a discipline note, but more of a general "getting where your kids are coming from" place, there are the Ames & Ilg/ Ames and Haber books. They go by the titles Your One Year Old, Your 2 Year Old , etc. I have up through nine years old - don't know how high they went with the series. They are very helpful for understanding age-appropriate behaviour and expectations. Plus, everytime we think Patrick's off his rocker or Dylan is hopelessly depressed, we crack open the appropriate book and see that they are quite like their peers, just maybe doing one perfectly age-appropriate behaviour to a great extreme than, say, the neighbor's perfect kid...

Oh, and if you have one of those spirited children in your midst, Raising Your Spirited Child has really helped me with talking to mine when he's not in his easiest mood.

Originally posted by Cicerosum
I just got "How to talk so your children will listen, and how to listen so your children will talk." That's a great book. I have been reading "The Successful Child" by Dr. Sears, and I like that one too.

Originally posted by nymama
I love to train up a child by the pearls... really? :confused:

Originally posted by nymama
I love to train up a child by the pearls... has worked wonders for me as well

:thumbsup:

Lots of info in tying "heart strings" with your children. Always being with them and loving them up. I think this is a great book. If you don't spank, don't spank. But the other info is great regarding bonding with and loving your children. JMHO

anything by the pearls' scares the crap outta me & gives me the heebie jeebies :eek:

how they ever raised confident, independent children who now contribute to society~i will *never* know.

wonder what their grown kids say about how they were raised?

pearl & and that other bum-the babywise loon-what's his name?...they all scare me.

thanks for all of the input. I just bought Siblings Without Rivalry and looked at a few others, some of which you all mentioned. I want to check my library for some of those though.

I'm not a spanker, although I have swatted a bottom before :( I don't really believe it helps, it has been my temper getting the best of ME. :( UGH, I hate even saying that.

I do want my kids to have boundaries and to know what is expected of them and what happens if they don't up hold that. My problem is coming up with the consequence/ holding to it.

My oldest had her children's b-day party taken from her because of behavior/attitude last summer. I hated it, but she had chances to stop/correct her behavior and she chose not to. She actually dealt very well with it. Anyhoo....

I'll check up and do a little research on all of these. My 7 yr. old has always been "spirited" and still is, except a lot of it is her mood now. I always say her emotions are very extreme. She is VERY happy, or VERY mad, etc. No mediums.

Thanks!
Carey

babywise, isn't that ezzo? I ran across it at the bookstore today and cringed. Sorry, that just isn't my cup of tea....

Carey

Originally posted by Carey
babywise, isn't that ezzo? I ran across it at the bookstore today and cringed. Sorry, that just isn't my cup of tea.... Yeah -- and that "To Train Up a Child" is wayy worse than Ezzo. I'll refrain from saying anything else.

Originally posted by norasmama
Yeah -- and that "To Train Up a Child" is wayy worse than Ezzo. I'll refrain from saying anything else. :ditto: :ditto: :ditto:

Heres some samples direct from the pearls website so you can decide if its your "style"

" Our first book on child training, To Train Up A Child, contained an illustration of how we trained our children...

...not to touch guns by placing an unloaded and broken gun in the living room where the children could reach it.We carefully watched them. If they touched it, we spanked their hand with a little switch. One to three switchings was sufficient to prevent the little crawlers and toddlers from ever touching a gun."


"Our children never asked twice, for they knew that it was worse than useless. I say worse than useless because we would reward their negative behavior with a negative response. If I had told a child she could not go where Mother was, and she begged again, I would have taken her where her mother was, given her a spanking, and then returned her to the original location. "

"we guide(d) the parents through responses to their children. “Quit asking,” we would say, “Tell him what to do, and put a little toughness in you voice.” Then we would tell her, “Don’t tell him again; respect your own word; get your switch and apply it right where he stubbornly sits; ignore his self-pity. Don’t assure him of your love; assure him of your authority. You are in the right; put your shoulders back and act like a commanding officer whose word is final. Do not negotiate or explain. Mother, take the whine out of your voice, and put some steel in your posture. Stay calm, but unmoving.”

"Late one night we were riding back from a seminar when the baby noticed that he was on the other end of the seat from his mother. He was riding in a restraining seat, and so whined to sit in his mother’s lap. The father SUGGESTED that it would be best if he stayed strapped into his restraining seat. The mother began to sympathetically explain why she couldn’t hold him. Based on past experiences, he knew that this was just the opening round. Their rejection of his proposal was only tentative. They were just testing the waters to see if he would yield. If by continual insistence he should demonstrate how very important this issue was to him, they would eventually come around to seeing it his way. As he pleaded further, asking for water, I could see that the mother was feeling guilty for not being close to HER BABY. Didn’t his tears demonstrate how important this was to his emotional wellbeing? After six or eight rounds, it finally reached the brokenhearted crying stage.

