Anything else?
I know what it is not...
It is not a foremilk/hindmilk imbalance. I've taken all the possible steps to corrcet it if that was it and it is not.
I do not believe it is Overactive Letdown Reflex.
It is not an allergy to milk in my diet. She is on milk based formula and that actually gets rid of the diarrhea.
No broccoli or cabbage or the other regular, irritating stuff.

Had her on formula the last two days. Her diarrhea completely clears up. As does the crying. However, if I nurse she gets gassy. Hylands helps with the gas. However, this diarrhea coincides with nursing perfectly.

I really thought/think it has to do with the soynuts that were in the trail mix that I've been snacking on. This occurred to me last Sunday. So I stopped. I fed her formula all this last week with just breastmilk at night (so she'd continue to take the breast and so I wouldn't have to get up, lol.) I have pumped and dumped during the day.

As of yesterday afternoon I put her back on the breast 100%. What does she have today again? Horrible diarrhea.

Am I at the point where I just have to say I quit? Dh is very pro breastfeeding, however, his opinion is that it isn't worth her being in pain, crying all the time, and having diarrhea just so I can nurse. I'll be honest, I'm not so sure either. I was always of the opinion that if you can, you should and that I wouldn't ever again give my kids formula. But this has me over a barrell. Maybe it's just God's way of teaching me a little humility? ;)

From what I understand anything you are sensitive to can take from 48 hours to six weeks to leave your system.

Any thoughts?

When you say diahrea, what are you seeing? Is she maybe not getting a good latch and swallowing air making her gassy?

Is the poop smelly, or does it have a sweet smell to it? What color? Most breastfed babies have a yellow seedy poop - but mine who I needed to work on foremilk hindmilk imbalance had greenish, foul smelling, sometimes frothy poop. Breastmilk is a natural laxitive, so babies do go a LOT, usually.

You may know all of this, I just wanted to make sure you know... kwim?

bf bf bf bf bf bf bf bf bf.

that's all the input i have, sorry.

Can you get her in to see a Naturopath? I see you are in So CA... there is a really good place in Solana Beach called Acacia Health Center. You could even call them and ask for a referral to someone in your area. I am positive a naturopath would be able to figure out the problem and help you. I hope you find a solution. ((hugs))

We've just moved to Iowa from SoCal.

This is actually our fifth child. I've supplied milk for all of them.
Briana -2.5 months weaned to poor bfing education
Christian - weaned child led at 14 months
Hannah - pumped for the NICU
Elizabeth - weaned at 19 months for a high risk pregnancy

I'm very aware of normal bowel movements. ;) She had totally normal bowel movements for the first month of her life.

This was dark green water essentially. Then we put her on formula to hopefully give the soy time to get out of my system? Bowel movements went back to normal. Began to nurse her full time again yesterday. Diarrhea - it is yellow/green thin gravy consistency.

MamaMiah - I totally understand what you're saying. That's my inclination too. However, being realistic - I have to figure out a way to get her out of pain, fix the diarrhea. She has a hideous red bottom just from today's battle with diarrhea. I can't just continue to breastfeed and choose to be unconscious of her pain levels and health. I realize that breastmilk is unquestionably better than formula by a LOOOONG shot. (I'm one of those nuts who put the Militant Breastfeeding Cult icon on my family website.) However I tell you I'm feeling pretty darn cruel for insisting on nursing for her own good when she's crying, gassy, and hurting and the truth is that the only person benefiting from breastfeeding for the last three weeks is me. It feels pretty selfish.

So, I guess I should be more specific. I NEED HELP!!!! I've spoken to La Leche League and tried everything they've suggested. I see her pediatrician on Wednesday morning and maybe she'll have some idea??? Has anyone BTDT on this one that has some suggestions? I keep thinking if I stick it out it will get fixed... but three weeks now this has been going on and I really am starting to wonder. Formula, happy baby - breastmilk, crying screaming baby. I'm so frustrated.

