i cannot even begin to put into words how incredibly angry i am at our ped and her lc. against my better judegment, i went to the ped to have sutton's weight checked (bfar baby) and entered a world of bad advice, little to no bfar knowledge, and lots of ignorance.

my baby has a short frenulum (aka-anterior tongue tie/horseshoe tongue). he is unable to sufficiently milk my breast, and has yet to receive any of my hindmilk due to his inability to stay latched long enough to soften my breast.

i was told that i have little milk, and not enough to sustain my baby. i was told there was no need for me to pump, that it would only put more pressure on me to perform, and that there was indeed an anterior frenulum, but it wasn't "bad enought to clip".

i rented a hospital grade pump and am able to pump out 4 oz on my left breast and 2 on my right (always has made less), every 2 hrs. TELL ME I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MILK.

my baby lost a pound of weight during his first 5 days-and i KNEW all along, he had this issue, but couldn't find anyone to listen to me! the ped's office admitted that they haven't referred anyone on a clipping in over 5 yrs and simply refuse to do it-regardless of how severe. they claim there are lots of children who were never clipped and they are able to feed. (yes, but i bet none BF!!)

after me threatening to leave the practice (ie-5 kids), they gave me the name of someone an hr away...i called around my town out of the phone book and found someone to do it this afternoon-an ent.

wth was that so freaking hard? took me 15 mins, and i was able to locate someone. i would really like to run into my ped in a dark back alley somewhere soon. she better have mace.

as for sutton, we've been syringe finger feeding him since 3 days ago. it's exhausting, frustrating, and has been a confusing time for our entire family :(

he's unable to maintain a latch and my nips are bloody and raw.

but i'm a pumping fool, as to assure he gets human milk over abm (which he has had on a handful of ocassions-DIDN'T THINK I'D EVER GO THERE...). this baby is the lesson of my life, that is for sure.

although i know things will get better, and i'm hoping that this procedure will enable him to get what i have. my breasts overflow with love for him, and it's killing me to not be able to nurse him like he deserves.

anyway, there's our update and what's been up with us.

i'm exhausted, determined, and pissed-as usual :p

but in the end, it'll all be worth it, right?

((kas)) T was clipped too & i don't understand WHY they wouldn't do it..omg, it took like a few seconds to do T's.

thinking of you & Hoping things settle down :)

Hey Kas. It is so stressful to see dr's that have a varying opinion of ours. I finally found a doctor on this side that is wonderful! She doesn't even give vaccines :D She says if someone wants them, they can go to the health clinic for them. Her name is Linda Rodriguez if you want to look her up.

I can't imagine the fustration you must be feeling! I hope that he can get it clipped (and quickly) and that bfing will go smoothly from then on,a nd be everything that you've been hoping for!

Originally posted by CincoDeMama
i they claim there are lots of children who were never clipped and they are able to feed. (yes, but i bet none BF!!)

I am so sorry you have to deal with this! All three of my children had short frenulums, Jordan (my oldest) being the most severe with the perfect little heart shaped tongue. It sounds like Sutton is having way worse issues with it, though so I'm guessing his is on the major severe end. :(

They told me I would never be able to breastfeed him so decided in the hospital to give him a bottle against my wishes. Never mentioned clipping, just said if I wanted to give him breastmilk, I'd have to pump period. Hooked me up to a milker (double, felt like a cow and everyone staring at me to boot!) and then said he'd have to drink through a little tube.

BUT I did persevere and he DID begin breastfeeding...after about 2-3 weeks of pumping over tears. :( I think his frenulum stretched (this can happen).

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I did BF my three who all had short frenulums of various degrees. I am SO grateful I didn't listen to those frickin nurses who told me I would never be able to breastfeed!!! Not saying this to be snotty at all, btw. Just addressing the quote above.

BTW, my doctor said the same, they wouldn't clip until it came to the point that they got older and he had eating or vocabulary problems due to the short frenulum.

BTW, around 1-2 yrs, he actually fell in to the side of a wooden chair and "clipped" it on his own. Ack!

oh kas. i'm so sorry to hear how difficult its been... i hope that you can get the clip done fast and nurse that boy.

keeping you in our prayers

I don't understand why they wouldn't do it. They will circ a baby boy but not clip a frenulum? wtf?

