I’m at my wit’s end. I’m not comfortable opening up but I don’t know what else to do. I feel like such a failure as a mother. Maybe I’m expecting too much from dd, I don’t know. I’ve never been around little kids before so I don’t know what’s “normal”. Dd is 3.5 yo. She is a “spirited” child. She picks things up so quickly and I know she comprehends things. But she doesn’t stay with anything for more than a few minutes at a time. I call her Ricochet Rabbit sometimes because she bounces from activity to activity. That concerns me greatly. I really wanted to homeschool her but I found myself leafing thru the yellow pages this morning for a preschool. I don’t have the patience needed to teach her. She “plays dumb” and that really sets me off. The more frustrated I get the more she laughs. She can do something 100 times and then I’ll ask her to do it and she’ll suddenly have no clue. She’ll ask questions like “Is this the kitchen?”, “are you my mommy?”, “how did you eat that?” and she’ll ask it 20 times until I answer. And then she’ll ask it again and again. Dh tells me to ignore her but I can’t tune her out like he can. Besides, she’s hardly ever more than 3 feet away from me. She’ll do nothing to help herself it seems. At lunchtime I slipped off to make the bed. As soon as I was gone I heard her yelling. “OW, OW, OWWWWW!!! I gotta go potty!!!!!!” Instead of going to the bathroom like she does many times every day, she chooses to scream and hop up and down instead of going to the bathroom. I have to tell her “go to the bathroom”. Then she’ll run to the bathroom and go. I don’t understand why she’ll ask me if she can go sometimes and just scream the rest of the time. She does everything herself: turn on the lights, go potty, clean up, flush, wash hands, dry hands, turn off light. I’m convinced that she would just go in her pants if I didn’t tell her to go to the bathroom. She does not have a UTI or constipation. I don’t know why she does it. Eating is a nightmare every single day. It’s been 1.5 hours since she sat down to lunch. It’ll take her that long some days to eat her lunch. Other days she’ll inhale it in 5 minutes. Today she was yelling at me to load her fork for her. She refuses to do it herself. I’m sure 3.5 yo children can feed themselves, right? But she’ll sit there (a rare occurrence) and yell “I need help!” but she is fully capable of doing it herself. Instead of picking up the fork she’ll tell me she’s ready for another bite. I can’t bear to sit at the dinner table with my family anymore because it is always such a pita. She throws temper tantrums at the drop of a hat. One day I gave her a bowl of sliced apples. I caught her crushing the apples with her foot. I took it away from her and she started screaming like I had pulled her arms out of their sockets. She’ll start crying for no apparent reason and when you ask her what the problem is she’ll say something like “I told you I didn’t want to…” when she hadn’t said anything, or it is something totally off the wall…maybe something that had happened a month or two previously. If she does something bad and I tell her she’s going in timeout she’ll start screaming “I want 5 minutes! 5 minutes” at the top of her lungs. Then she’ll scream herself raw for as long as it takes to wear me down. She understands that she can come out if she is quiet and doesn’t make a fuss, which she will do, but only after the hysterical screaming and my intervention. When I try to speak calmly to her, to explain to her that her behaviour is not acceptable, she just yells in my face. I have no idea what to do anymore. Nothing seems to work. Sorry this is so long but this is what I currently deal with on a day to day basis and I can’t do it anymore. I’m so depressed lately and dh is no help. He tells me to put her in her room all day if that’s what it takes. We go to the gym sometimes but she gets put into timeout there as well and I’ll get called off the floor to come deal with her. I never get a break. At night she insists on me being in bed with her or reading to her…she started whining last night on the way to bed and dh started yelling at her, which in turn made her cry and come running for me, which in turn pissed him off because I tried to calm her down. I am stressed out to the max. Why does it have to be this hard? Sorry mamas, I just had to get this out.

Originally posted by welshrabbit
Instead of going to the bathroom like she does many times every day, she chooses to scream and hop up and down instead of going to the bathroom. I have to tell her “go to the bathroom”. Then she’ll run to the bathroom and go. I don’t understand why she’ll ask me if she can go sometimes and just scream the rest of the time.

IME, this part is normal. Many kids this age will even wake up a parent to tell them "I have to go potty" even when they can do it themselves. The parent says "then go" and the child does. I don't know why, lol! but I do believe it's normal. My almost 2 yo will come up to me and say "pay?" meaning he wants to go play w/his siblings in their room. WHY he asks me I have no clue, b/c the door is open etc., I just say "okay, go play" and he trots off. :)

The rest of what you wrote sounds positively exhausting, just reading it. :( You are well within your rights to be worn out. I'm sure you will get some good suggestions here.

I wish i could help you but DS is 3 and teh same way. His latest thing is "what?" and look at me like he has no idea what I am talking about. Drives me up the wall!! We aren't potty trained yet but I am sure that will be another issue! Hugs Mama! I understand totally! Kate

Are you sure Alex & Sophie aren't the same kid?

*SERIOUSLY* :o

The bathroom & eating thing especially. DH doesn't handle it well. He just starts yelling.

I just feel like I'm gonna lose my mind some days because of her behavior. Maybe it's the age?? I don't know.... That's what I keep blaming it on.

You know what else Sophie does that drives me batty....

She's always saying names - stupid little names like "Pickle Head" or "Stinky Butt". Or we'll be singing a song and she'll throw in something.... "Mary had a little poopy" or "Jesus loves the little chickens".

ARGH! It drives me crazy. :o

Poor mama {{{Hugs}}} You sound like you need a break. I can tell you that the bathroom thng is toatlly normal. My oldest two are 5 and 7 and I swear there are days that they come and tell me EVERY TIME that they have to go to the bathroom. I have no idea why they just feel the need to. I just say "so go". But that must be a normal thing. With all the other things i have no advise but I'm giving you a major hug. Take care.