Could it be an allergy to something else besides milk that you are eating? Wheat, soy, citrus, chocolate?

It would probably be worth it to do a total elmination diet for a month to see if if helps. I actually have a guide about how to do it, and what to eat and what not to eat if you are interested. I could fax it to you or mail a copy.

Just so you know, I am the world's worst dieter, and it has taken me almost a year to get up the courage to do an elimination diet of wheat and dairy with my son to see if it helps with his congestion. We are starting Monday. I just didn't want you to think I was tossing it out there as some really easy thing that you could do. I find it incredibly difficult to so drastically modify our diet and still come up with things to eat every day. But if it actually solved the problem, it would be so worth it.

How is her weight gain? Muscle tone? How old is she?

I honestly have no great advice for you, but after reading your post I wondered about these things. What you are going through sounds a bit like my Lea did in the early months, however, she wasn't gaining weight or meeting developmental milestones on time, and I could tell she was swallowing alot of air when she was nursing because I could hear her "clicking".

((HUGS)) mama. I understand your frusteration.

droolbucket,

If you don't mind my asking a couple of questions.

Of the stuff you've read about breastfeeding and diet having to do with sensitivities - did you run across anything where the baby was okay with what was in the diet, but then *not* okay? For example - I *do* like chocolate. However, she hasn't shown any sensitivity to it previously. DH comes home with chocolate at least twice a week and now he is SoCal and I'm in Iowa (waiting for him!) and my chocolate consumption has cut down significantly - only two candybars in three weeks!! However, can kids be okay with something and then just all of a sudden be sensitive to it? Oh, and I know it's not milk because she can drink a milk based formula just fine.

Second question, have you come across anything that would give you some indication of how long these things can affect your milk?

well--dark green diarrhea still sounds like OALD or FM-HM imbalance. Just because you have taken all the steps to correct it, does not mean that it has been corrected. Mine NEVER corrected itself...and I know of tons of moms whose never got fixed either....just throwing out that possibility.

As for how long things stay in your milk...I have always heard to give yourself a good 2 weeks after quitting something for it to be out of your system totally.

Also--with all the switching around, you may be giving her stomach more than she can handle, KWIM?? Children can develop a "secondary" allergy which is when their gastrointestinal system gets too upset....and then EVERYTHING will cause those kinds of problems....

Also--is the diarrhea really smelly? That also sounds very much like rotavirus! The red bum from acidic poop etc......

I agree with everything Jessica said. It sounds TOTALLY dietary on your part. I would cut EVERYTHING out, eliminate EVERYTHING. Start a basic diet of protein and low gas veggies. I didn't see if you were vegetarian or not, but if not i'd start ASAP and eat some chicken, beef or pork, cooked with basic spices (garlic, salt and pepper). Maybe a little bit of pasta/rice with whatever sauces you love. And basic veggies, like green beans, broccoli/carrots mixed, spinach, corn, etc...COMPLETELY cut the dairy. COMPLETELY. After about 2 weeks of no dairy, then start adding it back in, and see if there's any change. No milk, cheese, butter, etc...I know it sounds yucky to start this way but its worth it i think. AND continue to try to "correct" the foremilk/hindmilk imbalance. And HONESTLY i know you are trying to help her pain, but while you are switching her back and forth between breast and bottle, it could be too much for her tummy to handle.

The naturopath is also a great idea, that might be worth looking into. And in my past experience, kids can be fine with one thing for a few days, you cut it out and go back to it and they are sensitive or allergic to it. Just a thought........
Good luck, i hope you can figure out what's going on!!!!

How did you know you had HM/FM imbalance? Originally this is what I thought it was. I've only ever nursed on one side per feeding and let her nurse as long as she wanted. However, I figured I caused it by nursing on demand (OFTEN!) and letting her snack when she wanted so I made too much milk. So, I had a huge amount of milk. I cut it down by lengthening her time between feedings and only allowing her one breast until it felt quite empty. I know she was getting more than enough time per breast. For a couple of days I was only giving her one breast (the same one for two days) and pumping on the other side just to relieve engorgement. I can say I'm certain it reduced my milk supply. However, does that not fix the HM/FM imbalance?