My dd had hers clipped 13 - eegads almost 14 years ago - and it made ALL the difference.

I hope you find someone to do it asap.

hang in there!

Kas, that REALLY sucks!! The ladies that I studied under have snipped a few tongues in their time. I don't know how severe it is for Sutton, but there are many tied tongues that aren't a big deal to snip. I'm not suggesting that you should have taken it upon yourself to do, because I don't think that I would be able to do it myself. I just think that your ped is making far too big of a deal about this whole thing. Are they more hands off because he was born unassisted?? Why do people have to make an already difficult situation harder!!! :::if I could only know which dark alley:::

rachel has a short frenulum. it was a lot of work but she was and is breastfed.

Well that just bites! So sorry Kas,,,but you are the strongest mama I know, and you will get through this,and may kick a few butts in the process!

Did the Dr say anything about the baby being born at home, UC? We are finding here even with babies born at home with a CPM, peds are refusing to see them. It is pretty wacked..and we aren't sure what to do about it.

Keep us posted Kas..

kas-- my suggestion would be to try a nipple shield-- no they arent optimal, but with liam they did help us get started-- it took abt 2 weeks to wean him off of it, but it did help him latch, and get more of my nipple into his mouth. We syringe fed for 2 days and it was terrible-- absoluetely terrible. The shield helped me make it through until he was a bit more used to the concept of nursing, and then we weaned off of it.

hope you get some help soon :(
heather

Hey Kas! Sorry to hear that but glad you found someone to do it!

What clinic do ya'll go to?

Oh Kas and Sutton {{{{HUGS}}}} I am so sorry you are going through this! I will be praying you find someoune to help you!

Short frenulums can also cause speech problems, other than just breast feeding problems. Even if a doctor didn't see the need because of breastfeeding alone, they should be willing to because of the possibility of speech problems.

Personally, mine needed to be clipped but wasn't picked up on until I should have been speaking understandably, and wasn't. (Sometime when I was 2 if I was told correctly). I had speech problems for many years and had to go to speech classes through elementary school, and hated it!

Believe me, that is one of the things I checked on my babies. I also for sure would have found a doc that would do it if my primary MD gave me trouble. I just can't fathom why a doctor would give grief over it, though. Sorry you had to put up with that.

Originally posted by Sontanned
I finally found a doctor on this side that is wonderful! She doesn't even give vaccines :D She says if someone wants them, they can go to the health clinic for them. Her name is Linda Rodriguez if you want to look her up.

Oh yeah, another reason for me to go up to Va, lol! I already go up there to go to our dentist, to do our grocery shopping, and to the nearest JoAnns. Maybe I should just move to Tidewater...ok, maybe not....but darn, do I ever go up there a lot, lol!!

(((Hugs))) Kas, mama :heart: You are already a she-womon in many of our books. Just when you think you had parenthood all figured out life tosses a baby like Sutton your way to sober you up real quick...ain't that always the way? My Sebastian taught me many similar lessons about myself, parenting, b/fing, and life. It makes you want to hug them tighter for it, yk? I know its frustrating but follow your instict cuz you know what's best for your little man. Heck, you knew better than anyone about how best to birth him, right? It'll all work out soon, I'm sure.

Love to you,

{{{hugs}}}}

Love Val

while Mani was working on his latch. Don't let it get you down, Kas, it'll get better. It's too bad the medical profession so often discounts a mother's instinct - they should respect it even more since it's nothing THEY could possibly learn...

Kas, I'm glad you found someone to do it. i was going to offer La Leche League International's phone number for the office in Schaumburg, IL (heck, here it is anyway 847-519-7730.) Usually they have a list of Leaders who have gone through the same situation and they can help you find someone to do the procedure. This is true of all special situations.