Mother was reaching for her baby when the father turned to me and asked, “What should I do?” Again I explained the principle—By allowing the child to dictate terms through his whining and crying, you are confirming his habit of whining and consenting to his technique of control. So I told the daddy to tell the boy that he would not be allowed to sit in his mother’s lap, and that he was to stop crying. Of course, according to former protocol, he intensified his crying to express the sincerity of his desires. The mother was ready to come up with a compromise. “He was hungry. He was sleepy. He was cold.” Actually, he was a brat, molded and confirmed by parental responses. I told the Father to stop the car and without recourse give him three to five licks with a switch. After doing so the child only screamed a louder protest. This is not the time to give in to demand. After two or three minutes, driving down the road listening to his background wails, I told the father to COMMAND the child to stop crying. He only cried more loudly. At my instruction, without further rebuke, the father again stopped the car and spanked the child. Still screaming, we continued for two minutes until the father again commanded the child to be quiet. Again, no response, so the car was again stopped and the child spanked. This was repeated for about twenty miles down a lonesome highway at 11:00 on a winter night.

When the situation began to look like a stalemate, the mother suggested that the little fellow didn’t understand. I told the father to command the boy to stop crying immediately or he would again be spanked. The boy ignored him until Father took his foot off the gas, preparatory to stopping. In all his crying, he understood the issues well enough to immediately sense the slowing of the car and understand that it was a response to his crying. The family was relieved to have him stop and the father started to resume his drive. I said “No, you told him he was to stop crying immediately or you would spank him; he waited until you began stopping. He has not obeyed; he is just beginning to show confidence in your resolve. Spank him again and tell him that you will continue to stop and continue to spank until you get instant compliance. The boy was smart. He may not have feared mama. His respect for Daddy was growing, but that big hairy fellow in the front seat seemed to be more stubborn than he was, and with no guilt at all. This time when Daddy gave his command, the boy dried it up like a paper towel. The parents had won and the boy was the beneficiary."

More

"Please give me a description of the switch or rod of which you so often speak. I wish you could send me one so I could see it.

The rod we speak of is a plumbing supply line that can be bought at any hardware store or large department store. It is a slim, flexible, plastic tubing that supplies water to sinks, and toilets. Ask for "¼ inch supply line." They cost less than one dollar. "



How about if you have a disabled child? Heres some great advice:

"To pity our children because we feel guilty or sorry for them is a mistake. It may be almost as painful for us to watch our children fail again and again as it is for them to keep trying. For instance, our daughter with cerebral palsy and autism, age 5, has the use of one hand; that’s it. Her feet stick straight out and her left arm is tucked into her chest. A while ago, she was really getting frustrated because she was the last one to be helped to get dressed. Every morning she would come down the stairs fuming, ready for a fight. Tired of her pouting, we decided that she needed to learn to get dressed herself. She was horrified. She spent the first 2 weeks getting to the breakfast table with only one arm in the same leg hole in her sweat pants."

Got a baby that wont sit in their carseat?

"When she refuses to get into the car seat, give her five licks with a stinging switch. Calmly command her to get in. If she doesn’t, repeat the switching."


"And when you do spank, make sure that it is forceful enough to get her undivided attention. If she can scream "huggie" while you are spanking her, you are probably not spanking hard enough. "

:drop: :eyes: How sad for that little boy. I can't believe anyone would take advice (in reference to the spankings) like this and think it's good for the child. Even if there is good points in that book I wouldn't be able to read it without getting mad.
To answer your questions, I've heard great things about the Dr.Sears books. I also just got a book called PArenting with Heart. I've only read the first few chapters but so far I like it.
much love
-Lindsey

The Pearls are disgusting and though I am all for free speech, think their books should be banned, and anyone dumb and insane enough to use their brand of discipline should not have children.

Kristi

Tell us how you really feel Mama...:D

LOL! Sorry, usually I try very hard to be as non judgemental as possible........like, I think Ezzo is evil, but I can sorta see how some people can think his books are good, if they don't know any better.......I disagree totally, but can see the other viewpoint; but with the Pearls, they are INSANE. Anyone who thinks that hitting BABIES is okay has problems.

Kristi

Hey,now,dont be sorry on my behalf,I agree with you 120%.

I actually have both the Pearls' books, and what they advocate is physical and emotional abuse.

beat your infant/toddler with plumbing supply line...repeatedly, until they learn to fear you or are too exhausted to protest.

Can't you be arrested for treating ANIMALS this way?!

To the op:

A strict schedule of daily events (meals, chores, bedtimes) and a list of no-nonsense responsibilities and consequences has worked well for us.