Secondly, *if* this is indeed what it is, will it reoccur with another child? The idea of formula feeding from here on out is really unattractive.

Also, I should add - a friend and I were talking this last hour and we've ruled out soy as well. Apparently the formula she's been taking has soy in it. So that can't be it. I'm down to peanuts really being the only decent possibility. I also ate them for the first month of her life, but perhaps she's become sensitive????

It can't be a virus or a tummy "something"... it absolutely, completely clears up when she's on formula for 1/2 a day and reoccurs after being nursed for 1/2 -1 day. Symptoms are: EXTREME gassiness, green diarrhea - true diarrhea, not loose bf bm., and extreme crabbiness. She can fall asleep if her legs are tucked up into her tummy but will wake suddenly and pull in her legs. This *does* go away with formula.

She is gaining beautifully. She has lots of wet diapers, her soft spot isn't sunken, she has good skin color and good muscle tone. As a matter of fact, she rolled over for the first time just the other night!!!

Originally posted by snowymtnmama
I agree with everything Jessica said. It sounds TOTALLY dietary on your part. I would cut EVERYTHING out, eliminate EVERYTHING. Start a basic diet of protein and low gas veggies. I didn't see if you were vegetarian or not, but if not i'd start ASAP and eat some chicken, beef or pork, cooked with basic spices (garlic, salt and pepper). Maybe a little bit of pasta/rice with whatever sauces you love. And basic veggies, like green beans, broccoli/carrots mixed, spinach, corn, etc...COMPLETELY cut the dairy. COMPLETELY. After about 2 weeks of no dairy, then start adding it back in, and see if there's any change. No milk, cheese, butter, etc...I know it sounds yucky to start this way but its worth it i think. AND continue to try to "correct" the foremilk/hindmilk imbalance. And HONESTLY i know you are trying to help her pain, but while you are switching her back and forth between breast and bottle, it could be too much for her tummy to handle.

The naturopath is also a great idea, that might be worth looking into. And in my past experience, kids can be fine with one thing for a few days, you cut it out and go back to it and they are sensitive or allergic to it. Just a thought........
Good luck, i hope you can figure out what's going on!!!!

Okay - questions. :)
I agree it just *has* to be dietary. However, could it really be dairy if she can tolerate a milk based formula? I really wouldn't think so. She spent this last week almost entirely on formula and her diarrhea cleared up. Gave her breastmilk starting yesterday afternoon and it's baaaaack.

Also, while I'm doing the elimination do I continue to breastfeed? What about pain management for her?

Jessica,

Could you please relate your story?

Originally posted by BlsdMama
How did you know you had HM/FM imbalance? Originally this is what I thought it was. I've only ever nursed on one side per feeding and let her nurse as long as she wanted. However, I figured I caused it by nursing on demand (OFTEN!) and letting her snack when she wanted so I made too much milk. So, I had a huge amount of milk. I cut it down by lengthening her time between feedings and only allowing her one breast until it felt quite empty. I know she was getting more than enough time per breast. For a couple of days I was only giving her one breast (the same one for two days) and pumping on the other side just to relieve engorgement. I can say I'm certain it reduced my milk supply. However, does that not fix the HM/FM imbalance?
First off, if you are lengthening your time in between feedings, that could cause some problems as well....because your milk just builds up until you are engorged...then when you pump to relieve it, it is still telling your body to continue making that much milk....so you really aren't reducing your supply, just reducing the symptoms that you are noticing....only nursing on one side at a time is a solution to the problem, but it is not guaranteed to work.

Secondly, *if* this is indeed what it is, will it reoccur with another child? The idea of formula feeding from here on out is really unattractive.
maybe, maybe not. some people have it every child...some only have it with one. I think that the more you nurse and stay on a demand schedule, the better chance you have of not having the problems.

