Some of you remember that I sometimes sell bendy dolls here. I asked a fellow wahm a few months ago if she thought it was legal for me to sell them .. since they were not my own creation but taken from instructions from the book Felt Weefolk. She believed that it would be legal as long as I did not use the patterns in the book for clothing the dolls. Those patterns do not fit my bendies so I created my own. However.. my bendies do look very much the same as the ones in the book.

I have recently been informed that the bendy instructions are copywrited and that I can not sell the dolls. I do not know if this is true but I need to make certain before I throw in the towel. I don't understand how instructions to a craft can be copywrited. I can't copyright my lanterns. I know that other wahms sell bendies on their websites .. but these bendies are not as detailed as the ones I make so do not look so much like the bendies from Felt Weefolk.

Can someone clue me in? I don't want to do anything illegal.
Thanks

edited for spelling duh

Camie's dh knows a TON about copyright issues. Hopefully she'll see this thread. Or, go do a search at Mama Drama - seriously. There was a great thread there about copyright issues and it had a lot of info with links.

(edited cause I can't type this morning)

I don't know a whole lot about copyrights, but I *think* if there's a copyright on the instructions, it's limited to the instructions. So, you couldn't have a website and sell thier instructions claiming them as your own. Does that make any sense?

Again, I'm no expert so I could be way off.

Thank you Michelle and Sarah.

The book Felt Weefolk states that the clothing patterns can be copied for home use only. And of course the book has a copywrite on it's contents so one can not reproduce it in any form. But it states nothing about actually using the instructions to create dolls for sell. It seems that the dolls themselves are not copyrighted.. But I still want to know for certain. We all know what happens when we ASSume? lol

~Sherrie

Why don't you just contact the author and ask what you are and are not allowed to do. That's always the safest route to go. If they say yes, you have a record of their permission. At worst, they say no and thank you for your forethought in asking (which is always appreciated).

"patterns can be copied for home use only" - this is a bit ambiguous and I would ask for clarification. Whether it means the PATTERN cannot be copied and distributed or whether it means the pattern can only be USED for personal dolls. That is, whether they are referring here to
A> copyright on the presentation of the pattern
B> patent on the design of the doll
(doubtful if these types of dolls have been produced for decades; common general knowledge. i.e. You can't patent beeswax candles.)

There's a huge difference. If it's the design, ask them for the patent number so you can verify it (USPTO.gov) I would think if they did have a patent, they would state it.

You can't copyright an actual item - ie the doll itself. Only the pattern and instructions. You can patent the doll, as Jo stated.

I would think if you are not using their pattern or instructions, you are fine to sell your bendy dolls.

She sells her dolls from her site and also has doll kits that she sells...

so, perhaps, if your dolls look that much like hers, you could make some changes to your dolls so as to not be doing almost identical dolls?

Thanks so much for all the info. I was told by someone this morning that they contacted her after getting the book and asked about reproducing her dolls. The author said that they are only for home use, and that she will issue a special liscence for a one time only charity event. I'm not reading this info in the book though there are a few statements regarding copyrights that have me confused about their meaning. If someone here has the book could you take a peek and see if you are understanding it differently?

I have spent an hour researching copyrights that belong to her. She has books copyrighted.. that's all I can find. The book Felt Wee Folk contains no mention of the dolls having a patent.

Mamabear ~ My dolls are created using instructions identical to hers. But there are also sites on-line that offer these instructions..not written by her.

I'm not quite sure how to make them "different" . I don't think that how I paint their faces could be considered "coping" her work but I think that this one detail makes our dolls look so similar. I did get my ideas for embroidery work on their clothes from the book.. another detail that makes mine look so much like hers.

I have done some research on copyrighting crafts.. and it is so broad. Some original handmade crafts can in fact have a copywrite..but I can't find any info regarding whether these bendy dolls fall into that category.

I have a bunch of these dolls that I was planning to sell.. so now I just don't know what to do. blah!

bumping for more info.