OMG! I have heard over & over about how awful the Pearls book is, but the exerpts just, wow, I can't believe ANYONE could advocate any of that. How awful!

nm

:eek: :drop: :wah: those poor children. how sad! i cant even put it into words right now. :tear:

WOW!!! I didn't say she (or anyone else for that matter) had to follow/read/agree with what the Pearls said. The OP asked for parenting books suggestions. This is one (of many) that I liked. I like the Pearls. No, I don't agree with EVERYTHING they say, but then again I don't agree with everything Dr. Sears says. Like I learned in LLL, take what fits for your family and leave the rest.

Of course, don't spank your babies. But if you are having trouble with your 7 yr old and ask for advise, maybe different opinions could be helpful.

I also like Dr. Sears, Speak So You Child Will Listen..., Kids are worth it, and many other books that don't advocate spanking. But, the Pearls have some good info also-IF YOU CAN LOOK PAST THE SPANKING!!! I even said that if you don't spank, don't spank.

Opinions promoting spanking aren't welcome here.

Originally posted by BunnyMcFluff
Opinions promoting spanking aren't welcome here.

No one is promoting spanking.

I simply said that their OTHER ideas were helpful in developing a loving relationship with your children!!!

Originally posted by CincoDeMama
anything by the pearls' scares the crap outta me & gives me the heebie jeebies :eek:

how they ever raised confident, independent children who now contribute to society~i will *never* know.

wonder what their grown kids say about how they were raised?

pearl & and that other bum-the babywise loon-what's his name?...they all scare me.

ITA!

Originally posted by Sunbeam
No one is promoting spanking.

I simply said that their OTHER ideas were helpful in developing a loving relationship with your children!!!

Of course there are. But if that's your aim, the Pearls' sure as hell aren't the way to go.

Originally posted by BunnyMcFluff
Of course there are. But if that's your aim, the Pearls' sure as hell aren't the way to go.

Don't imply that it was me, cuz I didn't!!!

Originally posted by Sunbeam
No one is promoting spanking.

I simply said that their OTHER ideas were helpful in developing a loving relationship with your children!!!

The Pearls not only promote spanking, they go above and beyond and promote "switching" a baby! So what if they have other advice; the bulk of their "parenting" advice is rooted in abuse and fear, and those views aren't welcome here. I think you need read the UA, and maybe find somewhere else to post these vile opinions.


Kristi

Originally posted by grisandole
The Pearls not only promote spanking, they go above and beyond and promote "switching" a baby! So what if they have other advice; the bulk of their "parenting" advice is rooted in abuse and fear, and those views aren't welcome here. I think you need read the UA, and maybe find somewhere else to post these vile opinions.


Kristi

Again, and this is the last time I'll say it, I did NOT advocate spanking. If you can quote where I did, then I'll edit and apologize.

I think you are being very rude when you say my opinions are vile. I don't see the reason for personal attacks. Are personal attacks in the the UA?

I could just cry.

Hitting a baby? Honey- if you touch this loaded gun, I'll beat you before you can blow your own head off. Wow. I swear, that's exactly how you grow a psychopath.

Hitting a child, even a 7 yr old? And withholding a beloved b'day party? (Please there *are * better ways-- unless this was a teenager, of course. ;-) ).

Where is the joy? What's the point of family?

*Support* your child, *help* them to learn. Let them know you are there for them, not to push them into a corner, ticking off punishments or waiting around with a whip (switch, hand, cruel words...whatthehellever).

Punishment will not work in the long run and will damage a child in short order. I disagree with punishment. "If you don't do a b and c then you can't have d".

How about instead:

"This is what we need to do. Lets think of ways to help each other achieve a, b & c ." If a child is not cleaning his room (for instance), he obviously needs parental support to do so. Some kids need company to accomplish certain things and get sidetracked or feel abandoned. Of course you can give punishment if he won't do it without support, but how does than build trust and respect?

It's so much kinder and a much better learning opportunity to be there near him, supporting him. I am just not into the kind of parenting where you call to a kid do something and then you expect him to do it alone. From homework to loading the dishwasher. If a child is under 11 or so, they need and deserve our company...we can;t just give orders and expect them to jump. Well, of course all ages deserve this, but small children esp do.

How can you ignore a books core and really take anything else from it? I don't see how you could see what abuse the Pearls advocate, and still be willing, or wanting, to listen to their "other advice"...? Their core is to abuse physically, and not just general spanking. Parts of their book say if you don't use strict physical discipline, your children will not suceed as well, or listen. How can you take anything positive from people who advocate that?

Scary crap.

(I too had to read the book (only one thank goodness)...I got less than 25% done with it, skimmed parts, and told my office no, it would not be on our peds recommended list for parents. Nevah. LOL.)

My fave books for strong willed kids are the "Spirited Child" ones by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka, and the William Sears "Sucessful Child" one.

Originally posted by mommy2maya
OMG! I have heard over & over about how awful the Pearls book is, but the exerpts just, wow, I can't believe ANYONE could advocate any of that. How awful!

no kidding. i've got goosebumps and a lump in my throat just from reading the quotes on this thread. switching a 6 month old?!? that is fecking sick, demented, psychotic and abusive.