Also, I should add - a friend and I were talking this last hour and we've ruled out soy as well. Apparently the formula she's been taking has soy in it. So that can't be it. I'm down to peanuts really being the only decent possibility. I also ate them for the first month of her life, but perhaps she's become sensitive????
so is she on soy or dairy formula? there is not a formula that is both dairy and soy that I know of--and I have formula fed 5 kids!

It can't be a virus or a tummy "something"... it absolutely, completely clears up when she's on formula for 1/2 a day and reoccurs after being nursed for 1/2 -1 day. Symptoms are: EXTREME gassiness, green diarrhea - true diarrhea, not loose bf bm., and extreme crabbiness. She can fall asleep if her legs are tucked up into her tummy but will wake suddenly and pull in her legs. This *does* go away with formula.
yes, it can still be a tummy problem. especially where you keep switching her so often.....with going back and forth between breastmilk and formula....you seriously screw up the digestive system. they are sooo different in composition...and if you have a child that may have a sensitive tummy anyway, then going back and forth as often as you are will cause tons of problems.

How did you know you had FM/HM imbalance


well, I know I posted a link before that had tons of signs of OALD and FM/HM imbalance...but Lexie started out ok...seemed to do ok with my milk...and then at around 2-4 weeks started having difficulty with stools--they were green, they were diarrhea, sometimes they were harder to pass, but they were still liquidy. I tried eliminating dairy, did not help.I had been nursing on one side at a time from the beginning, so that was not an option for helping. I had the forceful letdown, the spraying, the vomitting, the gas etc etc. I was told she had colic, that she had reflux, that she had a milk allergy etc etc etc.... Then when we pumped, we noticed that I got 2 oz of foremilk and a bare sliver of hindmilk....that is when we put it all together....we had noticed that all the problems went away when she had more bottles of formula than breastmilk...finally after 8 weeks, we gave in and switched to full formula and she was fine.
The more bottles you give, the more your OALD or FM-HM is going to get worse. you need to keep on a good consistent on demand schedule and don't pump out your excess or you will keep telling your body to produce more and more milk. I know you don't want to give up BF---so try these things first. Go to a bland diet. Nurse on demand ONLY-cut out the formula. Comfort nurse if she wants to. Give your body time to get back in control of your milk production. and keep nursing on one side at a time!

HTH

Hugs to you mama! Sounds like a hard decision! If you do decide to switch to formula I would encourage you to keep pumping for at least the next couple weeks. It would be terrible for her to start having problems on the formula and your milk to be dried up.

I don't have any other advice. But trust your mama insincts that's all you can do. : )

Originally posted by BlsdMama
Okay - questions. :)
I agree it just *has* to be dietary. However, could it really be dairy if she can tolerate a milk based formula? I really wouldn't think so. She spent this last week almost entirely on formula and her diarrhea cleared up. Gave her breastmilk starting yesterday afternoon and it's baaaaack.

Also, while I'm doing the elimination do I continue to breastfeed? What about pain management for her?



Yes, it could still be dairy even if she is tolerating the dairy formula for now....if through all of this you have caused her to have a secondary type intolerance of allergy, then ANY switching will give her relief for a few days until the symptoms reappear.

Pain management....warmth on her tummy, constant burping....i like the hylands tablets a lot and they seemed to do a pretty decent job.

The formula is plain old Enfamil with iron.

Ingredients:
Nonfat milk, lactose, vegetable oil - the vegetable oil includes: palm, soy, coconut, and sunflower oils.

Yes, I do have a very forceful letdown. She has to let go of the nipple several times to avoid choking, but I think we've fixed that to. I just let the milk letdown and then take her off and let the milk go onto a diaper as suggested by several here. It actually seems to get stronger with each child. But I had a forceful letdown with Lizzie too and it never seemed to affect her.

I guess I'm going to have to do an elimination diet and then if nothing works, well I guess we're stuck. Well, this situation can humble a person pretty quickly can't it?