To be honest, I'd just call the US copyright office:

http://www.copyright.gov/

(202) 707-5959

Or try:

Public Information Office: (202) 707-3000

Information specialists are on duty to answer questions by phone from 8:30 a.m. to 5 p.m., eastern time, Monday-Friday, except federal holidays. Recorded information is also available.

From what I understand the actual patterns are copywrited, but what you create from them is not. But you can call and ask, I'm sure they are open.

hth!

Don't know if you saw it already, but here's the thread at MD (am I going to get into trouble for linking? Really I am trying to be helpful!!):
LINK (http://mama-drama.com/mdforum/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=11851&hl=copyright&)

And I won't cut and paste... *lol* But scroll down and watch for posts from ButterCup - that's Camie and her DH and seriously he makes some amazing points.

HTH! :D

thanks nutmeg.. I will call in just a minute.. that should put my mind to rest about it.

snowflake. I tried searching at md but didn't know what forum to search in and couldn't figure out how to do a search in all forums. I'll check the link now. thank you for taking the time to provide it for me.

Just wondering what you found out from the office...:)

I had the same question a couple of months back about patterns so I contact the copywrite office in Washington, DC. This is the e-mail I received from them.



-----Original Message-----
From: Copyright Information [mailto:copyinfo@loc.gov]
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 2:53 PM
To: wendy@homes.com
Subject: Re: general copyright buying a pattern


Copyright in a pattern normally pertains to the pattern itself, not to the object that you construct from the pattern. If the pattern, however, includes original artwork that would be incorporated into the work you make, then you may need permission to use it commercially. An example of that would be a needlework pattern depicting original artwork. An example of the opposite would be a dress pattern: the dress you make from the pattern is not subject to copyright protection.

**********************************
Copyright Office
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave SE
Washington DC 20559
(202) 707-3000
www.copyright.gov


This tells me that if the item is not LICENSED, then you are allowed to make the item and sell it for profit.


Wendy:)

Thank you Wendy for including the email from the copyright office.

Meg.. They were closed when I called yesterday..I'm calling them now.

What I learned:

Basically I can legally make and sell the bendy dolls. The lady I spoke with used "teddy bears" as an example. She said that they receive thousands of registrations each year for teddy bear copyrights..and most of them are created in much the same fashion..if not exactly. You can not copyright the process/instuctions of making a teddy bear.. same thing with the bendy dolls. The instructions of the wire frame construction can't be copyrighted. The embellishments added are up to the crafter. In order for it to be illegal someone would have to take a person's original craft and intentionally duplicate it *exactly* and then sell it. But it's a broad area in regards to dolls/teddy bears. She said I would need to speak to an attorney for more specifics but that basically I was not doing anything illegal.

She also said that many people will send letters .. even from attorneys.. asking others to refrain from selling crafts that closely resemble their own. She said that this was mainly an attempt to intimidate and eliminate competition. She said something about feeling sorry for the courts if people actually tried to push the issue further than just a letter of warning.

I was also wondering about a possible patent being on the bendy fairies and she said that this would not be possible. Patents are only given for inventions... and I assume from what I heard today that the bendy doll frame would not fall under inventions.

:)

Thanks again for everyone's help!

~Sherrie

I know this is an old thread, but I found it when looking for hte other copyright thread, LOL

In order for it to be illegal someone would have to take a person's original craft and intentionally duplicate it *exactly* and then sell it.

wouldn't using the pattern to make something duplicate their craft *exactly*?

I know this is an old thread, but I found it when looking for hte other copyright thread, LOL

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In order for it to be illegal someone would have to take a person's original craft and intentionally duplicate it *exactly* and then sell it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



wouldn't using the pattern to make something duplicate their craft *exactly*?


Well not for me lol. I bought the honeyboy pattern and tried to duplicate an aio "exactly" and I asure you it wasn't "exact" .. but that's me :) My method of making bendy dolls is exactly the same as the method outlined in Felt Wee Folk.. but I got my original instructions for creating them from an on-line message board..not from the book. There aren't a lot of ways of constructing a wire frame body for a 3.5 inch doll. Even though my construction is the same if not identical to Sally Mavor's. .. my dolls will not fit Sally Mavor's patterns for clothing. I have had to create my own patterns for clothing since my dolls are a tad bigger... so clearly my dolls are *not* "exact".

