amitymamaThe Attachment Parenting Community

Daisy · 05-15-2006, 07:26 PM

James is going to be 3 in late August, but he is cognitively already there. I thought this forum might be better than the 0-2, because I feel we are out of that range. We are having some real issues and I have yet to figure out how to handle them. J is our first child. Bear with my novel.......if you read all of it, bless you.....and I hope you have some advice. ha ha

Some background on James. He has always been an 'early' developer of sorts. His speech is well above the three year old level. He uses complex sentences and is extremely verbal. He has just very recently 'weaned' ......I'm not actually considering him fully weaned, as he does ask occasionally to have "nummies", but hugging them seems to fill the void, so he hasn't actually nursed in over a week. He has never been on a 'schedule'. He naps when he is tired, goes to bed when he is tired and wakes when he is rested, eats when he is hungry (within reason)....ykwim? We don't spank. It just isn't an option, so we use other forms of discipline, such as the 'thinking chair', taking away toys/books/items of 'value' and talking, talking, talking about what is going on. Here is where my problem lies.....He seems to have decided that no form of discipline is effective.

J has been throwing these 'tantrums/meltdowns' that are mindblowing! We just weathered one that was about 30-45 minutes. I had asked him to pick up his toys in the living area, which we actually do have a 'schedule' for.....everyday at 4pm we pick up because Daddy is coming home and it is not nice to make Daddy step over his mess. So, James says to me "NO! I don't want to pick up my toys!" To which I said, "Ok, you know that if you don't pick them up, they are put in restriction" (meaning put away for a day or two........J knows this term quite well) He said back to me "Go ahead, you can throw them in the trash!" Well, I wasn't sure what to do.......so I scooped everything up into a basket and said "I am not throwing away your toys, they are going in restriction." To which he said "I will get them back when I say I am sorry" (Now, this was not a question, this was a 'hand on the hip' teenager type statement, with attitude.) So, I said "No, you will have to show that you are sorry." That started the tantrum. So, I took the toys and put them away (on the top of the bunk bed where he doesn't have access) and he screamed and yelled at me for quite some time. Dh came home.....asks what is going on........I tell him.........J tells him that "Mommy mowed down my cars" (???) So, dh takes J into his room and talks with him for a minute and J starts screaming at him. So, he was then left in his room to 'cool down' He screamed and yelled at us in his room for the next 30 minutes or so. I went in about every 10 minutes to see if he was ready to talk, but he wasn't. So I left him until he was done. I then tried to talk to him and he just looked away and wouldn't listen to me. I gave up. WHAT AM I DOING WRONG?????

I was talking to dh and saying 'what has happened in the last month to make him SO upset' and dh says it has been slowly creeping up on me. Maybe he is right. J has always been a very determined child....he is meticulous about 'order' and knows exactly what he wants and, for the most part, he gets it. I love that J is precocious. He is so smart and he is such fun when he is in a good mood, but lately, those 'good' moods are over-run with ill moods! He is smart-mouthed and pushs the limits constantly. I realize that he is trying to vie for his 'spot' in the family and trying to assert his independence, but I feel like he is going to the extreme! Maybe it is just my inexperience. I am not even sure what kind of advice I am asking for. I just need to figure out how to help him get his point across gently, rather than all this drama. I worry that if I don't nip this in the bud now, that he is going to really be a handful soon.

Daisy · 05-15-2006, 08:12 PM

Ok, after poking around a bit, it looks like I will be checking "Happiest Toddler on the Block" out of the library tomorrow. I am still open to any suggestions! It seems today it was fatigue that set off the tantrum, because he has now collapsed on the couch. I'm not sure though, it could have been the tantrum that wiped him out!

MGray · 05-15-2006, 08:14 PM

Well, why do you feel you've done something wrong just because he had a hissy fit for a long time?

It sounds like you handled it well. You enforced your known rules with your known consequence. You didn't let his fit change your consequences. Sometimes its just like this.

For me, I don't spend much time talking about it all. The kids know the rules and I enforce the consequences. If they want to have a big old fit, fine - but I'm not gonna listen to it. Scream all you want, I'm not gonna change my mind. And when my kids are done with the fit, they come and apologize and we hug and its over.