I would really encourage you to see an Internationally Board Certified Lactation consultant - one that is very experienced and has "seen it all". Call around and find out who has the best rep. in the city. It may cost you 70-80 dollars or more, but less than formula long term.

You may also need to do some genetic testing on your child to rule out some serious diseases if she can not tolerate your milk.

I second the person who said to cut everything out. Maybe eat rice and chicken and greenbeans for a week and see what happens.

As far as her pain, how about Gripe water, constant slinging, skin to skin, etc.

Hope this helps,
micky

Originally posted by mamamicky
I would really encourage you to see an Internationally Board Certified Lactation consultant - one that is very experienced and has "seen it all". Call around and find out who has the best rep. in the city. It may cost you 70-80 dollars or more, but less than formula long term.



I agree with a LC...but if you can't see one....I can tell you that all the information I gave you above and in the last time you posted was from them! LOL....

If you can't afford a LC....the hospital ones you delivered at should still be available to help (if you delivered in a hospital that is! LOL)

also, LLL can be a good help for this sometimes. My leaders were not the best here, but some of them are really good.

With the forceful let down, continue the squirting into a towel....Lizzie probably did not seem to have a problem with it before because she got used to it and could regulate it herself.

Well, I can't really say that I know a whole lot about this, as I am just starting the elimination diet myself. But, I am under the impression that a person can develop an intolerance or an allergy at any time.

Wheat can be a big one for a lot of babies/kids, and I think is harder than dairy to eliminate from your diet. I just went to the healthfood store and stocked up on wheatfree stuff - crackers, baking mix, snacky cereal, etc., to try to get us through the next few weeks.

It seems that the elimination diet would be the way to go, to at least rule that out. Eat a lot of rice, chicken, 100% rye crackers, spelt bread, beans, fish, veggies, oatmeal, non-citrus fruit, etc. The foods to avoid are: dairy, soy, wheat, yeast, tomatoes, citrus, peanuts, corn, eggs, coffee and tea, refined sugars, fruit juice, and food additives (artificial colors and flavors, etc.).

My situation is a bit different in that I am doing it for my toddler, who is still nursing, but not much. Since he turned 2 (almost a year ago), it seems like he is congested for a month or two at at ime, it goes away for a few weeks, and then it starts again. So we're doing this to see if it helps out.

My one experience with foods while nursing is that he seemed to tolerate everything pretty well, but did get fussy if I had a milkshake - it's like he could handle dairy, but not an overload of dairy. So even within a particular foodgroup there can be limits on what they can and can't tolerate. For instance, I've been told that butter, hard cheeses (like parmesan) and sometimes acidophilus yogurt can be tolerated by kids who are sensitive to dairy. But others can't even have anything with casein in it.

I'm sorry you're dealing with this - I too have always been militant about breastfeeding, so I know how hard this be for you.

Oh, and what to do in the meantime, while you are on the diet? Honestly, I would give her formula and continue to pump. You can try nursing after a week, and see what happens. Then two weeks, or something like that. But again, I really don't consider myself an expert on this, as I am just venturing into it myself.

and please don't overlook MSG! I had one of my 5 that I just could NOT find out what I was eating that was bothering him. I had cut my diet down to next to nothing. However, I wasn't vegetarian then, and bought lean ham from the deli. Well, it's loaded with MSG. Once I started reading labels and got it out of my diet he was perfectly fine. Eggs were also a problem with another of my children.

Originally posted by mamamicky

As far as her pain, how about Gripe water, constant slinging, skin to skin, etc.


I was going to say try these things as well. Many mamas have had good luck w/ gripe water, especially for the gassiness.

One of my LLL mamas had a baby who was severely allergic to peanuts. He exhibited the same symptoms you describe with your baby...the gassiness, the diahrrea, the fussiness. She saw everyone, us at LLL, an LC, her ped...she finally went to an allergist and they discovered it was a peanut allergy. Once she eliminated peanuts (and all tree nuts as well) and soy from her diet the problem got resolved. He happily weaned himself at 4 yrs!