Well, I think the OP has lots and lots of opinions to choose from. I hope that she finds what fits for her family.

There are lots of great books to choose from. Of course, no one book will fit for everyone 100%. Take what you can use from each book and do the best you can.

Originally posted by Sunbeam
Don't imply that it was me, cuz I didn't!!!

Huh? You said "I simply said that their OTHER ideas were helpful in developing a loving relationship with your children!!!"

And I said that if developing a loving relationship was your (general you) goal, the Pearls' aren't the way to do that.

You'll be hard pressed to find anyone here who's going to give the Pearl suggestion a thumbs up. It just ain't gonna happen.

c&ped from another list:

Regarding Michael and Debi Pearl, I have recently finished their book
"No Greater Joy," which is similar to their baby-whipping book "To Train
Up a Child." "No Greater Joy" is a collection of the Pearls' articles.
Articles on "training" (whipping babies & children until they
instantly obey) are interspersed with advice on homeschooling, marriage,
and potty-training newborns (!) In the "training" articles the Pearls
call whipping with a belt or tree branch "switching" and "spanking," and
whipping once is called a "spat." They demean babies and children with
terms such as "brat, "crybaby," "emotional manipulator," and "selfish."
They also say youth is "a disease" and babies use "terrorist tactics."
The Pearls claim whipping babies makes them cheerful!??

Please take a moment to write a review of "No Greater Joy" at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/write-a-review.html/102-4179617-0438562?%5Fencoding=UTF8&asin=1892112019&store=books

Here are some references you can use:

At the beginning of the book (p. 3-4) this story is told: a 7 year old
has a Twinkie that he is trying to eat but his mother doesn’t want him
to eat it. Michael Pearl recommends to “tell him that he will be denied
sweets for one week. Reinforce it with a spanking. Let him suffer
deprivation while the other family members indulge.” If the boy screams
and protests after the parent takes the Twinkie away, the parent is to
“Lead him to the place where the ‘magic wand’(switch or "rod") is kept
and give him respect for the ‘Powers that be.’” Pearl calls the boy a
“Twinkie Twerp.”

On p.4 the Pearls write “The rod…can completely check the ‘evil’
manifestations of the heart.”

2 pages later, the Pearls are asked for advice: “My two-year-old will
not stay in bed when I put him down. It seems like I am whipping him too
much. No matter how many times I whip him he still gets up.” This is
their recommendation: “If your spankings are too light to gain his
respect, an increase in the intensity might be more persuasive.” p.6
“If he gets up, when his feet hit the floor, spring into the room with
your little switch and pop him on the bare leg one or two times.”
“Never allow him to get his way.” p.7

If a child screams or cries “Just ignore him. Don’t be moved by it.
Don’t pick him up.” If the child says he is hurt give him “a terrible
tasting herbal potion.” p.9

The Pearls say this about public schools (presumably about hitting
children with "paddles"): “(Teachers) will excuse their lack of control
in the classroom by pointing to the laws that prevent them from
exercising discipline. For the present, we homeschool parents are still
free to discipline.” p.12

Page 17 is heartbreaking and I thought you might want to read it in its
entirety - click here http://www.stoptherod.net/no-greater-joy-p17.html

On p.19 Michael Pearl jokes about a “tot” getting “half a dozen little
spankings a day.”

On p.20 Michael Pearl praises a family in which for a year a boy “was so
sick that when he finally got to a doctor, the doctor expressed
amazement that he was still alive.”

To the question “Should a mature ten-year-old be allowed to switch a
two-year-old if the mother is unavailable?” Michael Pearl says
“Ten-year-olds ought to be mature enough to discipline a smaller child.
In our house, there was no difference between the parents and the
older children in enforcing the rule of law over the younger children.”
p.24-25

When a 3 year old screams the Pearls recommend: “without saying a word
go straight to the switch. Spank her where she stands.” “Never
threaten, and never show mercy. One squeak of a scream gets a
switching.” p.26

Here is some crazy teaching about violence from Michael Pearl: If a
child hits, bites, kicks or shoves he should get “a thorough spanking.
Children must be taught that violence is never an acceptable alternative
in personal conflicts.” ??? p.27

When a 4 year old screams “Turn and walk away. If she were to scream
again, turn back and give her a spanking.” p.30

On p.31 Michael Pearl describes slapping a horse 10 times because the
horse was begging for food scraps.

On p.33 “A mother describes her dilemma: ‘I get so frustrated with the
children. No matter how many times I tell them or spank them, they just
do the same thing again. We just go around and around.’” Michael Pearl
recommends “meeting every transgression with a swift penalty.” “They
will obey.”