Hugs for you! She sounds to me like a normal spirited child. My dd is 3 and we have days like that. I admit it sounds like you definately have your hands full, but she sounds within normal for a kid to me.
Sorry I don't have much advice! Just want to let you know to hang in there. It is most likely a phase that will end soon. And try not to give up on homeschooling. Think of what a hard time she would have not having you there to take care of her all day. I know it must be really hard but you sound like you are a great mother and doing a great job coping. Things come and go with kids, and I bet she will be in a more cooperative phase soon. :thumbsup:

Wow! My oldest was a spirited/high needs kid, but yours sounds even more full on!

If my dd had done all that, my response would have been like your dh: she goes into the room, and gets completely ignored until she pulls it together. When people would go in and tell her to be quiet, cause she was being a pain, she discovered that if she screams loud enough, she will bug people, and get the attention she wants, and then she will shut up. So I never let anyone near her, and never let her out until she could show me that she was over her trip, and eventually it stopped, cause it was no fun. I have been known to put her in the closet with all the muffling clothes, though, if it was REALLY irritating people. That was even less fun for her.

Now, I don't know your dd personally, so my perspective isn't guaranteed to work for you, but if my dd ever pulled any of that on me, she would be immediately in time out, or, for things like where she decided to hit herself in the head (that'll show mom!) if she didn't like how things are going, being completely ignored. Fairly quickly (not overnite, but within a few times), she would get the message that that is not going to get attention, and would quit it. She still does stuff, but on the whole, she has got to the point where it's pointless, cause nobody is going to care.

A lot of that stuff to me sounds like manipulation, and attention getting, and and if she isn't getting the response she wants, she most likely will stop. Personally, if my dd was taking 1 1/2 hours to eat lunch, I would have taken it away, and let her starve til the next meal. I am not her servant, and it is not my responsibility to make her eat. It is my responsibility to provide good nutritious foods, and make them available to her on a regular basis. It is up to her to make use of them. If she doesn't, well, she will get another chance at the next meal!

Anyway, HTH, and good luck!

Murali

Does she get a lot of interaction with other children?? She does sound normal for a child her age. My dd is about the same age, she'll be 4 at the end of August. And she sounds similar to my dd before she started going to school. She's very intellectual, she started talking very early. And she is able to understand abstract things that just shocks me sometimes.

Starting at around 18 months, I started taking her out for activities. We went to gymnastics, we went to Kindermusik, but she was so shy she hid behind me for most of the classes, so she didn't really get to play with the kids.

By the time she was 2 1/2, she was bored at home with me and would do some of those things, like crushing food on the floor, etc. I had thought I wanted to homeschool, but I felt she needed the socialization without me there with children to play with and we just don't have any kids in our neighborhood that are even close to her age. So I went searching for a preschool and found a wonderful montessori school just 2 minutes from home. And it has made a world of difference.

Now I will tell you, for the first 2 months of preschool, I was embarassed to be her mother sometimes. She would get in a lot of trouble, sent to office frequently, I started to doubt whether she was old enough to be in school. She even called her teacher and a classmate a few not so nice names. But she had never been away from me, she had never really played with other children, so she was learning how to interact in that setting.

But by the middle of October, everything changed, she became a different child, she became one of the best behaved in her class, she always wanted to be a helper to her teacher by passing things out and getting things from the office, she was always the first to go ask another child to play if they looked sad or lonely. By the end of the school year, her teacher told me she would be one of the ones she missed the most.

And it had made a difference at home. She no longer crushes her food on the floor and screams, etc. And she loves for me to teach her things now. We no longer have the battles for her to do the simplest things. And it's nice to have a break for 3 hours, twice a week, I got a lot of stuff done then, lol.


(((HUGS)))

Not to be rude but I am laughing my head off right now because I swear I must have written this myself! ;) LOL

I too have a 3½ yr old and she does the exact same things. Maybe to a lesser degree because there are siblings but still the same dang things!

Takes forever and a day to eat, cries and throws tantrums at the drop of a hat (even if you touch her the "wrong" way" it "waaahhhh; you hurt me!") and the potty thing, UGH! She potty trained faster than my 4 yr old and still they both ask to go potty at times WTH is up with that!? I don't know either. They can go potty all by themselves for half the day and then all of a sudden they too are holding their crotch screaming "I gotta go potty!" like they need me to tell them it's okay to potty! It is insane! AND frustrating!

Racehl my 3½yr old is the slowest to eat as well. Sariah the 4½yr old will be on her second helping and Rachel will have just barely touched her food. i try not to force only because children are more intune with their bodies and food needs than adult so i "TRY" to refain from telling them to finish everything YK?! I just warn them that this is "meal time" and they aren't going to be eating again until such and such time, so when and if they ask for a snack later i will remind them that they didn't finish their "meal" and that it isn't time to snack. I hoep to convey the importance of eating until full so they aren't snacking on junk food all day long, YK?! Still it seems it never works.

I have learned to tune them out more than my DH. These two will fight over some of the stupidest things and unless I am really bothered by the screaming and crying I try not to do anythig about it and let them figure it out or wait until they ask me to intervene.

I also don't get the playing dumb thing. It is the biggest PITA in the world! I will ask them to retreive something in plain sight, and it is an object they I know they know what it is and yet all of a sudden it becomes something so foreign that I might as well be asking them to reteive a new planet out of their butt, YK?!

SO I am right there with you. I too was doing the same thing with going back and forth between HS and PS. I am still not sure as I have a 17mo old and a new baby coming. I feel overwhelmed thinking how in the hell could I possibly handle these two on an educational level.

SO while I am laughing right along "with" you I am sympathizing up the wahzoo with you as well! BTDT and I still have no real advice.

It's totally normal! I have a 3.5 yr girl too, and she is exhausting at times! Every night no matter what's for dinner.. it's "Ewwwwwwwwww" kicking and screaming at the table. We just ignore it, she either eats or she doesn't. No hand feeding. She often asks "dumb" questions that she very well knows that answer to, I truly think children this age need alot of one on one attention and affirmation and from my past experience, it's a stage that passes (thank goodness!) Hugs!