Don't give up, mama. Try the elimination diet and do see an IBCLC.

Oh, and lots of (((hugs)))!!

Blessings,

I was just reading this post and I thought of my friend that was having the same problems with her baby. The doctor did testing and said that the baby was allergic to the mother's milk (???). She's preg with #4 now and all her babies have had to have formula because of that.

From what I have read the milk in formula is way different from the milk products for adults. The lactose is broken down.
A baby could have no reaction to a formula and could have a reaction to dairy products in your milk.
Someone correct me if I am wrong here.

Originally posted by BlsdMama
droolbucket,

If you don't mind my asking a couple of questions.

Of the stuff you've read about breastfeeding and diet having to do with sensitivities - did you run across anything where the baby was okay with what was in the diet, but then *not* okay? For example - I *do* like chocolate. However, she hasn't shown any sensitivity to it previously. DH comes home with chocolate at least twice a week and now he is SoCal and I'm in Iowa (waiting for him!) and my chocolate consumption has cut down significantly - only two candybars in three weeks!! However, can kids be okay with something and then just all of a sudden be sensitive to it? Oh, and I know it's not milk because she can drink a milk based formula just fine.

Second question, have you come across anything that would give you some indication of how long these things can affect your milk?

Originally posted by BlsdMama
Okay - questions. :)
I agree it just *has* to be dietary. However, could it really be dairy if she can tolerate a milk based formula? I really wouldn't think so. She spent this last week almost entirely on formula and her diarrhea cleared up. Gave her breastmilk starting yesterday afternoon and it's baaaaack.

Also, while I'm doing the elimination do I continue to breastfeed? What about pain management for her?

Jessica,

Could you please relate your story?

YES. Breakdown of the formula is going to be different in her digestion than that of breastmilk. Not to mention, it may not necessarily be "dairy" like someone was saying. It may be certain things IN certain dairy products, like casin, etc....I know Trace did fine while nursing, and when i got pg and couldn't keep up with him we went to a cup of whole milk. It made him ABSOLUTELY miserable. Changed to soy milk, and rice milk and he does great. He's able to eat whole milk yogurt tho, how much sense does that make? lol

CONTINUE to breastfeed if you really want to make it work. (not trying to sway you one way or the other) but giving her formula will probably just impede her in a couple of ways. She'll get used to the nipple and want to nurse less, she's used to the easy letdown of the nipple and isn't managing your forceful letdown as much so she'll probably forget or battle with it, AND the going back and forth with formula/breast milk while she's having trouble is probably REALLY messing up her belly.

Try Hylands tables, Gripe water (WONDERFUL stuff), mylicon if necessary, warm compresses to her belly, frequent burping, massages for comfort, etc...til you get her back on trace. That and a bland elimination diet for a week or two til you kinda figure out what's going on. NO PEANUTS, that's a big allergen factor there. Nurse ON demand, hourly if necessary, one breast at a time as long as she wants. Have a nursing marathon for a day or two, cosleep if necessary to get her back on track nursing wise.

((((((hang in there))))))) i know its SO hard trying to figure out these precious angel babies! Hopefully something will help and you can figure out what's going on!!!

hey :)
first, the 3 MAJOR culprits are egg, dairy and peanut-- these protiens pass into breastmilk whole, and are more difficult to digest. There are a lot of other things that =the baby could possibly be allergic to , but these are what I would cut out first. It very definaetly sound slike a food allergy to me-- if you can nursse on one side for several days i just dont think foremilk/hindmilk is your problem. Poor baby and mama--- getting a good start with breastfeeding can be hard sometimes-- ask me how I know that, lol. 2 years later we are going strong though-- the persistence paid off for, us.

i would love to try and help, or just be your cheerleader :) I know things can be hard, and terribly frustrating, but it really will get better.

heather