My dd sees it as a personal challenge to defy me. Any tips? Dh is going away for 10 days on Friday and then I have a year alone next year so I really need gentle parenting advice.

Well, I've found that if they consistantly get the opposite of what they want when the are behaving badly, they soon learn to obey.

Also - 123 magic works well with my defiant children. Though I don't use time out, I apply other consequences and they vary with the circumstance.

My defiant child likes to engage me in verbal debate lately (of course he's 7 now, when he was 4 it was different, but I don't remember how!) and 123 magic helps to cut the discussion. I often say "no means no" and "end of discussion, further discussion will result in X"

Also, having rules written down and chore lists written help curb the defiance, because the rules are coming from a "neutral source" Using a timer for things helps too. "you have till the timer goes off to get ready for bed and then I'll read you a story"

Mostly you just consistantly deal with the defiance. You cannot grow lazy. You can not ignore it and hope it will pass.

At the same time, you need to teach proper behavior. My defiant children love this the most. We role play:

A big problem we have is interupting me when I'm on the phone. When they do it I say "go back and do it the right way" Then send the child out of the room (I'm talking on the phone still). Then the child goes out and comes back and does as they have been taught to do and I say "excuse me please" to the person on the line and answer whatever need they had that caused them to inturupt.

Had I not yet taught that child the correct way to get my attention while I was on the phone, I would have quickly ended my conversation and then told my child how to do it right. (To quietly come up and tap my arm and then wait patiently for me to answer). Then - and this is the key - we would pretend for a bit with me having a fake conversation on the phone.

We do this lots with all sorts of things. From how to raise your hand during a HS presentation, to interupting, to how to work out an issue with a friend or sibling. I try to teach them how to act and practice it so they know the right way to act.

Oh and teach them to be helpful to you around the house. For example, my 4 yr old can clear her plate, scrap it into the trash, rinse it off and put it in the dishwasher. I have begun to teach her to fold the laundry. I have her help me when I dust or cook. I did this with my boys too and at 7 and 5 1/2, they are a tremendous help to me.

I know it will not be easy for you next year with your DH gone to 24/7 be teaching and guiding your children. I do hope you have some trusted people arround you that can care for your children so you get some time to yourself.

Do you have family, close friends nearby? How about your church family? If you don't, cultivating those relationships will help you greatly during that coming year. That and lots of prayer - God will sustain you when you are weary.

HTH - Melinda

I'm wondering what you mean by defiance? What types of situations is she not doing what you would like her to do?

It may be that she's needing more choices, more freedom and the trust that she can and will make choices that are "good". KWIM?

With a bit more perspective I may have some suggestions for you! :)

I will have to look for that book.

Amy,

Here is an example of her defiance:

She needs to tidy her room. She flat out refuses. I tell her she will lose a privilidge, well she just doesn't care. If she does happen to care what she looses she will scream at the top of her lungs for about 1/2 an hour and still not tidy her room. It seems like a battle of wills.

;)

Seriously, why does she NEED to tidy her room? Does she like it messy? lol

My initial suggestion on this would be to let it get as absolutely messy as it could possibly be, and let her decide when to clean it. If she can't find clothes, toys or books that she wants...that is the natural consequence of not cleaning things up. Of course, this requires a lot of intestinal fortitude on your part to tolerate it longer than she does. ;)

By threatening her (which is what you're doing when you tell her she'll lose a privalege), she is stimulated into an "autonomy tantrum" which most of us have (adults and kids alike) when someone tells us what to do. It totally removes any intrinsic desire to contribute to another's well being (which is what she'd be doing for you if she cleaned her room), and instead triggers us to dig our heels in and maintain our autonomy.

Have you told her WHY you want her to clean her room? Because you need the support to keep your home nicely, you want the ease of finding things without a major search, it's distressing to you when things are in disarray - whatever the reasons.

I would be willing to role play this with you if you're interested. We could meet in the chat room, I'll play you and you can play her. It might be really mind opening for both of us! lol

Truly - I don't think that forcing kids to obey is effective in the long run. They WILL rebel. Studies have shown that kids raised in a punative home setting are MORE likely to be "troublemakers" away from home. Punative = punishment, either physical or othewise. IMO it also breaks down trust and honesty, and I don't want my dd to fear talking to me about *anything*. I was scared about talking to my parents, punished to the extreme as a teen and totally acted out (and got into many situations that were extremely dangerous) away from home.

Sorry, off on a tangent...but overall - I think if you offer your dd more choices it will make for a more peaceful home life. Talk to her about how scared and overwhelmed you feel thinking of dh being gone, and that you need support and connection with the family to keep things up and running while he's gone. Kids WANT to contribute, we just try to force them to do it and it backfires.

Good luck mama...keep us posted!