On p.34 Michael Pearl relates the story of a mother hitting her 11 month
old who doesn’t want to eat any more “spinach-squash-mush” and shoves it
away. The mother “picked up her little enforcer (whip), which was lying
on the table, and swatted the child’s hand.” When the baby tries to
shove the food away again she “received another spat.” Michael Pearl
says about this scenario: “I loved it. It was beautiful.” (p. 35) And
then on p. 36 he says “I must encourage those of you with small
children, train up your children now. Don’t want until they are one
year old to start training. Rebellion and self-will should be broken in
the six-month-old when it first appears. Take this young mother’s
example and think of ways you can train your child.” (a "smiley face" is
pictured here)

On p.46 a mother is described as ignoring her crying 3 month old, until
the baby “became cheerful.” The story ends with Michael Pearl’s comment
about a teenager visiting this mother and baby: “Maybe when this young
girl becomes a mother she will have the wisdom to begin training her
newborns and not wait until they are three months old.”

On p.47 a 9 month old is left crying, sitting alone and ignored. Pearl
recommends coming by to pat her on the head every 10 minutes. This is
cruel and neglectful, and possibly dangerous.

On p.72 Michael Pearl says “switches and rods make many things mighty
inconvenient (for the child).” (another "smiley face")

On p.85 Michael Pearl recommends giving a little girl who won’t get into
her car seat “five licks with a stinging switch.” If the girl still
doesn’t get in the seat “repeat the switching.” If the little girl
continues to refuse to get in the seat he says to take the seat into the
house and strap the girl in it for “two or three hours.”

On p.96: when one of the Pearls’ children "tattled" on another child
Debi Pearl “spanked both of them regardless of who did the tattling.”

Please take a moment to write a review of this horrible book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/write-a-review.html/ref=cm_rev_write_2/102-7365167-0403336?asin=1892112019&store=books

Thank You! Your review will help others stay away from this harmful book!

Sue Lawrence
http://stoptherod.net
http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org

P.S. If any of you would like my copy of "No Greater Joy" to read for
yourself, let me know - I'd like to get it out of the house :(
************************************************** ***********************
“We live in a world in which we need to share responsibility. It is
easy to say, ‘It’s not my child, not my community, not my world, not my
problem.’ Then there are those who see the need and respond. I
consider those people my heroes.” – Fred Rogers

Originally posted by BunnyMcFluff
Huh? You said "I simply said that their OTHER ideas were helpful in developing a loving relationship with your children!!!"

EXACTLY. Their OTHER ideas have merit. They home birth, co sleep and EBF. Do those things not have merit because the also spank their children?

[i]And I said that if developing a loving relationship was your (general you) goal, the Pearls' aren't the way to do that.[/B]

And that's YOUR opinion. Not a vile one, simply an opinion. YOU (a directed you) don't like them, so be it. But this mama asked for advise. When someone asks for advise, they will likely get many different things to chose from.

I didn't see the OP flamed cuz she spanks her kiddos.

[i]You'll be hard pressed to find anyone here who's going to give the Pearl suggestion a thumbs up. It just ain't gonna happen. [/B]

What does that have to do with the OP's question? She asked for advise. She doesn't have listen to me or anyone else for that matter. But don't hijack the thread because you hate the Pearls.

This simply is not the forum to advocate for the Pearl's, no way no how. The only time they should be mentioned is to advise to stay AWAY from their books.

Everything I have ever heard about them is simply appalling! I could not imagine ignoring my 3month= I can't imagine ignoring the needs of my 19month old!

Yes, children all need to learn to behave, and discipline will be needed- using techniques that would be frowned upon by an animal trainer is NOT the way to do it though. I couldn't imagine hitting my child with a 'switch' everytime they looked cross-eyed. Never in a million years.

Originally posted by mommy2maya
using techniques that would be frowned upon by an animal trainer is NOT the way to do it though.

Interesting point. The switch does make me think of people who work with lions in circuses etc.

As most people who have "trained" a puppy/dog, know...positive reinforcement (and a confident alpha owner) is much more successful than negative reinforcement.

No, Sunbeam. Their other ideas don't have merit because they beat the hell out of their kids.

I'm not sure how many other ways I can put this. The Pearls' books are worthless. Because they beat their kids. So who gives a fu.ck if they homebirth, extended nurse, or cosleep? It doesn't matter, because they *beat the hell out of their kids*.

You *can't* advocate for the Pearls' books here. They advocate spanking, and by advocating for the Pearls, you are advocating for spanking. And you can't do that.

Advocating for the Pearls here is like advocating a PETA cookbook on a full on carnivore website.

And the Pearls are not to be discredited simply because "they spank their kids"...they don't simply spank their kids. They beat them down, emotionally and physically. They use objects to cause physical pain, they do this starting at a few months of age. That is not spanking. That is abuse. You can not, imo, take advice about parenting from an abuser.