The pattern for making bendy dolls is NOT copyrighted. It can not be copyrighted. If someone had a copyright on a diaper pattern for example and someone bought that pattern and used it to duplicate an exact replica and then sold it ~ I suppose this would be illegal (there are still debates about this as well) I have called the copyright office twice since I created this thread to try to get a better understanding... so that I could continue, in good conscience, to produce and sell my bendy dolls. I have not contacted a copyright attorney nor do I plan to since I feel confident that I am crossing no legal or ethical boundaries. ( I could expand in depth on the issue of ethics in this area but really don't have the time at the moment) And if the copyright law changes to include stricter guidelines on handmade crafts thus preventing me from producing such a close likeness to the Wee Folk dolls then I will just stop selling them.. no real loss.

In my case the bendy dolls are very similar to my lanterns that I make and sell. I didn't invent the concept of crafting a candleholder out of wire and jars. I can't copyright my craft. Anyone can make a wire and glass lantern "identical" to mine and sell it. It won't be illegal. If I create a "pattern" that can be used to create an identical lantern and someone uses it and then sells their creation... It is not illegal because my pattern was not copyrighted. There are people who buy my lanterns at the antique store in the city where I wholesale them and they attempt to copy them to resell. I know this because several women have shared this information with the shop owner. There is a lady at a flea market in the city that now has a small booth where she sells duplicates of my creations.. her own craft. She copies my work to the "t".. but yet they look different. Her beads are different and her wire is not nearly as smooth as mine. Besides.. making them isn't easy. It takes a lot of practice to manipulate the wire perfectly. If anyone can master it then they've earned the right to sell it imo. Just speaking of my candleholders of course :)

Copyright in a pattern normally pertains to the pattern itself, not to the object that you construct from the pattern. If the pattern, however, includes original artwork that would be incorporated into the work you make, then you may need permission to use it commercially. An example of that would be a needlework pattern depicting original artwork. An example of the opposite would be a dress pattern: the dress you make from the pattern is not subject to copyright protection.

Okay, completely unrelated to bendy dolls, rofl, I have a question.

If this is the "theory" behind the patterns...what's the difference in that and say, a Simplicity dress pattern? If I'm not selling the pattern, why can't I sell a dress that I made FROM the pattern? KWIM?

Also, I seem to recall once reading that because I *couldn't* legally make many outfits from one pattern and sell them for profit, I *could* but a seperate pattern for each item I am making, say I'm using pattern number 1234, and want to make 5 outfits to sell, I would have to buy 5 copies of pattern # 1234...is this accurate?

Tuesday. I am not sure of the legal aspects of selling articles of clothing made from a pattern. If you are a member of md you should check out the link that someone posted in a previous reply. I believe it discusses this particular topic in much more depth.

~Sherrie

Originally posted by Tuesday


Okay, completely unrelated to bendy dolls, rofl, I have a question.

If this is the "theory" behind the patterns...what's the difference in that and say, a Simplicity dress pattern? If I'm not selling the pattern, why can't I sell a dress that I made FROM the pattern? KWIM?


Tuesday, the issue/question you outline above is the EXACT issue in which Wendy/MyEmilyMarie is referring to in her post regarding her call to the patent office.

I had the same question a couple of months back about patterns so I contact the copywrite office in Washington, DC. This is the e-mail I received from them.



-----Original Message-----
From: Copyright Information [mailto:copyinfo@loc.gov]
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 2:53 PM
To: wendy@homes.com
Subject: Re: general copyright buying a pattern


Copyright in a pattern normally pertains to the pattern itself, not to the object that you construct from the pattern. If the pattern, however, includes original artwork that would be incorporated into the work you make, then you may need permission to use it commercially. An example of that would be a needlework pattern depicting original artwork. An example of the opposite would be a dress pattern: the dress you make from the pattern is not subject to copyright protection.