I'm sorry this is messin' with your breasfeeding and I do hope it gets resolved very soon.

hey mama. so sorry to hear you are having problems nursing.
my gabriel is tongue tied also. all the way to the tip of his tongue. i took him to the pediatrician and she said it does not need to be clipped unless i am having pain while nursing him. to make sure he got hindmilk i would nurse only on one side for a few hours. he was always hungry because he was not getting enough hindmilk and was gassy/green poopies until i started doing this. he has gained very well - about a pound a week and it seems to have stretched a bit. he can touch his lip with it now and could not do that at birth.
i still only nurse on one side at each feeding but they are not every 30 minutes now since he can get more out.
it is possible to bf a baby who is tongue tied but if you are having trouble they should clip it. here in FL they frefer you to a specialist and do it under general anesthesia.
i hope you find help soon! (((hugs)))

edited to say: gabriel has the heart shaped tongue and now i am wondering why i didn't have more trouble bf- maybe my nipples have realy turned to rubber since i have been nursing since april of 2000. hmmmm?

update~

went to the ent-and he agreed that it's severe enough to clip-wanted to do it under general in the or/hospital, but i refused and opted (against his wishes) to do it in-office tomorrow before noon (11:45).

general scares me, but i'm also scared because they do three disolvable sutures on the frenulum to prevent it from reattaching later. nobody i've spoken with has had these sutures done, so i questioned him on it and he said he would only do it w/them, and not at all without...so we're going to have sutt clipped and stitched...omg, that's just so horrid a picture, i cannot even imagine the cries he's going to scream when it happens. gently born (although slowly), and now this?

but in the end, my *goal* is to have that baby on the boob completely with seedy yellow stools by the end of next week.

sutt's tongue is completely attached by his frenulum-all the way to the tip, which makes the upside down heart when he cries :(

the dr asked me if he passed his hearing tests in the newborn nursery, and i answered yes, like a good little mama looking for no trouble ;)

at this point, i'm so incredibly relieved, and am feeling less and less frustrated and angered by the dr's/lc's refusal to LISTEN to me. my baby-my gut-my call, kwim?

i keep waiting for them to call me to harrass me over the weight check. cmon, call me!!

Did I read that wrong? Clipping one that severe and with sutures involved, and no pain relief? No sedative? I'd consider that dangerous overall, they will strap him down, yes, but in such a tender area he needs to be more "still". And the pain too. Why not with pain relief and/or sedative? If they can't use those in office, why not the hospital with that and no general?

Hey..

Elijah had this..and not one person noticed it until my MIL did when he was 5 days old. I could NOT figure out why he was having so many problems feeding and latching and worse, controlling the flow of milk...

I finally found a nurse practitioner to clip his tounge when he was 2 months old. He luckily managed to figure out a latch, but it was VERY painful for the 2 months..he had continuous gas because he couldn't control the flow of milk down his throat. I will be watching when this little one is born for the tongue tie and if I can't get anyone else to do it, I will. Basically all that the NP did was move his tongue aside with her finger and clip. No anesthetic of any kind..I put him right to the breast and the relief for both of us was immediate!

I'm so sorry it's been so tough for you guys..I remember how hysterical my baby would get when trying to feed..luckily once he latched he could stay on.

Hugs to you!

Originally posted by ~Denise~
Did I read that wrong? Clipping one that severe and with sutures involved, and no pain relief? No sedative? I'd consider that dangerous overall, they will strap him down, yes, but in such a tender area he needs to be more "still". And the pain too. Why not with pain relief and/or sedative? If they can't use those in office, why not the hospital with that and no general?

Yikes, no pain relief? I think you are at risk of him have an oral aversion if you do it without pain relief. Then more issues of bf'ing will follow. That is scary!!!

ETA- I almost bit my tongue off in a seizure along with dislocating and breaking my shoulder and an emergency c-sec an hour later. My tongue hurt worse than the c/s for weeks. (just a heads up on the pain).

Wow Kas! Rory was clipped in a dentists office. I just nursed him directly aftewards. Barely any blood and he was himself in minutes AND nursing dramatically changed in an instant. I'm so sorry you're having to go through this crap!

Oh, Kas, I am so sorry you had to go through that! WTF, it's YOUR CHOICE ... idiots!

Zachary had a short frenulum too and I can pretty much guarantee that this new baby will to b/c all 3 of the kids in DH's family had it. The only one who wasn't clipped as a child was DH and we REALLY want that done now.

DS's was done under GA when he had his surgery, but the Ped Surgeon said he'd do it in office sooner if we wanted. They were GREAT about it, but then again it was a specialist we were already seeing!

Thank goodness you found someone to help you! I am certain that you will do just fine with BFing now that this is all over. Nursing isn't always easy at first, but Sutton will learn how. Have faith in this like you had faith in your body!

Hugs!