Thank you Denise and BunnyMcFluff for saying what I was trying to :)

Kristi

As to the OP...I really like Loving Your Child Is Not Enough

As for the Pearls, I agree with BunnyMcFluff that the fact that they homebirth, co sleep or whatever doesn't mean squat since they beat their kids and teach other parents how to beat their kids. IMO, that doesn't make them loving parents who make different choices, it makes them sickos that also homebirth and homeschool and whatnot. I'm 100% sure they don't homebirth and homeschool for the same reasons I do.

ugh. Just thinking of what they advocate doing to children is enough to make me vomit. yuck.

ETA: The OP stated that she's spanked in the past and hated doing it and wants to find other ways to discipline. Why would we flame her for that??!

these excerpts, with their smarmy euphamisms for spanking and its implements and further sly little turns of phrase, read like pornography of the worst sort.

I do not see how I could read past these vile and disgusting passages to find anything worthwhile.

It's like asking me to read some true murder mystery to my kids as hope they pick up on the artful description of a sunrise OVER the murdered shell of a victim while ignoring the horror of the crime itself -- ain't gonna happen.

Let me first say that I really like Suzie. God bless her for finding something useful in that book. :)

So, this response is for Suzie, but it is absolutely not an attack.

The Pearl book is based on fear. First and foremost, a child fears his parent. Second, the Pearls advocate this method out of the fear of God. Now, we have all heard the expression God-fearing, but it has been interpreted to mainly mean to consider how God would feel first before we act. This book truly advocates fear of God.

One passage told of a mother who said: "I could never hit my child. I love him too much." The Pearls response was: "If you don't do you this to your child, you don't love him." WTF.

We briefly touched on legalism on another board regarding doing God's will in a robot-like fashion or using our minds to determine how God's will fits in. The pearls seem to advocate legalism. IOW-If my kids have done nothing that I (or I believe God hasn't )see(n) worthy of a switch BUT it would make the Pearls squirm, have I not pleased God? What makes the Pearls the judge and jury of childish behavior? In addition, they firmly believe that if every issue isn't solved in the moment, you will have a 1st class brat on your hands in the future. This simply isn't true. We've all been parents long enough to know that.

I'll be the first to say I'm not Christian. In fact, I'm sort of embarrassed to say that this book was sort of the final straw in my exploring Christianity even though it is how I was raised. While I realize that this is a big stretch for some, I honestly had no desire to be a part of something that advocated the fear of God so vehemently.

Also, I may be cold, but I don't even feel anger when I read stories of this method in action. I just feel such sadness for the parents who had a weak foundation of love in their own upbringing to draw on now that they are parents. They sought out help, and this is what they found....

It is so easy to say: Take what you need and leave the rest. However, when the very principals of the book are so contrary to what I believe and many other people believe, I simply cannot even recommend this book to anyone. I don't want any person to have to read about the Pearl's technique. At best, they'll be horrified. At worst, they'll actually try it.

Last night, I was just re-reading _The Five Love Languages of Children_. It is such a super book and definitely talks about God in some cases. I think the authors are likely religious men. It is such a beautiful book about the "heart strings" (the Pearl phrase), without one mention of doing it out of fear or or turning your back on God's love. That is the kind of book I can recommend.

So, if i haven't totally made you mad, we should get together again sometime. :)

:wah: The Pearl books truly ought to be pulled from bookstore shelves. What sick & perverted people they are. They ought to be locked up.

TBH, this kind of teaching is why dh and I haven't set foot in a church since we were pg with Conor. I am so appalled that people could do this to sweet little babes in the name of God. I am not trying to flame you sunbeam, but thos books have no place here. Just because they do ebf, and cosleep doesn't mean they have an ounce of credit. They don't do those things to meet the needs of their children. They don't care one bit about the needs of their children.

to the op. I second the Successful child recommendation and many others made in this thread.

Anyone raising a child in fear like this is kidding themselves if they think EBF is going to make one **** bit of difference in the emotional life of an adult raised in such a bitter way.

I didn't mean to start anything like this I swear. I'm sorry. I am pretty taken aback by the Pearls. I can't imagine using this method. It makes me sad :(

I did want to go back and clarify a few things though. Yes, I have spanked a butt or two, and am embarrassed to admit it. I don't do it regularly, and like another poster said it is usually because I reach MY limit and act on my rage/temper, etc. Not rational thinking. I don't consider myself a spanker. It just doesn't happen that often.

Also, in response to something I think Mamax4 said in regard to my dd losing her b-day party. My two older dd's typically have 2 parties, their big family party and a one where they invite their friends (kid party). She still had quite a lovely b'day party with all of her family---grandparents, greatgrandparents, uncle, cousin, etc. (and got far too much :) )She just lost the privilage of having the kid party. I actually gave her the option fo inviting 1 friend and she didn't want to. I just wanted to clarify that. :)

I feel like I really sound like a tyrant now. :(

I do appreciate all the advice though.
Carey

Oh Carey, don't feel like a tyrant. I didn't even know who said that about the bday party. I also was not thinking the person was evil. I was trying to make the point that supporting our children in what we wish them to do is the first step in helping them become competent adults. Punishment and with-hodling sets up a cycle of emotional negativity, in the parent and in the child.