Veronica
#6 9/3

Hmmm James does the fork thing too.. especially when he's getting frustrated or eating peas. :rolleyes: He is 3.5 btw. He also does the silly question thing... not all that often.. but he gets in his silly silly moods and starts acting all weird.. I just chalk it up to being 3.5! *lol*
{{hugs}} Mama.. hope things get better soon!
~C

first 3.5's will want you to do things for themthat they can do themselves and/or ask you for everything. they are phyically able but emotioally not ready to have to be independent all the time.


second i don't think timeouts work-usually the tantrum is related to soem stress they have experiences AT ANYTIME in their life and this is just when they are falling apart. they don't need isolation, they need attention. but not to try and make them stop crying, but to let them have a good long cry. they just need to release all the tension. i have a 3.5 who will scream and lose his mind at what appears to be nothing. so i say to him "wow, you must be very frustrated". i pick him up and tell him, "do you need to have a good cry?". he will 99.9% of the time scream, "YESSSSSSS!!", break into a cry for maybe 5-20 minutes (wiht me holding him and telling him its okay to be frustrated). and them when he calms down a little i tell him a story about when i was a girl and wanted to cry. usually he will end up with another good cry after he says, "that's how i feel!!!". but after that there is always a good nap and a peaceful child for several days/weeks.

i think it is important to teach our children HOW to deal with frustration. and even though we don't want them to cry their whole lives when they are frustrated, it is appropriate for a 3.5 yo. what else do they have?


now i just want to add that i beleived in timeouts (they needed to understand that their behavior wasn't socially acceptable blabla) until a friend pointed me to this book" Tears and Tantrums by ? Solter.

hope you find some items that help you here. i know it can be hard when you just want to scream "shut the F*** up!!!" being a mommy is a difficult job!

Luna
mom to 3 boys-doing all the good crunchie stuff!!

Sounds like a "normal" 3.5yo child to me :)
(whatever "normal" is, lol)
(or should i say, as "normal" as a 3.5yo child can be?)

Either way, sounds like age appropriate to me.

I call her Ricochet Rabbit sometimes because she bounces from activity to activity. >>>>

I think sometimes these kinds of things you just have to ignore.
I have a very hyper acting son(8YO) who literally will walk circles around the other kids while they are watching a TV show, sitting on the floor.
I have apparently learned to tune it out( so have the other kids LOL) because I dont even notice it much until someone else points it out to me.

She’ll ask questions like “Is this the kitchen?”, “are you my mommy?”, “how did you eat that?” >>>>>>

You might want to consider if she is above average? gifted? I know you think she is asking "dumb" questions... but one of my other sons STILL does this and he is 13 now. LOL
I figured out a long time ago that he is looking for MORE then the average answer.
He is very analytical and wants to know "more"
He has bugged the heck out of me forever with his "dumb" questions. LOL
He words it in a way that makes him sound like a dodohead, but I know he is seeking more knowledge then he has and wants my input on it.
" Why do we wear clothes?" might mean he would like a conversation about other cultures and their clothing habits, how clothes have developed over history etc etc... he doesnt want to hear " to keep our bodies warm... and so we are not naked in public" LOL



I don’t understand why she’ll ask me if she can go sometimes and just scream the rest of the time.>>>>>>

Hmm... there are 2 different ideas I have in my head about his... one being, she is just a little girl.. maybe sometimes she needs the assurance of her mommy "taking care of her".

The other being... I have 5 kids, and dont have time to deal with each child in ways your daughter is wanting, so my kids dont ask. LOL
Maybe try a little tough love and just dont do the things she asks?
Dont load the fork... tell her "if your hungry enough, you'll eat" and ignore her.
If she proceeds to scream excuse her to her room and tell her she can come out when she wants to load her own fork.
That puts the ball in her court.

When she hops around having to go to the bathroom tell her she doesnt need your permission or help to go to the bathroom.
if she does happen to stand there and wet her pants, tell her she better go change them.
I wouldnt punish her, but just let her take care of it herself, she will see that yor not going to come and rescue her.


When I try to speak calmly to her, to explain to her that her behaviour is not acceptable, she just yells in my face.>>>>>>>>


I would do the same as I said before, either tell her, or pick her up and sit her on her bed and say" you can come out when your done yelling " Id do it at the very first second of her yelling at you.
It puts the ball right in her court... She gets to decide when she can control herself.
When she comes out ask her if she wants to talk about how he behavior could be more acceptable.

Originally posted by welshrabbit
But she doesn’t stay with anything for more than a few minutes at a time.

She’ll ask questions like “Is this the kitchen?”, “are you my mommy?”, “how did you eat that?” and she’ll ask it 20 times until I answer. And then she’ll ask it again and again.

These are things Annabelle does. We'll be reading one book and get half way though it and she'll want to read another one. I'm really firm with the "not until we finish this one first" thing.

As for all the questions, I get that too. My answer can be "Well, what do you think it is?" or "You show me how you eat it!". It's like she wants to show off her new skill. Part of it can be fantasy play, too. Sometimes it's not a kitchen, sometimes it's a playground or a cave or what have you. Maybe it's Little Bear's kitchen and I'm Mama Bear making some muffins rather than the beans I have in the crock pot.

If you haven't read them I'd suggest reading "Your Three Year Old", the spirited child books and "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and How To Listen So Kids Will Talk". I have a friend with three spirited three and half year olds and she swears by that last book.

Your husband sounds like a totally separate issue. My DH was a lot like that too. I started handing him books, articles and sending him URLs. He's very scientifically minded so studies and PHDs made all the difference. He's eventually come around to understanding child development and that just about everything is just a stage.

I have read that for lots of people that three year olds are *worse* to deal with than two year olds. That scares me a bit.

I put myself in time outs when I am getting too upset. Annabelle is pretty good about staying away until I calm down.