Hmmm...I tried Amy's approach for a good amount of time with the girls and their room, and it did not work for us at all. I think it really depends on the child. I am not even going to say how long their room was a total disaster, because it's embarassing. Many of their toys got broken, things got ruined...when it started becoming a safety issue that was the end of that. Chloe saw the natural consequences of their room being like that and it never inspired her to clean up. When I went in her room one day and stepped on a picture they had thrown on the floor and cut my foot open, that was it.

My take on it is this-we are a family and we all have "jobs" to do. Sometimes they're not always fun, sometimes we would rather do something else, but we have to do our "job." We talked about how one of Daddy's jobs is to go to work and earn money, even when he's really tired and doesn't want to get up at 5 a.m. How one of my jobs is to take care of them, even if I'm not feeling well or am tired. We talked about chores and I told her from now on one of her chores is going to be picking up her room every day. Before bath time she is to pick up any toys or books that were not put away during the day. Anything that's left out at bedtime is taken out of the room.

I did clean up their room prior to that, because it was so messy there was no way I would expect her to be able to do it. I had her help me, and I showed her where we put everything. Books go on the bookcase, puzzles and coloring books have their own shelves, and we have three baskets-one for wooden toys, one for their dolls and misc. toys, and one for dress up. I'm not anal about things being in the wrong basket or anything but I think it helps her to know where things "should" go. I am happy to help her put things away at night, and it's never a battle. I do have to be very dilligent about this though, because Lily is still VERY messy and can destroy their room in a day. The few times I've let this happen, it's been a struggle to get back on track.

HTH with the room cleaning. I don't really have any suggestions on defiance in general. I do agree with talking to her. I think sometimes we (in general) don't tell our children how we're feeling because we think they won't understand, are too young, etc. It's amazes me sometimes the talks Chloe and I can have. And they do want to help, at least usually. ;) Chloe was actually very excited about chores and having "jobs" like Mommy and Daddy. I don't think letting it stay a mess works for every child. I can still remember how nasty my room was as a child, my mom never made me clean it. I really wish she would have.

ITA with you Amber - my kids don't care about the natural consequences of a messy room!!

What I've done is get my kids into the habit of putting things away after they are done with it. I started when they were little and you are involved in most of their play.

Also - everything has a place - this helps a great deal with clean-up. It can be very overwhelming to clean when you don't know what to do with it.

We have a very small house, 1100 sq ft with 6 people in it! so messes anywhere make our home hard to function. The kids bedrooms are only 10 X 10 and they each hold 2 kids. It doesn't take long to make it so you can't walk in the room!

Anyway - I don't battle with my kids, I find the motivation.

For one of mine - he loves to race the timer to get things done. One likes to count all the stuff he's putting away. Another needs some type of carrot (when you clean, I'll read to you).

It sounds like you need to find the motivation. If taking away a priviledge doesn't help, then don't do that. Maybe you need to verbally walk her through cleaning (pick up all the socks, great! now pick up all the dolls, look what a good job you are doing!)

Honestly, my kids generally take pride in their chores. They feel like a useful member of the household. They know that what they are doing is truely helpful and important. My kids have lots of responsibilities and don't give me much flack about doing it.

One thing that 123 magic emphasises that I really like is the 'no emotion, no talk' in other words, you don't get all upset that they aren't doing what you want. You just calmly deal without without discussion. That way it isn't a battle - after all, your child can't battle alone. THey may chose to scream and yell - but it loses its appeal if mom does not respond!

Melinda

I'm in complete agreement - some kids simply DON'T care about living in squallor! ;) We're also talking about a 4 yr old, who probably would benefit from modeling and initiative from mom at first.

We have house agreements too, but I don't force Ava to do anything (aside from things regarding safety). It's like breaking her spirit to me, and I simply won't do it. "Yes I'll read to you, but I want to pick up the blocks first because it hurts my feet when I step on the. Would you help me so we can get to our book more quickly?" If she helps - that's fantastic, if she doesn't, I may be disappointed but it's not a huge issue. She's only 3, and I trust that she will learn in time.

The reason I don't care for 1-2-3 Magic IS BECAUSE it is no emotion no talk. I think that's an abnormal response (as is screaming at the top of my lungs). I can communicate my feelings and needs in a language she can understand, that is not damaging, that offers me some relief from frustration and it is teaching her that certain behaviors elicit and stimulate certain responses. Don't get me wrong, in a "toddler moment" I may just do what needs to be done without a discussion but I don't intentionally withhold my feelings or thoughts and I don't expect her to either.

Originally posted by Dancing~Giraffe
Don't get me wrong, in a "toddler moment" I may just do what needs to be done without a discussion but I don't intentionally withhold my feelings or thoughts and I don't expect her to either.

I agree with that. There have been a few occasions when I've been so angry or frustrated that I've had to say "I can't discuss it right now, we will talk when Mommy calms down" or something, but I always talk to them about why we have to do things.