**********************************
Copyright Office
Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave SE
Washington DC 20559
(202) 707-3000
www.copyright.gov


This tells me that if the item is not LICENSED, then you are allowed to make the item and sell it for profit.

Originally posted by Pixie's~Mama
Tuesday, the issue/question you outline above is the EXACT issue in which Wendy/MyEmilyMarie is referring to in her post regarding her call to the patent office.

ROFLMAO....durrrhheeeeee.....Why on earth did I think that was pertaining only to Bendy Dolls?? ROFL Some reading comprehension on my part might be nice, eh? ROFL <snort>:rolleyes:

Okay, I just called the copyright office AGAIN, LOL, and the woman I spoke with said that this is one of the grey areas that there isn't a real definitive answer to, but that prior legal testing (lawsuits) have shown that in the case of a pattern, the item made from the pattern is considered a derivative work and is thus protected by the coyright, and therefore can't be made for sale without express consent of the copyright holder. She also said if I called back and got osmeone else at the office, I'd probably get a different answer, LOL, so that was real helpful :rolleyes:


If I create a "pattern" that can be used to create an identical lantern and someone uses it and then sells their creation... It is not illegal because my pattern was not copyrighted.

Actually, it is copyrighted the moment you write it, whether or not you file for copyright. The Berne Convention allows for this. It used to be that you had to file and all, but now works are protected immediately.

Originally posted by littleturtle
She also said if I called back and got osmeone else at the office, I'd probably get a different answer, LOL, so that was real helpful :rolleyes:

Okay, so being frank here, who thinks Simplicity or McCalls would bust a mom who makes an outfit from one of thier patterns? Honestly?

BTW, I'm not saying I do or do not condone it, I'm just asking a hypothetical LOLOL. And who's to say I don't come up with an outfit that looks JUST LIKE a simplicity one? How can they "prove" I used thier pattern? KWIM? Are Simplicity and McCall's even Licensed? LOLOL

Honestly, I don't think simplicty or mccalls will *bust* a wahm for using thier patterns. However, that doens't make it *right*, KWIM? I try to do the moral thing, whether or not I can get away with not doing it.

And to be honest, my concern in this issue is not so much simplicity or mcCalls, but it's the wahms like me, fern and faeire, wooly wonders, and cuddlebuns (and arasmama, who probably isn't going to publish her pattenrs because of these issues) that I'm concerned about. it definitely hurts those of us who make our living from the patterns (both publishing them and make items for sale from them) when someone else profits from the pattern, yk?

And for *proving* you used their pattern, again, I think it would be difficult but it can be done. If the measurements are exactly the same,e tc, then it's pretty obvious. For example, with my soakers, I use very distinct shaping in the legs, and also have very specific measurements that aren't the same as anyone elses, so if I were to suspect that someone was using my pattern for their soakers for sale, I can easily look at the soaker and pull out my tape measure and know if it's from my pattern.

Originally posted by littleturtle
Honestly, I don't think simplicty or mccalls will *bust* a wahm for using thier patterns. However, that doens't make it *right*, KWIM? I try to do the moral thing, whether or not I can get away with not doing it.
I smell what you're cookin' ;) And agree...I'm just asking from a curious POV. None of this really pertains to me, since I focus mainly on *my* own diaper bag patterns LOL...I *do* however occassionally make outfits from patterns and sell them.


Okay, another question now. (Again, out of curiosity). You (and other WAHM's) Profit off of YOUR diaper, some, YOUR (generic) diaper and YOUR pattern... Simplicity only profits off of THIER pattern, not the end product of thier design, does that make sense?? I'm not sure how to explain what I'm "thinking"...In, that perspective...would it be "dishonest" to buy a pattern for each outfit you make? for instance, I want to use pattern 1234, and I get them on sale at JoAnne's for 1.99 on sale, and buy 5 of them and make 5 of the outifts and sell them...would that bother your conscience (again, your is generic).
[QUOTE]And for *proving* you used their pattern, again, I think it would be difficult but it can be done. If the measurements are exactly the same,e tc, then it's pretty obvious. For example, with my soakers, I use very distinct shaping in the legs, and also have very specific measurements that aren't the same as anyone elses, so if I were to suspect that someone was using my pattern for their soakers for sale, I can easily look at the soaker and pull out my tape measure and know if it's from my pattern.