A suggestion with the toys on restriction thing - perhaps he needs to do chores to earn back one toy at a time?

My advice is to be completely consistant with enforcing your rules. Don't let tantrums disuade you. Don't feel that just because your kid is throwing a fit you've done something wrong. Don't feel that its part of your job to have them be happy all the time.

His behavior is very normal for 2 and 3. Pushing the limits is very, very normal. Its your job to make it very clear that the limits are the limits no matter how hard he pushes. Learning this will make him more secure. Being consistant in your rules and consequences lets him know that your no is no and your yes is yes and you can be depended upon.

Don't be fooled by his high verbal ability - he is still just little and just because he can communicate in many words and complex vocabulary does not mean he can grasp abstract ideas. Keep your talks concrete and clear. I'm a big believer in not talking things to death, simple 'you must obey me' or 'you may not talk to me that way' type of sentances to get your point across.

Daisy · 05-15-2006, 08:29 PM

I don't know why I feel lately that I am doing something wrong. It really isn't his tantrums, I think, but how I feel when he is having them.

Thank you for the encouragement. Maybe that is all I need

My logical mind knows that he is not going to turn into some raging lunatic, but my emotional mind.......sometimes wonders! ha ha ha

I looove the chore/good deed idea for 'earning' his toys back. I probably do talk things to death. I know dh thinks I do. I will try to be more direct and to the point without lengthy explainations.

Thank you again!

Lori_Eustis · 05-15-2006, 08:49 PM

Daisy,

My oldest daughter (now 6.5) sounds very similar to your little guy -- almost too smart for their own good <grin>!

I just wanted to add that my daughter *still* has major meltdowns about once a month -- generally precipitated by something minor. I think for her it is an emotional release, to reset her stress/tension levels. I generally send her to her room to scream and cry for about 15-30 min, and then when she starts to settle down, I go in and comfort her and we talk about it. She has told me that she feels much better after she has these, so I just let her vent.....

I don't know if this helps, but some kids just need to "decompress" from all the busy-ness and activity of their lives, I think.

Lori

starkl · 05-15-2006, 09:43 PM

Sounds to me like you're doing everything right! At 2.5, consistency is the key. It sounds like we handled things the same way that you are.
Actions and consequences were simple because no matter how verbal Duncan was, I needed to remember that emotionally he was still little. I hated seeing him tantrum but I remember that Dr. Sears said that as long as they were safe and not hurting themselves then they were totally okay to have their tantrum for as long as they needed to. Then when he was all done, he'd come for a cuddle and we might talk about it or we might just forget it. If he asked for his toy back I'd tell him no, and why he couldn't. That might illicit another tantrum, or it might not, just depended on the day.

I think you're doing a great job. It'll settle down, it just takes time.

BlueRoseMama · 05-15-2006, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daisy

WHAT AM I DOING WRONG?????

Absolutly nothing. One of my biggest sayings I used for Alex at this age was "Here honey. Let me move you onto the carpet so you can throw your fit and not hit your head." Boys need to be energetic about finding their boundries. I wish I could say that these phases get easier, but here I am, with an almost 10 year old and he is still going through them every now and again. Consistancy is all you can do, and in that situation you were right on the money. You let him know what you were going to do if he did not comply and you did it. You didn't reward the fit by giving in... even a little bit. By the end it isn't about the toys for him, it is about power. And you didn't give that over. You kept it. I think all you need is some reasureance that you are in the right and that this is just a phase. Having been there numerous times with my spirited boy, I can tell you you did the right thing. Great job!

Oh and Don and I have a saying in this house when the kids do something really irksome that shows their colors... "We asked for intellegent and healthy children... and god damit, we got them."

Have faith... I am sure whatever books you check out for gentle parenting of a spirited child will have some great tips on tools to use, and also quite a bit of reasureance that you have been doing the right thing all along.