Sounds very much like the almost 4 year old boy in this house. Somedays I think it is more than I can take too.


THe thing that really gets me going is trying to get him to look for things before he starts screaming that he wants them. I can tell him that sos and so toy is right behind you on the florr and he'll stand up and start looking at the celing, couch or in the other room.I know he understands what "behind you on the floor" means but it must be fun to wathc mama's blood pressure rise! :rolleyes:

I also get a lot of the screaming with out telling me what he wants/needs. *That* is very likely to make me go bald very soon.

I really think my ds needs to be around other kids more. HE does so much better in social situations because he other kids to model. He will be going to preschool 3 half days a week starting in August. I can't wait! Many days I am not enjoying this stage.:(

Poor Susan! I know what you're going through. My short answers are 1)try to find a nice preschool and 2) read 1-2-3 Magic. I like preschool because it shows my dd that she can have a good time even when the focus is on another child or children. 1-2-3 Magic is not everyone's cup of tea, but I would have gone insane if I didn't have it so see if your library has a copy.

You are not a bad mom!;)

Some of the behavior you described sounds very typical of a girl that age, but I also think that it can get worse depending on how the parents react.

My dd is also 3.5 and just started acting out that way. I agree that "tough love" is in order. I have a friend who has raised 4 children...her 5th is giving her major problems because her daddy spoils her and gives in to every request. My dd started acting like her little friend...but the difference is: I don't give in, I recognize the change in behavior and that it is an act, and I let her know that she is not going to get anywhere acting like that.

My little girl is very stubborn and likes to feel in control of her own decisions. So I give her limited choices: do you want water or milk? do you want to wear the pink dress or the purple one? And I don't allow her to talk me into otherwise. She usually ends up making her choice and being very happy. I do keep things light-hearted, not ogre-like:D , and it works very well.

The problems you are dealing with sound like a power struggle some of the time...and possibly an issue with boredom and not having other kids to play with to keep her busy. Even one other kid around may be a big help.

Good luck, mama! I hope you can find something that works for you.

Susan,

Sorry I don't have any advice for you, but I just wanted to say you are not alone. I think my 2 boys are currently on a quest to see if they can put me in the looney bin. Day in and day out is a constant battle with those 2 lately. I can also completely sympathize with you on the dh thing. My dh works long hours and is rarely around and when he is home, he is no help whatsoever with the kids.
I wish I had some answers for you :( but I wanted to tell you that I hear your frustration and have totally BTDT and still am!
You could always come to TX for a visit and we could be miserable together. :D

~Colleen

Originally posted by welshrabbit
She’ll ask questions like “Is this the kitchen?”, “are you my mommy?”, “how did you eat that?” and she’ll ask it 20 times until I answer.

((susan))

i haven't read all the responses yet but i did want to address this one part, hope i am not repeating anyone.

all of my kids have done this. almost all the time i just answer them according to the age of the child.

ie...is this the kitchen?
yes, this is the kitchen
yes, why do you ask?
what do you think, is this the kitchen?
or if i am in a bad mood...d'oh, of course it's the kitchen :rolleyes:!

are you my mommy?
yes, and i am so glad to be your mommy :)
yes, why do you ask?
yes, did you want to read that book?

how did you eat that?
i just ate it, what do you mean?
just like you did. how did you eat yours?
first i chewed it, then i swallowed it, from there the digestive system takes over with parastaltic motion. (probably the answer i would give my 6 yo, not a 3 yo)
bad mood answer: without smacking, try it!

those sometimes annoying questions turn into great teachable moments. it can be exhausting but imo is a big part of parenting. we all run out of patience, that's why i added the bad mood answers. i try to answer their questions well but to say i never allow myself to get annoyed would be a big fat lie.

hth at least an itty bitty bit :)

BLess your heart! I'm so sorry you are so stressed. But she sounds like a TOTALLY normal 3 year old. TOTALLY. She's feeding off of your tension now, she's realizing that she's getting a reaction. it doesn't matter to her WHAT reaction, but any reaction is good. Honestly? i think your DH is right. Easier said than done, but if it means staying in her room all day, then so be it. I think a LOT of this is a battle of wills. Like Dr. Phil says, never get into a battle of wills with your child unless you KNOW you will win. Don't EVER back down, cuz if you do it once, then they'll take it and run with it. Consistency is the key. LIke the crushing apples with her foot. She KNEW you wouldn't like that, but it was fun and she did it anyway. So you took the apples away, and she threw a fit. Lately i've taken to walking past Gage and ignoring the fits, cuz i don't know what else to do. We are having a standoff on drinking water these days. He only wants juice or milk, and i'm TRYING to get him to drink as many glasses of water as he does of juice. So last night he stood in the kitchen and screamed for 20 minutes thathe wanted juice. DH and i sat on the couch and ignored him. Finally he came out, and hasn't mentioned it again. HOPEFULLY he gets the picture. With your dd, she's trying to get a rise out of you, and its working so she continues to do it. TRY (and i KNOW how hard it is) not to get angry or yell or anything, but when she's misbehaving, just calmly put her in her room, or time out, or whatever, and then go about your business. If she sees that it doesn't bother you, then she'll more than likely stop it and move on to something else.

Lord knows i'm not an expert, and i've been here whining and crying about the SAME things that you have! Just a few thoughts for you, i hope you find what works for you soon! And forgive me if i've repeated something that someone else has said, i didn't read the responses.

I'm a little surprised to see so many mamas saying that this is normal 3yo behavior.

Do you always or almost always give in to her? Sometimes it might take her longer and longer to act up, but eventually you do succumb to her desires?

I've let all of my children rule the roost for a very long time and speaking from experience it is harder to take back some authority the older they get. And the demands become more demanding, the no's become NO's and the struggles are more tiresome.

I've been reading Charlotte Mason's ideas on raising children. Yes, it's a homeschooling curriculum, but she has so much more to offer parents.