We have to help our kids grow in love. And sometimes that means not putting out punishment when the goals can be accomplished in a more trusting way.

Anyway, I think you are sweet. So, tell us, what did the bday child do that she lost her party? :p

Hmmm, ya know, it wasn't one thing. We were on vacation and she was showing extreme disrespect for us and her sister. Saying the most awful/mean things, attitude, etc. I had tried so many alternatives ( talking, acknowledging her feelings,etc. etc. etc) and again, I had just reached that point where I couldn't take it any longer. Looking back, had we not been on vacation, with family and under everyones watch, I probably would have had a longer fuse. I felt after I made the statement though, I needed to stick to it. The attitude and treatment of her sister is the main issue with her. She is a really sweet kid.

Anyway, that doesn't give a really good picture of what happened, but it was a long time ago. It's hard to remember when it wasn't one event but a behavior that had gone on for days.

:)
Carey

I can't help it. I just can't. You should SEE where these people live. My sister-in-law lives near there. It's NOWHERE. I mean it's over 1/2 and hour to any kind of town or business.

Also, PLEASE, please, I BEG you, do NOT believe that these people represent Christianity as a whole. They are a tiny, tiny segment of an entire faith. I am a christian and never, ever, ever would I advocate anything like this. Never. I shudder to think that someone would put me in this catagory - or my church. Please.

More frightening quotes below.

This is not even her child!

A little knuckle-head came to visit me the other day. I looked in the daddy's eyes and asked, "May I play mama for a few minutes?"

I couldn’t help but adore the little guy; no doubt he depended upon that. But my brains are bigger than my heart (no sh!t), so I whacked him once across the offending hand with his whacking stick

**********************

About wives:

God created you to fulfill your husband’s basic masculine needs. Only in that role will you find peace and cause your man to respond to you in loving adoration.

**********************

As the military drills their soldiers, you must drill your children.

Children can also be disciplined by denying a privilege or pleasure. But this kind of penal discipline will only work when they know you have the power of the rod to enforce your rule. The ultimate child motivator is the rod.

The rod falls within three seconds of the disobedience. You don’t even break stride

The soul of your child needs to be punished. He feels the need to suffer for his misdeeds.

(about the rods) They come cheaper by the dozen and can be widely distributed in every room and vehicle. Just the high profile of their accessibility keeps the kids in line.

If a child flees, don’t chase him. Go to his hiding place and laugh at his frail attempts If he is locked in his room, explain that you will unlock the door. There is no escape.

(this is in response to a question about a screaming four-year-old .) When she screams or flees, calmly follow through by physically subduing her. Sit on her, if you have to, and slowly explain that you will not tolerate this resistance.

(this is in answer to a question about a four-year-old who will not stay in her bed) Do not drag her to the bed. It is important that she exercise her own will to obey. If she throws a screaming fit, give her several moderate licks every few minutes and wait beside her until she is so tired she obeys. Do this all night long, every night, until she readily complies.

(for a shy child) When Johnny shows shyness or social fear, attempting to withdraw into your embrace, never hold him or reassure him. When he gets behind you, push him away and say something remote and indifferent like, “Don’t get behind me, go play.”

A young mother of three children was playing ball when she saw her eighteen-month-old daughterbeing steered toward the court by a small child about five years old....When she got within hollering range the five-year-old began to explain that the little one had fallen on the ground....Would the mother train her child to be independent and tough, or would she train her to be a crybaby and a whiner? How could the mother entirely eliminate this negative behavior? Do not give the child any of what she wants. Tell her to stop crying, “Now!,” and without making sympathetic eye contact, go to her and switch her on the leg (one lick) so that it hurts, and as you turn away, over your shoulder say, “Stop crying and go play.” Don’t give her any of what she wants, and make sure that what you do give her will be unpleasant. (this child is only 18 months old!)

Originally posted by djmdj
[B]

Also, PLEASE, please, I BEG you, do NOT believe that these people represent Christianity as a whole. They are a tiny, tiny segment of an entire faith. I am a christian and never, ever, ever would I advocate anything like this. Never. I shudder to think that someone would put me in this catagory - or my church. Please.





Yes,please Mamas,dont think this is Christianity.If you study the scriptures,you will see how deeply Jesus loved and respected children.

And remember,Dr.Sears is a Christian,and a much better example of one :) :thumbsup:

They read like a front for a hard core S&M porn site. Sickening. There is something *seriously* wrong with their brains. And imagine, nobody has called DSS on them.