I guess I just see it differently. I don't see myself forcing them to do anything, I see it as there are just things we all have to do sometimes. We do them not only because they are our "jobs" but because we love and respect each other. And because it's simply the right thing to do in our house. We all help each other. :)

I hope you find what works for your family Sara. Let us know how things are going. :)

And some parents just expect too much. Honestly, I used to, and sometimes still do, needing to catch myself and remember how old my kids are and so on. Not you Sara, LOL....but when considering things like this, make sure you take into account your childs age and abilities. And it's true, some kids don't care about a messy room.....BUT I bet all kids care when they can't find their "need it now" toys, and you point out to them that well, if we clean up this mess together, we'd likely find the toy....and explain why we keep things neat, to avoid this. I cannot live with a messy house, period. I have let my house go a bit, and I dealt with that, I was too picky and expecting too much from my dh and kids, so for me, letting go a bit was hard, but needed. I was going nuts! BUT I refuse to have a messy, dirty house. Soooooo, my kids are not allowed to let their rooms get messy, and by this I do not mean while playing in them, or leaving their dolls and such out cause they set it up and will be back later to play....I mean no 10 toys out all at once, playing with them separately, dirty, etc. Justin is 4, and he gets messy quite often, and then he comes out and asks to play play-doh, or watch a movie...and we say no, not til the mess is cleaned up, and always offer to help. He sometimes gets aggravated and feels overwhelmed, so we help, explain and remind him his room gets this bad when he does not put the blocks away before getting out the trains, and now we need to clean it up, etc. It's all done gently, and since doing it since early on, they really progress naturally, and understand why their rooms need to be kept neat and so on. Now I also believe kids need some choices and space, and know parents who expect perfection and blocks stacked "this way" and books stacked "only like this"....that, to me, is way too harsh. My kids have rooms made easy to clean......bins, baskets, etc. to toss things in, things easy to see, etc. And it looks neat without too much work and hassle. Chelsie is 12 and her room is never really messy, she likes her room neat and I believe it's because we have instilled in her why rooms and homes should be kept clean and neat, and she appreciates that. Though my kids do have, like adults do too, junk areas....LOL. Like Sarah has one shelf in her room she puts all her little jewels and treasures and such on, and it always looks messy to me, but not to her.....that is her shelf. Chels has a drawer like that, and Justin, well, a few of his bins are like that, LOL. *But* they are all IN bins and on the shelf, so I am happy. (o:

I really think explaining how and why to kids does work....of course it must be tailored to the age, and respecting that no 2 year old CARES right now that you are saying his toys are lost cause he made the mess, all he wants is those toys and that's all he is thinking about, your words are not mattering. LOL.

Sara, maybe make a list, alone, and consider what you want, can live with, would really like but may be asking too much, etc. Go from there, and you may see you are asking too much, or that little things would indeed make a difference in your day and that those things can be done and need to be done, etc. And please Mama, you will be a "single" parent for a while, learn to allow yourself that......Eat out, take naps, take breaks, etc. You need time too, and deserve it! (o:

Oh, and Sara, I don't remember how old your Diana is, but if she was mine, and say about age 4 or 5 or so, and refused to clean up her room, I'd tell her it needed to be done, and why...and ask her if she'd like some help doing it. If she did, I'd step in, help, and make it fun, while talking to her about how neat it looks and how easy it is to find things now, etc. If she refused, I'd say ok, you need to do it, and until you do, we canot go anywhere or do other activities...and I'd go on about my own stuff. And when her brother wants to play play-doh, or go to the yard, or have a snack, she'd be excluded with a reminder that her room needed to be cleaned first, and did she now want my help. I'd also make sure her room was easy for her to clean....she may need some baskets added, bins, decluttering.....(as I should talk since my own kids rooms now need severe decluttering, LOL.....)

This looks like a very interesting thread. I haven't read it all but will do so later when I have more time. I totally agree with DG's first response. It is their space. And at the same time, I know my children dislike cleaning so much (I believe from my own views of dreaded work and imposed cleaning sessions) that I know they probably wouldn't clean their rooms if they had rooms.

I really struggle with cleaning. I am sick of living in a pigsty but that is MY lesson in where I am in life.

I do have some ideas which are helpful to us. Very similar to how Amy/DG does things, when they children want to turn on the tv, switch movies or start playing video games, I ask that they pick up three things. Blocks, kitchen, and dolls. Trains, play dough, and cars. This should be used all day long though. If they think it is something quick, they are more likely to be agreeable to do it.

Also, when the house is clean, I really point out how nice it feels. The room feels so inviting now, so relaxing. Look you can do your sommersaults now or spin in the computer chair. And I play it up. I lay down on the floor and stretch out. Ooh, I feel like doing some yoga now. Hey, we can exercise now! (something my children love to watch me do)

I gotta get going. I need to clean. LOL