"It is no doubt much easier to lay down our authority and let the children follow their own lead, or be kept in order by another, than to exercise constant watchfulness in the exercise of our calling. But this is not in our option; we must rule with diligence. It is necessary for the children that we should, but we must keep ourselves continually in check, and see that our innate love of power finds lawful outlet in the building up of a child's character, and not in the rude rebuff, the jibe and sneer, the short answer and hasty slap which none of us older people could conceivably endure ourselves, and yet practice freely on the children 'for their good'." --Charlotte Mason, Book #5-- Formation of Character , Part 1 V, Consequences

You can read her texts here, if you're interested: http://baty.freeyellow.com/page1.htm

Hannah is 4 and she plays dumb as well. It is the number one thing that does it for me and I just go batty. I will ask her to pick up all her books. She will take 12hrs to do it and when she picks something up she has to look at me and show me the book first. I have to tell her...."oookkkk, now go put it away, don't just show it to me" I feel so bad cause I just get so stinking annoyed with her. She knows how to do things, and that is why it irritates me when she doesnt just do it. Hannah also says she has to go to the bathroom. Umm... ok so GO already. She will go in there and then come out and say "The pee is starting!!!!!" Ok so instead of coming out to tell me, get your bootie on the toilet and let it out. sigh. I feel your pain ;) We just don't understand why they do these things. I often feel that I just am expecting too much, but when it is over and over and over and over... the little things will set us off by the end of the day. Hannah has been in an "I don't know" stage. Nothing aggravates me more than to hear "I don't knowwww".
"hannah, why did you just poke your brother in the eyes"
"I don't know"
"yes you do know... you did it cause you wanted to. "

she threw away a pack of diapers once when cleaning up her toys. no idea why. and it really made me mad. Esp cause when asked why she did it.... "I don't know". GRRRR. She instigates things with her brother and when asked to just stay away from him... two seconds later she is in his face again. Like she is askingf or trouble or she seriously doesnt remember what I just told her. But I know she does.

This age is hard. Hannah is a very smart child and I think it makes it harder. I have questioned homeschooling her as well. I just don;'t feel I can give her what she needs when I will have her brother and a new baby.

Anyways, no advice really... just wanted to say I can sympathize with several things. Hannah has never done the screaming thing and stuff though. She has been a pretty easy kiddo except for the recent playing dumb thing ;)

Originally posted by hadalamb
IME, this part is normal. Many kids this age will even wake up a parent to tell them "I have to go potty" even when they can do it themselves. The parent says "then go" and the child does. I don't know why, lol! but I do believe it's normal. My almost 2 yo will come up to me and say "pay?" meaning he wants to go play w/his siblings in their room. WHY he asks me I have no clue, b/c the door is open etc., I just say "okay, go play" and he trots off.

This has been my experience *exactly*. I remember my DD asking me if she could go to the bathroom till she was 5+ years old. I told her over an over that she could just *go* without asking or telling me whenever she needed to. It finally sunk in.

Kristin

Susan - your DD sounds very much like my 1st and 3rd. (#3 is just turned 4 and is improving some).

We do homeschool now - but I remember calling every preschool in the area one day when I'd had it with my 1st (at about 3.5!).

These 2 of my kids are super active and very stubborn and prone to rebellion. Their main idea of fun is to make me crazy!

So - some practicle hints:

1. Keep them busy. Chores are a wonderful thing. It is amazing what a 3.5 yr old can do around the house. Whenever mine can't think of anything constructive and are following me around being generally annoying - they get a chore.

2. Maintain your authority. Don't give in to those screams or tantrums. Your method of discipline is really not very important, the key is to NEVER give them what they want when they have a tantrum. If you can, give them the opposite.

3. The timer - especially for meals. Children can generally finish a meal within about 30 minutes. Set it, let her know that she has till the timer goes off. When the timer goes off, cheerfully say "dinner is over" and clear her place. Do not spend the whole time reminding her that the timer is ticking!

I use the timer for cleanup chores too. And in my homechooling as well.

4. These kids seem to thrive on routine and mine enjoy having some scheduled "mommy time" where they really fill up their tanks so they don't have to be annoying to get my attention.

5. Make your rules clear, consice and consistant. Make your instructions a couple fo words.

HTH - Melinda
PS - it does get better. My 7 yr old is not nearly so annoying anymore!

I compleatly agree with Melinda above!

I have to say that this is so similar with what I did with my over-active 4 yr old, and it worked wonders! One amendment though... Alex and I have a movie night. Every Thursday (for the last three years) we eat dinner in front of a video and then make popcorn... we have even had the popcorn AS dinner, with COCO no less. (I feel like a rebel now... lol) This time, and the fact that he knows that it is coming, has been SO important with my high needs kid. Just him and me time... He used to mind if Cyan joined us, but now he likes sharing it with her. I think he just had to get used to the idea.

Alex was extreamly hard to deal with... he would whine and get into things he was not supposed to all the time just to get attention... (He did the potty thing too, I am guessing that is a phase... just try to put a smile on and tell them they can go. It only lasts a little while.) Alex will be 7 in two weeks and he is not nearly that annoying anymore. But I said to my friend one day (tounge in cheek) "I swear I could hit him really hard, and then kick him when he fell and not feel bad... till tomorrow." This was when my darling son at 4 1/2 had just put a PB&J in our VCR, and then told me he did it just so I would look at him. Grrrrrr.... (BTW I am a no spanking mama... so I never even got close... but I did say that... and my friend LHAO!)

Dishes... if she is anything like Alex she will love washing all the tupperwear you have, about four times... just fill up the sink, and let her at it.

Laundry... have her put the laundry in the dryer... it is a great way to steal ten minutes. (And most likely it will give her an excuse to climb on the washer!!!!! How fun!)

A huge bowl of water and a hand ful of mud along with a few impediments from the yard, and you have an afternoon! Just read a book and watch her make pie! lol... My kids both LOVE dirt.