I just saw this thread and read through the entire thing...I cannot believe how sickening those Peals are. I feel literally ill at the thought of switching ANYONE, let alone an infant or toddler. :wah: How can social services not be involved with these wacko parents? How old are thier children now, does anyone know?

I was going to suggest one more book, Kids Are Worth It, and I can't even think of the author right now, I'm so disturbed. I also just finished reading "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen," by Adele Farber and Elaine Mazlish, and am about 1/3 of the way through "Siblings Without Rivalry" by the same authors. The books are pretty much just common sense, but when it comes to talking to my little ones, sometimes I need a jolt of common sense...I keep forgetting how little they are, yet how much they really do understand!

Michelle

I find that the most important thing for our family is to keep things calmer and make sure everyone has enough sleep. I know that sounds silly, but you were talking about your vacation, and I know my kids have a harder time when we're away from home. Add to that the stressed out parents and the scrutinizing relatives, and something's going to blow. DH and I have agreed that if one of us is about to scream at a kid, instead, we ask the other parent to take over. It works really well for us. We're never at our wits' end at the same time.



Most of us weren't reared gently, and it's a journey for us to get there. Good wishes to you on your journey.

The two best books for me have been, well three:

The Continuum Concept (best for pre-baby)
Loving [them] is not enough by Nancy Samalin
Hold On To Your Kids by Neufeld (must have, absolutely must have. Not printed in US yet, get from chapters.ca)

I have read and re-read the last one so many time. It is so thought provoking and needed.

ETA: Non-violent Communication

OMG! I just read this whole thread and cried through all of those HORRIFYING excerpts! I think my step father when I was growing up must have been reading these books, b/c these were his methods (NOT my mother's - she was just as abused). I feel like I was abused as a child and although I hadn't seen him since I was 13 (when I was removed from my mother's custody because of HIS abuse) I had to be at a party for my brother's (his and my mother's son) wedding with him last week and I was so nervous, I thought I was going to have a panic attack just because I had to see him and be in the same room as him. This is what happens when people raise their kids like that!

Originally posted by craftykitty
OMG! I just read this whole thread and cried through all of those HORRIFYING excerpts! I think my step father when I was growing up must have been reading these books, b/c these were his methods (NOT my mother's - she was just as abused). I feel like I was abused as a child and although I hadn't seen him since I was 13 (when I was removed from my mother's custody because of HIS abuse) I had to be at a party for my brother's (his and my mother's son) wedding with him last week and I was so nervous, I thought I was going to have a panic attack just because I had to see him and be in the same room as him. This is what happens when people raise their kids like that!

I agree. I feel the same way around my step father and it's been 11 years since he hit me. (when I finally threatened to call social services - I was 16!)

Me too, it's been 12 years. It's amazing how things that happen in your childhood can reduce you to feeling like a helpless child again around that person. It just confirms the vast importance of treating children with respect and dignity.

i just finished 1 2 3 Magic and i love it. no more yelling aurging or power srtuggles. it's just 1,2,3. your out. the child then takes a break in their bebroom or any time out place. for the same minutes of their age. and when that over that's it no discussing what went wrong. it also has lots of ways to impement start behaviors. i'm no good at explaining but it really works.
1 2 3 Magic my dd is only three but it's geared for 2-12 year olds so it will work for everyone.
good luck :monkeydan

I had never read any of the Pearl's stuff. That is so horrendous.


I love The Emotional Intelligence of Children by John Gottman
and Kids, Parents and Power Struggles by Mary Sheedy Kurchinka (think that's her name, same author as Raising your Spirited Child)

i read that one too. it is a good read.

really? :confused:
Yes really. I love how you ladies only add in the negative... I have and will advocate for the Pearls any time. I have seen their meathod work and it works for me. No my kids are not scared of me. I am a much more calmer person since I have read the To Train up a child. I didnt have my childrens heart strings. I no longer yell and I no longer spank my kids because they listen the first time I say something. If you go and read something with a negative attitude about it then that is what you are going to see. If you go with a positive attitude then that is what you are going to see. This is all I am going to say on this subject because clearly I am in the minority here.

I edited to add when I first and even this time, I didnt relize this was in the gentle parenting area... until I was looking at something differnt... I am in the minority here. Think what you may I wasnt trying to make you spankers or anything. Just defending what I believe like you ladies have done with what you believe...

It's nauseating. I thought it was an urban legend, but it's really, really sad that REAL people could find something positive in treating children like sh!t and make it a lifestyle...

I consider myself an semi-tyranical mom, specially since I'm a single, tired mom of 2 young girls, I've spanked little butts a couple times as well, but it's not something I'm proud of... actually it's like a defeat for me. I'm an adult they're kids, I have to model positive attitudes and ways to face the world with respect. I can not simply take advantage of my physical power in order to "train" them like dogs.

I don't want to educate my children to be someone else slaves...