ok, first i must ask a very general question...what do you do to discipline your child? (say your almost 4 year old?)

The reason I ask this is because I am turning out to have an unruly rude almost 4 year old. She is not nice or polite. I am nice and try to always set a good example and do not know where this has come from. My mom says it is because she thinks she has "adult" prividledges. (She also had a lot of other things to say in our conversation this morning, uggh).

I wonder if part of the problem stems from the fact that I am not always around and she takes my word as the word, and anything else another adult says she tends to double check with me or just ignore or say NO.

Honestly I hate dealing with issues liek this (gives me a stomach ache, or maybe it is my mom giving me that, lol), she is ok for me most of the time but is rude when I am not around.

Sorry if this is choppy, I am trying to use my free minute while Iris is happy.

My mom says time out is the answer. But I wonder is it really? Does anyone use this? We did with CJ, but that was also a little before my ap days. Is this AP?

What do you do when your child rudley says to you "GET OUT OF MY WAY" instead of move please, or excuse me?

She also thinks that time out does not break a childs spirit, does it though? I remember my dealing with CJ and I really wonder on this issue.

She also mentioned taking away a favorite toy in order to obtain better behaviour. But it all seems so un predictable the way she was saying it. Her example was, if Audrey was speaking rudely, as the get oout of my way example and was holding a toy, her answer was to take away the toy for a while. But I said this doen't fit the crime, but hwat does fit the crime for speaking to adults rude and saying get out of my way?

She does not think we discipline if we do not do time out.

She loves Terri Brazelton...any opinions there?

She would just croak if she knew I was writing to you all "double checking" on her parenting advice before I end up with an unruly monster on my hands.

This has also coem about since her little sister has arrived, which I know may be a contributing factor but doesn't excuse her behaviour at all.

She is known for looking at people and saying
"Don't look at me."
"Don't talk to me."
"I dont' like you."
"Go away from me."
"Get out of my way."
NO.
Me: Time to go, HER, No way.

Ok Iris is crying, and I feel like my nerves are shot. I know this is a problem as Tony and I were discussing this yesterday. And I still have to try to get my teeth cleaned with all the kids today, oh waht fun it is to be a mom.

And I wonder if I was not working and life was more consistent for Audrey if this would make a difference in her behaviour?

Motherhood is tough...
Amy

First--a book recommendation--"easy to love, difficult to discipline". I really enjoyed this book. And she gives a week by week plan to help turn things around--very helpful.

Second--I would set a "no tolerance" policy on the rude behavior. If my children can't conduct themselves in a socially acceptable manner, they aren't allowed to interact socially with the rest of the family. They can sit in their room until they can be polite and respectful to others.

Your three year old sounds remarkably like MY three year old! LOL

I think it has a lot to do with them suddenly realizing that THEIR words have power! How liberating that must be! But we live in a world with other people and we can't just speak our mind every second, and they do need to learn that.

When my son yells "GET ME JUICE", I either say, "I don't listen to rudeness, try again," or "That is not the way we ask for something," or occasionally now I can just give him a blank look and he understands that his request needs to be phrased differently. This has been going on for probably 8 months or more, though, in the beginning, I really had to explain each and every time that "It's rude to order people to do things, you need to ask nicely," etc.

If he is having a real problem with being rude, I will sometimes say, "I can't take someone who is being rude to the park today...the other kids and mommies don't want to hear that. So if you can't be more polite, then we will not be going." I try to save that for days when I'm really at my wit's end with it (or pmsing) because a) he is even worse when he's angry, and not taking him to the park or whatever makes him very angry, and b) usually our outings are for me too, and I don't want to punish myself! Basically the "punishment" for being rude is that he doesn't get the normal response from me. He doesn't get the juice he's demanded, he doesn't get his show put on for him, whatever he's ordering me to do just gets ignored until he asks in another way.

I don't know that timeout for rude behavior is really relevant, you know? I mean, there are times that I will say "If you want to belch over and over, you can go in the playroom and shut the door and do that all you want, then come out when you're done, because I don't want to hear it," but I don't really consider that timeout. And there are also definitely times that *I* need a timeout from HIM...then it is "quiet mommy time" for a few minutes and I usually retreat to another room. Or sometimes I will say "I need you to go play in your playroom for a while." If he asks "why" I sometiems will say "so I don't yell at you." LOL Which is the truth. Sometimes I yell, I'm not perfect.

We went through the "don't look at me" phase...I remember my SIL going through it when she was older, like 6 or 7. I did tell him that it hurts people's feelings to be told "don't look at me" and that it is rude, and that it is my job to help him not to be rude...I think I told him that if I heard that we would leave wherever we were, but after once or twice of explaining that it is rude, he just stopped. Maybe he didn't realize it before, or maybe he was really sure that we'd leave the playdate/Nonni's house/whatever.