For about a year, my son had a timer for EVERYTHING... no joke... the only thing he did with out it was go pop. If I gave that option, it put the ball in his court. And if you have a little power tripper like mine... it works wonderfully. :)

"The Easy Way", and "The Hard Way". All of the kids that I watch and both of mine know that when I say "you can do it the easy way, or the hard way." They are going to do it themselves with out a fit, or I am going to "help" them do it... and fit be damed. And if I give this choice I have a smile on my face the whole time.

"I WANT..." Alex comes into the kitchen... "I want juice" My responce? "Thats nice Alex." (Stunned look) "I said I want juice mom" "Good for you, honey." (Cunning look) "Mom, can I have juice?" "Yes Alex thank you for asking so nicely." Works everytime, and BTW, I still have to use it. ;)

Just yesterday I grabbed the biggest metal bowls I had and filled two of them with water. Then I put them on the back poarch, gave my 2 yr old a measuring cup and a basting brush. She painted the walls. I finished Harry Potter. :)

Love Val

Edited to fix spelling error.

i'll add mine too...

susan - your child is emme's twin LOL! and she asks me to feed her at lest one meal a day, AND i have to go to the potty WITH her at least 2 times a day - if i don't i'm sure she'll pee on the floor :rolleyes: i figure it'll pass.

i've read all the responses and my opinion (FWIW) is no "tough love" and no time outs. as long as you are clear about the boundaries i think it will pass. for my dd the punitive stuff makes things worse and then she starts lying to get out of it. mostly she just needs extra attention and so far our days are getting better.

i just feel that if you meet their needs early on then they will move on to the next "step" but if needs go unmet then that need will always be there.

i do my best to fill what i think her needs seem to be and keep my boundaries clear.

he acted the same way at 3. i am out of town, so i only skimmed responses... but i do totally agree that these types of children may be gifted. they need more structure and also more freedom to investigate things that they find interesting (even if it is only for a few seconds;peek: )

and you need to get a break. not sure how far away you are from pennsylvania, but maybe our two wild children would enjoy terrorizing together.

it is draining. i know it is. it is so draining to constantly answer, constantly help, constantly redirect... it tends to fry my brain some days. but then zz will tell me that someday he is going to marry me, or that he loves me more than the sky, or that they should have never made up the name streets because they should actually be called levels... or even the ever-so-fun 'are you trying to ruin my life?' they all make me smile.

you have quite a girl on her hands. it is much more difficult to keep spirited children involved and content.

:)
nope, you are NOT alone.
amity

My house is finally quiet and I've had a chance to read all the wonderful responses. Hugs to all of you! I am so sorry that we are all dealing with stress like this but it sure is good to know that I'm not alone! What great advice you mamas have! It is totally a power struggle with dd. If she gets bored she is hell on wheels in super-destructo mode.
Melinda, I'm getting a timer tomorrow, lol!
Tami, dd does the same walking in circles thing...a tight little circle around and around, usually twiddling her hair at the same time. I know she would profit greatly from a nap but refuses to take one so I think the circle walking is her way of calming down.
Elizabeth, I loved your ideas! And you are absolutely right about dh being a whole other issue. Ladies, he is a 13 yo trapped in a grown man's body. Tonight I tried to discuss how stressed I've been and how I needed his help. He finished his dinner, left the table and disappeared. I found him sitting on the floor in our bedroom going thru his baseball card collection and watching tv. Dd was still sitting at the dinner table, I had dishes to do and laundry to finish, etc. It went right over his head. When I explained the situation he took offense that I was suggesting he didn't help and went to the kitchen to yell at dd. Poor child, no wonder she doesn't want to spend any time with him. I swear dh requires more attention than dd sometimes. And has to be handled just as delicately. I end up always having to stroke his ego to keep him from pouting for 3 days and whatever problem I was having gets pushed to the side. I hate being unimportant, yk?
I'll definitely be doing some heavy reading here, even if I have to hide in the closet with a flashlight.
I'm so stressed out I feel like running away from home, lol! I think I'll go post a vent in the steamroom, try to get the rest of it out. I hate feeling useless and taken for granted.
Thanks again mamas!
Oh, and Cassie, are you trying to say that Jesus doesn't love the little chickens???

Originally posted by Kristin
This has been my experience *exactly*. I remember my DD asking me if she could go to the bathroom till she was 5+ years old. I told her over an over that she could just *go* without asking or telling me whenever she needed to. It finally sunk in.

Kristin

I think this is an intreguing thought, in that before we "potty trained" (learned or whatever the PC term is now a days) our children they had no problems peeing in their "pants" (diapers) heck they'd be standing right infront of you looking at you straight in the eye and squat and poop, or just grunt and poop, making those funny little faces.

I really do wonder why now they ask for permission to use the potty. They obviously know when they have to potty, as they hold themselves and such. I wonder what we have engrained in them that makes them ask to potty?!

Any ideas?! Anyone? :confused:

"She painted the porch. I read Harry Potter". LOL Val! You are so *real*. I wanna be your neighbor. I am going to chuckle over that one all morning. Smart Mama.

Laurie

I'm not sure how normal this all is, but it sure sounds like my 4 yr. old DS. His latest little 'drive mommy nuts' tactic is to make a noise and ask "What's that sound, mommy?" over & over & over again. I finally told him the other day that that *sound* was Mommy climbing the walls. He did not get the humor, but stopped asking for awhile... I thought it was funny. If I don't laugh sometimes I'll end up crying. Sorry, I don't have any advice just a little "I know what you're going through". Good luck ;)

I wholeheartedly agree with Luna's ideas...NAK....................................... ..my heart goes out to you. I do know that when I get frustrated with my dd (who is only 19mo) and she is frustrated-usually that means she needs attention. When I refocus on her in a positive way it works well for both of us. Good luck, mama

Originally posted by welshrabbit
Oh, and Cassie, are you trying to say that Jesus doesn't love the little chickens???