P.S. There are sedatives that he could take, but that would prevent you from nursing for several hours. There MUST be a pain killer that he could take or be given topically (like orajel) for the pain.

Breastmilk will help with pain relief too.

General Anes. would mean about 5 mins under and 30 mins of recovery away from you then about an hour in the recovery nursery where he can eat and not throw up. He'd have to have an IV and have his BP checked several times, etc. DS didn't seem to have ANY issues with his tongue at all after this was done. But He was also on LOTS of drugs. If you wanna talk/hash out a plan, you can IM me or PM me. I might be able to help you come up with a plan to make it all less traumatic for him AND YOU. HUGS

OK, it sounds like clipping with no pain relief is standard. With my experience with my tongue it hurt like ****. How does this not hurt the babies?

Eric's step father remembers his being done - he was 4 or 5. He said the dr. told him to look at something, snipped and it was over and done with before he knew what was going on, with very little pain and very little blood.

Josh's was a little tied but not badly. We practiced sticking out his tongue lots and it stretched, so I was happy.

I've known lots of people to have it done, and I've NEVER heard of it being stitched. The mouth is the fastest healing place in the body, isn't it?

Hope the experience isn't too bad sweetie.

Wow, I never realized there were so many problems with tongue tied kiddos. Lauren was pretty severely tied (pretty little heart shaped tongue lol) and she was a perfect nurser. I'm going to continue to count my blessings with this kid!

Good luck tomorrow! Hope it all goes quickly and relatively painlessly for Sut!

j

I don't get why they are making an issue of it? My little neighbor, Gabby, had no trouble getting hers clipped for speech. She wasn't nursed - I think if anyone had sold her mama on it better, she would have tried, but it never occurred to her.
Gabby didn't even seem to notice that it happened, but boy did she have a speech explosion right after. I saw her right after they got home from the pediatrician's that day, and there was no sign of any discomfort from Gabby.

A friend's sister who was born in Mexico in the 70's had hers clipped as part of their standard medical procedure right after she was born. It was supposed to her her roll her rr's (very handy for a little American girl - though she actually is fluent in Spanish, so maybe it was a good thing). Apparently they clipped frenulums there like we circumcised in the 70's.

Originally posted by ~Denise~
Did I read that wrong? Clipping one that severe and with sutures involved, and no pain relief? No sedative? I'd consider that dangerous overall, they will strap him down, yes, but in such a tender area he needs to be more "still". And the pain too. Why not with pain relief and/or sedative? If they can't use those in office, why not the hospital with that and no general?

:ditto:

in office-with LOCAL anesthetic (as in lidocaine), but from what i understand, most who clip do so with nothing to numb the area or kill pain.

still nervous over the suturing part.

wish i had some clue as to where exactly to clip it, i'd do it myself and save a ton of stress and trauma for everyone :(

several people have pmed me with a do it yourself at home idea, but i lack the nerve, and desperately want all of this to end as smoothly and quickly as possible, and i fear that if i do it myself and something goes wrong, the guilt will kill me, kwim?

otoh, if the suturing part is really not necessary, and he's just doing it because he's set in his ways, i might never forgive myself for that either...man, motherhood is FULL of guilt.

yuck.

((HUGS))

BTDT. We didn't have our dd's clipped, and thankfully she was a good nurser and has since grown out of her short frenulem. It did cause some troubles in the beginning tho.

http://www.brianpalmerdds.com/frenum.htm

this site has a TON of info (but warning, some pics are cadavers, so beware)...seems sutton is having a FRENECTOMY, the more in depth clipping w/sutures, while the first less severe cases get a frenotomy...i think that's right-without re-reading again, lol

and then the most severe, a zplasty, whuch i'm grateful he does not have.

Dude, Sutton is really throwing you for a loop isn't he? Sounds like your supply is great (which you know). I'm betting you'll be nursing him comfortably by the end of the weekend :) The relief once he can latch should be intense...

That is a great site...I'm going to share it on our Leader's yahoo group here in GA...we have probs here getting docs to snip as well. I know more than one mama who has just done it themselves for lack of doctor support, but it sounds like Sut may need more than the do it yourself version...

blessings to you mama. this too shall pass.