I am home with my children, nad my three year old has the same issues yours does, so I don't want to say that it has to do with you working...but on the other hand, I do know that mine act up a lot more when my husband works long hours (which he's been doing lately), so it could be a factor, I don't know. Maybe she is saving all her "good behavior" for her teacher/daycare worker/whomever is watching her and has to let out all of the "bad stuff" when you are around, you know? And that new baby stress definitely has peaked at different points at our house...he was fine utnil the baby was 5 or 6 months old and starting to be mobile, then had another rough patch when she was a year or so old, and walking and taking toys...now they just fight over everything half the time and hug and snuggle each other the other half of hte time...such is life with siblings I guess.

Good luck mama. I keep telling myself "this too shall pass" and I'm hoping I'm right! :)

Michelle

I try to use logical consequences as much as possible. In the example you mention, if one of my children rudely said "Get out of my way!", I would not move at all and say "As soon as you ask me nicely." Or if she skirted around me and ran off anyway, I would say to her "I did not appreciate your tone of voice. Next time I expect you'll be more polite." And that is an important point. You gotta EXPECT them to behave the way you want, and then if they don't then there must be a consequence of some sort (logical ones make the most sense, IMO). While taking a toy away or a time out may be effective in the short term, I am not sure how well they mold future behaviour.

The bossy demanding way of speaking sometimes pops up around here (especially with my oldest dd) and I simply won't give her what she's asking for (or listen to her if she's just trying to tell me something) until she changes her words and tone of voice.

My youngest dd just turned 4 and this isn't as much of an issue for her, but she has other disciplinary needs and I do try to address them with logical consequences...whatever they happen to be.

A book I really like is "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk". I found it to be very helpful for teaching you how to get the behavior you desire/expect out of your children.

Good luck!

DD was getting out of hand for awhile (when she was 4) and we realized we weren't being consistent with her. We sat her down and told her if she didn't behave, life wouldn't be as much fun..plain and simple. lol


If she was rude to us, she'd lose a toy. If we were out and she was rude, unruly or ran away from us, we would leave. It took a few screaming fits for her to realize it was much easier for her to behave. Once she figured out there were consequences and that she should let us know if shes bored/tired etc, it became much easier for her.

If shes sick, tired or hungry we do make allowances for cranky behaviour of course. :)

4 was a tough age for us because DD was trying to assert her independence a little more. I can't even count how many safety talks we had. "You must hold mommys hand when walking through parking lots, no exceptions. My job is to keep you safe and parking lots are dangerous" Thankfully she doesn't argue about it anymore.

5 is turning out to be wonderful. She understands so much more and the temper tantrums are down to a minimum now.

Edited to say: I'm not as mean as I sound.. ;) Anything else we tried with DD didn't work. She needed clear cut boundaries and consequences. Gentle reminders work now...which is great.

HTH!

What does your mom mean by she has "adult privilidges" by the way???

You are not going to get her to change her behavior overnight. Punishment is only effective as long as the threat of punishment exists. Continous positive reinforcement will get her to change, but it's not going to happen overnight. If she's doing something you like reinforce that, praise her for it. Example.. tell her you were happy with how she put her toys away when asked, but you don't like it when she speaks to you negatively. Focus on the good things she does. Eventually she'll just want the positive feedback and the negative behavior will go away.

There is nothing wrong with using time outs, if they are used properly. Time out is taking a child who is recieving positive reinforcement negative behavior and removing the positive reinforcement. Use a three step time out process. Give her the power to change her behavior. Removing her from the situation is fine, but explain to her that she will be allowed back into things when X stops.

Always follow through. If you "threaten" with something, then do it. I don't care how stupid it is. If you say something silly like "if you don't stop I'm going to scream" then by all mean SCREAM. Don't make up another threat, do what you said you were going to do.

As for taking the toy away, we used to do this with DS and now I'm rethinking that approach. If you are going to take it away, please make sure you let her know she will get it back if X happens. Don't just say I'm taking your toy away. In her eyes that would probably be viewed as stealing and how could you get mad later on if she takes a toy away from a sibling or friend b/c they are doing something she doesn't like.. ya know?

I'm sure alot of it is her wanting to spread her wings a little and exert some independence, so give her some power of her own. Give her choices, like a choice for clothes to wear, choice in snacks, little things that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Don't give her any say in major choices, but really what difference does it make if she wears a blue shirt or a red one? Or if she has grapes or carrots for snack.. ya know?

Good luck.. it is tough to be a mom sometimes... :)

I haven't had time to read the other responses but here's mine. :D

If one of my kids were rude like that, I'd get right down on her level, in her face, and explain that no one is allowed to speak that way in my home or around me and if that's the way she feels she needs to talk, then she could spend time alone in her room. I'd explain that I don't speak that way, Daddy doesn't speak that way and she shouldn't speak that way since it is very rude. I'd mention that there are nicer ways to say that such as "Excuse me, may I get through?" and that that response is respectful. As she is disrespectful, I'd explain a better way to have said something (or that it was a time to NOT say anything) and then send her to her room (or a time-out chair, or wherever you think it's appropriate) and ask her to come back to me when she can be kind.

I've dealt with this a little bit around here - even just recently found everyone was saying "move" when they needed to get through someplace and I've addressed it and we're working on it. Respect is a big thing for us and my kids are picking up on that.