No Offense to any chickens or chicken lovers out there! I'm sure Jesus *DOES* love all the little chickens. Sorry if I may have offended you, Susan. ;)

Originally posted by slingnmom
I think this is an intreguing thought, in that before we "potty trained" (learned or whatever the PC term is now a days) our children they had no problems peeing in their "pants" (diapers) heck they'd be standing right infront of you looking at you straight in the eye and squat and poop, or just grunt and poop, making those funny little faces.

I really do wonder why now they ask for permission to use the potty. They obviously know when they have to potty, as they hold themselves and such. I wonder what we have engrained in them that makes them ask to potty?!

Any ideas?! Anyone? :confused:

Oh this makes perfect sense to me. I know the whole time I'm potty training, or even priming someone for potty training, I say, "Tell Mommy if you need to go potty!" And then it's a big hairy deal when they actually do go. We make such a celebration over it. When the kid is finally potty trained, they have heard "Tell Mommy when you need to go to the bathroom." 5, 239 times, and are used to being heavily praised for it. No wonder they think they oughta let us know. They're probably surprised we're not excited about it any more. ;)

Originally posted by grtlyblesd
Oh this makes perfect sense to me. I know the whole time I'm potty training, or even priming someone for potty training, I say, "Tell Mommy if you need to go potty!" And then it's a big hairy deal when they actually do go. We make such a celebration over it. When the kid is finally potty trained, they have heard "Tell Mommy when you need to go to the bathroom." 5, 239 times, and are used to being heavily praised for it. No wonder they think they oughta let us know. They're probably surprised we're not excited about it any more.

OMG Shecki, you are absolutely right! I never stopped to consider this. Dd is only doing what I've told her to do a thousand times. ACK!!! :o She must be so confused when I get short with her. Thank you so much for pointing this out!

Cassie, you are such a goof! You didn't ruffle my feathers! :chick: (Do I have egg on my face? :hatch: )

Originally posted by grtlyblesd
Oh this makes perfect sense to me. I know the whole time I'm potty training, or even priming someone for potty training, I say, "Tell Mommy if you need to go potty!" And then it's a big hairy deal when they actually do go. We make such a celebration over it. When the kid is finally potty trained, they have heard "Tell Mommy when you need to go to the bathroom." 5, 239 times, and are used to being heavily praised for it. No wonder they think they oughta let us know. They're probably surprised we're not excited about it any more. ;)

What an EXCELLENT point! i never thought about it that way!!! Thanks for shedding that light for me! lol Now when Gage is doing this (if he EVER potty trains EVER) i'll know this is why! lol

Originally posted by grtlyblesd
Oh this makes perfect sense to me. I know the whole time I'm potty training, or even priming someone for potty training, I say, "Tell Mommy if you need to go potty!" And then it's a big hairy deal when they actually do go. We make such a celebration over it. When the kid is finally potty trained, they have heard "Tell Mommy when you need to go to the bathroom." 5, 239 times, and are used to being heavily praised for it. No wonder they think they oughta let us know. They're probably surprised we're not excited about it any more. ;)

:thumbsup:

I think you hit the nail on the head with that answer!

My mommy brain is so fried I couldn't think of any reason. Glad to know someone's brain works better than mine does. LOL

WTG!!!
Stephanie M

So much has been said here, but I'll add a few more thoughts to the mix. . .

I waver back and forth on weather this kind of stuff is normal, or the result of too permissive parenting (like I did with my eldest) or too strict parenting (um, like I did with my middle. . . ) or just genetics. But I was sure I couldn't homeschool my 5.5 year old when she was 3.5. Know what? She's the poster child for homeschooling. That of course makes it harder for me with my current 3.5 year old, because it really is true that you forget the hard times as they grow. So, on most days, when I'm up to my elbows in cheerios that my dd decided to drop one by one on the floor to see if the cat will eat, I forget that her sister did a very similar thing, b/c is now capable of making her *own* cheerios and loading the dishwasher after breakfast to boot. Not that *she's* an angel, mind you, she's developing quite a snarkey attitude, but that's a different post. . .

Have you tried humor? My friend explained to her dd over and over that she was old enough to be capable of handling her potty routine by herself, but still the girl would come and say "I need to go potty!" One day while we were at her house, her mom looked right back at her and matched her tone exactly and said "do I look like the potty?" The girl broke in to a fit of giggles. From what I understand, it became a big joke, but after a few days when the joke wore off she stopped telling her mom. . .

About the screaming in the face thing. . . My middle dd does things like this. It used to really bother me and I reacted by being pretty strict. . . until I realized that there was a lot of anger built up in that tiny little body and she was expressing that, albeit inappropriately. It takes a lot for me not to react in anger, but I now (try to)stay calm and say "It hurts my feelings and makes me feel unsafe when you scream so close to me. Can you think of words to help me understand how you are feeling?" It's not a cure all, but at least she is learning that words are a more socially acceptable way to show emotions. . .

I really have to say that the "terrible" twos are nothing compared to the threes. . . The twos seem so much more cut and dried to me. . . Child is frustrated, child screams, child stops screaming after a while, end of episode. The threes are so complex. . .

This is a rich thread and I've enjoyed reading through it a couple of times, and glad it popped back up.

I have one of those "spirited children" as well. She is almost five and I can honestly say things have calmed down a lot, though we just went through a little difficult period with back talk (a sort of "getting-ready-for-kindergarten" reach for independence). I'm a very emotional responder, and it's taken me a while to learn how to react or not to react to her drama...my tendency is to react with more drama which just fuels her even more.

Structure has helped so much here, and a firm yet gentle and loving, respectful setting of limits for her. I love Val's suggestions. Katie loves all that stuff --- making mud, painting the house with water :), play dough, doing dishes (oh my, that is her favorite!). She does so much better when an activity like that is in the day, or even several strung together. She *loves* helping to pick up at night (even if sometimes she complains ;)) and she loves having a set bedtime and routine.