Gotcha'. Frankly, I would be a paranoid nervous wreck if I thought I was doing something illegally, lolol...or if I was "stealing" someone else's design, it just would feel "ick" lol

Originally posted by Tuesday
I *do* however occassionally make outfits from patterns and sell them.


Gotcha'. Frankly, I would be a paranoid nervous wreck if I thought I was doing something illegally, lolol...or if I was "stealing" someone else's design, it just would feel "ick" lol

Why oh why does everyone think that is it so vastly different to use Simplicity patterns, and would never *dream* of using a WAHM pattern? It is the same thing, only with the WAHM, there is a face/familiarity to go with the pattern. Using a big companies pattern, without permission, is no different, I guess people just see it as victimless.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I create a "pattern" that can be used to create an identical lantern and someone uses it and then sells their creation... It is not illegal because my pattern was not copyrighted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Actually, it is copyrighted the moment you write it, whether or not you file for copyright. The Berne Convention allows for this. It used to be that you had to file and all, but now works are protected immediately.


No. "A work is copyrighted immediately as long as it is an original" This is a quote from the copyright office. I just called the copyright office for the third time. I have spoken to a different person each call and there have been no contradictions. If I create a pattern or instructions for my lanterns they are not copyrighted because they would not be an original pattern for such a craft. The area of crafts is very broad. It is not easy to copyright a craft. I only asked about my lanterns and the bendy dolls. I didn't invent a 3.5 inch wire frame doll.. neither did Sally Mavor. I didn't invent candleholders created from glassware and 16 gauge raw steel wire. These 2 crafts are created using a method which can not be copyrighted. You can't copyright a general method or a method pertaining to a general craft. The reason that so many teddy bear copyrights come in each year is because each copyright holder claims their work *is* an original because it is somewhat different that all the others. Their original teddy bear is copyrighted... but the method inwhich they create the bear is not.. unless it is done so in a way different from how all the other teddy bears are created...making it an "original pattern".

If I sat down today and created an original "pattern" for a sling... something unlike any other sling design ... then my original work would be immediately copyrighted. This is not the case with the bendy dolls or my lanterns. Sally Mavor has no copyright on her bendy dolls... just the clothing patterns. I assume that if she could have legally placed a copyright on her dolls then she would have.

Originally posted by mommy2maya
Why oh why does everyone think that is it so vastly different to use Simplicity patterns, and would never *dream* of using a WAHM pattern? It is the same thing, only with the WAHM, there is a face/familiarity to go with the pattern. Using a big companies pattern, without permission, is no different, I guess people just see it as victimless.

actually, that's not what I was implying.

My question (one of my many) was, that, for instance, momma A has a diaper that she designed...doesn't sell a pattern for, just her own original design concept. Of course, she would lose money *IF* someone "stole" her design and made diapers using her pattern and pulled business from momma A. I'm not talking about an actual cut out and pin to fabric "pattern", I'm talking about a design. Simplicity, OTOH, doesn't "profit" from selling dresses made of thier own design...if I make a dress using thier patterns (assuming I buy a different pattern for each dress made...which I do, because I thought this was the legal thing to do) and sell the dress, they are not losing a "profit" because I am selling a finished product, they are getting thier fair share for each pattern I purchase...kwim?

I'm not condoning "stealing" from a nameless, faceless person and protecting a WAHM, I'm saying that *I* thought it was within legal rights to use a different pattern for each dress and sell them BECAUSE I am not selling thier "design", I am selling a product...does that make sense or no?

Originally posted by Tuesday
actually, that's not what I was implying.


BTW, Just wanted to clarify that this was NOT meant to sound as snide as it "looks" ROFLMAO.

I went back and read and though "eek", lol.;) :p