One thing that I'd have to say to NOT do is to make it an issue of feelings on your part (you hurt Mommy's feelings when you say that). I know many experts say to do this but I don't want my kids to feel like they can hurt my feelings when they want to and this is really a matter of respect over hurting feelings. I did that with one daughter who then, whenever she was mad, she would say something a bit hurtful just to get me but finaly I let her know that it doesn't hurt my feelings but it IS disrespectful and there were consequences to that. It worked for us!

Good luck! Who said being a parent was easy??

Ann

Thank you all so much!

So you think time out isn't bad?

And if I am reading correctly, I have the book How to talk... but can you call this a form of discipline? I need to get this out and reread it now. I really want dh to read it as well.

Currently, dd shares our room and doesn't have a room. We are planning on making a makeshift bedroom for her this weekend when we move all our rooms to the basement, I hope this will give her aplace she can call her own that she can go to.

I am debating on quitting my job. It is going to take lots of financial cutting here and there and probably a consolodatio loan, but we think it will be worth it. Dh is supportive of that. My mom is the dcp when I work (currently 20 hours a week) and I am not so sure this is a good thing for our family. She causes me a lot of stress.

I really want to move so that dd has her own room also. I think this would help as our house is getting so small!! I don't know how much longer I can tolerate our small house, ykwim? But if staying here means that I can not work, it will be worth it.

Thank you all again. It is only Tuesday and I think this is a terrible week. Dh's truck broke down yesterday, or van needs new brakes and transmission fluid. And I have not been able to slow my life down since last friday and dont' know how much longer I can go being so busy. Everything is run, run, run. It doesn't help that sdd I have to take to school and pick up and it is a 20-25 minute drive both ways. Yick. I just so dont' want to go to work today (afternoon only). I have laundrey piled up to my ears and floors that need vacuumed/mopped, you know, pretty much everything.

Oh and the last 2 nights dd has wet her bed and she has not done that in a long time.

Thanks for listening to me ramble. I really appreciate all your support!

We use time outs.

In general though, I try to do the logical consequences as much as possible.. but there are times when we just need.. time out.

I've told her that sometimes Mommy needs them too, so it's not so much a punishment thing around here.. I've explained to her (and she understands) that sometimes when you're tired/cranky/frustrated/whatever, things are a little too hard to deal with and you might forget your manners or how to be nice .. and then you need to take a "time out" to get in control of your body (and spirit really, but she doesn't get that) again.. and that there's absolutely nothing wrong with taking a break from the situation. i've told her that until she's big enough/old enough to know when she needs a break, Mommy has to help her - and I either do that in the form of a time out or alone time in her room.

Four year olds are TOUGH. I like Brazelton too, but I agree that time out doesn't fit the crime. You may end up having a good ole show down with her at some point.

Like the get out of my way example. I'd get down at eye level and say "that's not the way we speak in our family, please try saying that another way". If she choses to continue the rudeness she gets a one way ticket into her room (that has no tv and other media to entertain her).

Four is a lot about asserting personal power and separating from mom. Have you read the Bates/Ames books "your four year old"?

I don't have a 4 year old, but I wanted to say in addition to all of this great advice, it's really important to teach her what you DO want her to do. (and some people alluded to that). Have her do roleplays of polite behavior. TAlk though ways that she can respond if someone is annoying her. We all get annoyed at times, she needs to learn how to handle it in an appropriate way. After explaining your expectations, you then can start expecting her to behave that way. So if she said "get out of my way!"... I would say "that wasn't the polite way to say it. Try again." If she refused, then I would probably do time out. I would try just standing there, but sometimes that could turn into a physical confrontation--what would you do if she tried to push her way through? So I'd watch carefully for any start of it, and if just waiting didn't work, then I would try time out-- "take a break until you are ready to ask politely", for example.

I don't think she sounds all that atypical. And if your mom is causing you stress, it sounds like a good plan to think about quitting, if you can make it. (((hugs)))

We have been dealing with politness/ rudeness issue in our home as well. I started doing something that is working well.
I took two small canning jars and out a smiley face on one and a sad face on another.
I filled the sad jar up with dry beans and told the boys and my dh it was full because we were a rude family (this is true- we are all way too rude) and that Mr. Rude and Mr. polite were going to help remind us that we should be polite. Everytime one of us says please, thank you, your welcome, yes mama, or no sir then we move a bean to the happy faced jar.
When someone is rude ( belching without saying excuse me, spitting on people, calling names, etc.) then we move a bean from the happy jar into the sad jar.

We are all keeping each other in check and ds is having a blast reminding us to say thank you. Dh lost us a bean last night for "potty humor", Marcus was NOT happy with him lol.

Btw, I had the boys make the list of what was polite and what was rude. they amazed me with what they knew to be rude. For instance, I about died when Marcus told me that calling people a caca head was rude. LOL, I don't even think he knows what that is.

does anyone have a copy of the book everyone keeps mentioning above that they'd like to trade or sell? We have issues here as well.