And preschool was key. She started when she was turning four and she really loves it and can't wait to start kindy (and here, I thought I was homeschooling my kids!). She's very active and social and I think was going bonkers home all day when Jacob was little, and especially when he was sick.

Ooh, and I also love Val's suggestion for one on one, special time. Katie seems to thrive on this.

Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka is so good....also anything by Naomi Aldort, she's written a bunch of articles and has some great tapes available, too. Both look at what are the underlying needs with this behavior, how can I meet them.

I like what Amity said..."they need more structure, and more freedom." I think that is so true. There can be both! A little understanding of their greater intensity, and freedom for them to healthily express frustration, anger, boredom, etc, and freedom to explore their passions and creative thoughts. And then a nice, rhythmical structure to the day and week so they know what they can expect.

Just one more teeny thing: sugar. Watching sugar consumption has really, really, really evened out Katie's moods. We're not talking massive amounts either...but the occasional sweet snack can even throw her off-kilter. She seems to be pretty sensitive to food dyes as well, esp red 40. We generally avoid the stuff but whoa, I can tell if she's drank a "juice" with it in it within 10 minutes.

Just one more teeny thing: sugar. Watching sugar consumption has really, really, really evened out Katie's moods. We're not talking massive amounts either...but the occasional sweet snack can even throw her off-kilter. She seems to be pretty sensitive to food dyes as well, esp red 40. We generally avoid the stuff but whoa, I can tell if she's drank a "juice" with it in it within 10 minutes.

This is a GREAT point. After Alex used to get even a minor sugar high, like eat a couple peices of watermelon, he would have about 4 hours of melt down afterwards... This always happened after a trip to his bio dads too. I don't know if it was the pressure, or just the fact that he ate sugar all weekend, but he would flip out on us, just about every other monday. Sugar makes a HUGE difference with some kids.

He was not sesntive to the dyes, but Cyan... red 40 makes her shake and she will laugh for an hour for no reason. I have eliminated most of that stuff from the house... which comically enough, is now really easy to do. They even have Cheetos Puffs that have no dyes in them. lol... (which of course I never buy... riiiiiiight... :p )

Alex has really grown out of that... but one thing that I have added to our diet as much as possible has been Flax seed and Flax oil. Alex is border-line ADHD, and this seems to take the edge of my emotional rollercoster I have for a son, and what is funny is that he knows it. On the days when I forget to make a shake with Flax oil, or give him flax before he goes to school, he reminds me that he may feel "crazy" with out it. Smart kid.

With my experience with Alex, it was easy to tell when we would have good days or not. And it always started with me. If I woke in a good mood, and came down stairs with a Blue Clue's video and colored on the floor with him, even for 15 minutes... we would almost always have a good day. Even if he was not in a good mood... by the end of that 15 min he was smiling. For Alex, at 3 and 4 he was still an extention of me and my body. And what I started was kept going by him. It was SO hard somedays to wake with a smile. OMG, SO hard... but I knew that if I did, I would not deal with hell toddler later.

"She painted the porch. I read Harry Potter". LOL Val! You are so *real*. I wanna be your neighbor. I am going to chuckle over that one all morning. Smart Mama.

LMAO! Thank you, Laurie... (((((

Love Val

I started rereading Raising Your Spirited Child. I had forgotten so much of it. So, I discovered that dd is an EXTROVERT to the nth degree and I'm an introvert who needs quiet alone time to regroup. We are like Oil and water. So we've reached a few compromises and haven't had any serious meltdowns so far. When I need quiet time I just need to pull a kitchen chair over to the sink, put some water and soap bubbles in it, and let dd "wash" some dishes. It was blissfully quiet for a long time and she was totally engaged in the play. (Bless the mama who suggested she wash the tupperware. :D) She used to like to dust but recently told me it was "mommy's work" and didn't want to do it anymore. :rolleyes:
Dinnertime has been much easier since we started "timing" it. :thumbsup: I think our only problem now is dh. He still pays more attention to the tv than he does dd, even when he's playing trains with her he's watching tv. Sometimes she'll get up and stand with her back against the tv screen so he'll have to look at her but he only yells at her to get out of the way. It's very sad. There's nothing I can do about that except call her to me and hug her and play with her in another room.
I definitely need to have her around other kids more often, too. Guess we'll be spending alot of time at the gym. And I've decided to enroll her in some activities this fall like iceskating lessons.
I really think we are on the road to a better relationship.
Thanks mamas!

I am really glad you liked the tupperwear idea. It worked well for me too. :) Alex and I are also like apples and oranges... and I need to re-evaluate what is working or not with him about every 6 months or so... or we have total household meltdown. And boy is that hard to get out of sometimes.

I am dealing with a similarly hard situation with someone I can not control being mean to my son, and I know it is one of the hardest things a mama can face. My son gets treated like crap when he is visiting his bio-dad (like he is right now), he gets treated like crap and they feed him crap (Mountain Dew and Coke at 6 yrs old, and he saw the Hulk and then they made him sleep in his room alone anyway...) I just wanted to pick him up and take him home. He doesn't even know how crappy they are... he has no idea that when my ex calls him "face" it is short for "$hit face"... and more.

Mostly I have no advice in this area... I am trying not to say anything that will make mine and my ex relationship more acumonious, but at the same time, half the time I want to scream "WHO IS THE KID HERE!!!!!!?!!!!!!!!" If you get any great ideas on how to deal with this... would you pass them on to me? ;)

So {{{hugs}}}. I am glad everything is getting easier with your dd. I am sure it takes a lot of work right now... but the more ideas you have in your mental arsinal the better it will be.

You are a great mom.

Love Val

Kaya just got thru that stage....it does pass. Right now I take care of a three year old and I am going thru the stage all over again and he isn't even mine! LOL

HUGS! You're not alone!