Kas, you are right. I have seen quite a few snipped with no suturing, but only with a topical anesthesia that we have always used. We at our clinic never did it with no pain relief, even the super mild ones. But his is not one that most peds would do, or should do. I was just questionning the lack of pain relief, as while the quick clip hurts but they get over it fairly fast, suturing takes a bit of time and I was worried they'd be doing that with no pain relief. I am glad they are using a local. Topical I assume? If not, and he is injecting a bit of lido in the area, make sure they numb it with topical gel first. Even something like Orajel will help numb it, much like the dentist numbs the area topically before you get an injection for a cavity and such.
Good luck. (o: Hopefully he uses super soft sutures, I know it can irritate the area and cause discomfort otherwise. Sounds like he knows what he's doing. Let us know how it goes!

i had the heart shaped tongue just like your baby and my gabriel(his looks forked or heart shaped even when he is not crying)- when i was a baby the doctor just lifted and clipped. no sutures. no topical either. my mom said i cried less than a minute and was healed in 1 day. i was breastfed as a baby. maybe he doesn't need the sutures.

I really haven't read much, but thought I'd reply since Teagan just had a frenuloplasty (plus T&A). She had stitches and was quite sore for a few days. Please do not do this yourself at home. Your baby will be fine. I've never heard of not being medicated for this procedure.

hangin there kas... I am thinking of you every day through this... email me, ok? or you can call me if you wanna, I can email you my number... if you need an ear...:heart:

So funny this topic came up today. I took care of twins today at work- they were both born tongue tied pretty bad. the smaller twin was alot sicker at first, with one of her surgeries they went ahead and clipped her. The other twin was healthier at first and never had her fren. clipped. Well, the little one who was clipped is eating like a horse (for being barely 1600 grams) and will go home in a day or two. The other one who is still severly tongue tied is not eating well at all, maybe a bottle or two a day, the reast she has to be tube fed. I think it its the clipping that as made all the difference, although I suppose it could be a coincidence, are they clipping the other twin? Nope.

I'm so glad you found a doctor to do it Kas, I worry about the stitches though, even with the local anesthetic, he isn't going to like being held still with his mouth propped open like that. Can they give him a little sedative too? I hope it all goes well, maybe he won't have to have the stitches, hopefully the doctor doesn't just do them cuz he is stubborn.

It is going to be so nice once it is done. Hopefully that is the last of his little tricks.

Kas, you are an awesome woman for sticking w/ the bfing and holding to what is best for your baby. I wish more mamas had the strength and wisdom that you are showing. As for the jerk of a doc that wouldn't clip, I guess it is far better to withold the best food possible from your baby then to clip the tongue, right? (hope that sarcasm comes through).

Originally posted by lakshmi_mama
I don't understand why they wouldn't do it. They will circ a baby boy but not clip a frenulum? wtf?

I hope you find someone to do it asap.

hang in there!

i guess lack of education...and exposure to the issue...

i am so incredulous at this...hope it all goes smoothly from here on out.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}

Originally posted by kimi
I worry about the stitches though, even with the local anesthetic, he isn't going to like being held still with his mouth propped open like that. Can they give him a little sedative too?

I'm wondering the same thing. Perhaps you might consider calling the ENT in the am and seeing if you can pre-medicate little Sutton w/some tylenol...or something...it may just make him groggy enough (and also help w/the pain) to provide some ease.

Oh boy...I'm so sorry you're going through this. It's no fun, but thankfully you feel comfortable standing up for yourself and your child. :thumbsup:

With everything that you are enduring now, it seems as though Sutton KNEW that he would have a difficult time nursing and was using this time to grow out of his being tongue tied. I know that his is a bit more complicated than the simple tongue tie, but I think that it illustrates yet again the baby's wisdom as to when to be born. This will all be over for you soon Kas. HANG IN THERE!!

Thinking of you and baby Sutton and hoping all goes well.

:hug:

extemely Awesome She woman you are.and a great mama... I will be thinking of you and little Sutton. I pray that it goes quickly for you both and that you can get on with you baby moon..:big hug: :big hug:

Kas, I have a friend whose son is the same way... she didn't even try to bfeed because of it, and her ped told her the same thing. I told her to stand her ground and do what she thinks is right for the baby, and she did speak with her OB about it, who is going to get it taken care of for her.

Good luck.

Thinking of you mama!! Hope all goes well today.:heart:

Thinking about that baby boy of yours, and hoping everything works out wonderfully.

Amy