Val

MotherMoon · 05-15-2006, 10:11 PM

My 9 y/o daughter is a lot like your son -- very verbal (spoke at 4 months), hitting milestones way early. It is hard for them. Some parts of them arent' ready. But, no matter their precociousness, they are still young and have a hard time dealing with emotions, especially anger. It is very important to help them to understand their emotions are natural and ok. You need to help him learn appropriate ways to express those emotions. Since Beth is so verbal, that has been easy. I can't count the number of times I have heard "I am soo mad at you!" Lately, as she gets close to those teen years, she has started yelling it to make a point. I feel like she is three again and we are discussing appropriate ways to show that emotion. Yelling is not appropriate. He needs to know it is ok to show he is sad too at you putting toys on restriction. Children can be very scared of their emotions. They need to know they are ok, natural but he is loved no matter what. Also, from my experience, talking during a time like this gets no where. You can talk later. Even the youngest child can relate to a past event well enough to talk through it with you when you both are calm.

Have you read Unconditional Parenting? Another great one as they age is Hold On To Your Kids. I rely heavily on both these.

Daisy · 05-15-2006, 10:38 PM

Thanks so much everyone! I feel alot better knowing that I am not alone in my feelings. I am also thrilled that everyone thinks I am doing the right things. I feel like I am (most of the time), but sometimes that doubt creeps in and makes me wonder!

I knew if I posted about it, I would get some help.

heythereheather · 05-15-2006, 10:50 PM

From 2.5 to 4 was really hard in Erik's life. I do see now that his development was so incongruous, it was just tough. I would imagine you're going through the same.

I thought you handled it fine. The only thing I do differently is that taking away toys isn't very powerful to Erik. So we clean up right before dinner, and he knows that before he eats dinner, he has to have the toys cleand up. It allows him to self-pace more, and it gets done. Sometimes not without whining, but it gets done.

Oh, and if I did take away something, it's for a set period, not until he says he's sorry. I'm not sure what you normally do, but I do not like setting up "I'm sorry" as something forced. And having to "show" it can be very subjective. More often we ask Erik to take a break in his room if he's being inappropriate with toys (throwing), but if I were to take one away, it would either be for 5 minutes, or until tomorrow, just depends.

I really like Unconditional Parenting, you'd probably really like it, too.

Daisy · 05-15-2006, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heythereheather

Oh, and if I did take away something, it's for a set period, not until he says he's sorry. I'm not sure what you normally do, but I do not like setting up "I'm sorry" as something forced. And having to "show" it can be very subjective. More often we ask Erik to take a break in his room if he's being inappropriate with toys (throwing), but if I were to take one away, it would either be for 5 minutes, or until tomorrow, just depends.

Oh no, we never insist on a sorry. I don't know where he came up with that one.......he is all the time saying stuff that make us pause and think "where did that come from". He knows the rule is that if toys are put on restriction, they are gone for the rest of the day. They are returned in the morning, after breakfast and clean up. 5 minutes would never work for him. I do agree that telling him to 'show' he was sorry was not the right thing to say, I was just exasperated at that point and honestly was taken aback that he was talking so harshly to me.

I am definately going to be picking up some books tomorrow though! I feel like, if nothing else, I just need a refresher and a little reassurance that everything we are going through is 'normal'.

Linda · 05-15-2006, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starkl

Sounds to me like you're doing everything right! At 2.5, consistency is the key. It sounds like we handled things the same way that you are.
Actions and consequences were simple because no matter how verbal Duncan was, I needed to remember that emotionally he was still little. I hated seeing him tantrum but I remember that Dr. Sears said that as long as they were safe and not hurting themselves then they were totally okay to have their tantrum for as long as they needed to. Then when he was all done, he'd come for a cuddle and we might talk about it or we might just forget it. If he asked for his toy back I'd tell him no, and why he couldn't. That might illicit another tantrum, or it might not, just depended on the day.

I think you're doing a great job. It'll settle down, it just takes time.

ITA~not that Duncan is mine~lol!
It does not matter how verbal, intelligent or advanced they are, your little is still 2.5yo.

One thing I might try with your son, is giving him a 10 minute warning before 4 pm. Set a kitchen timer that he can hear and see and then when it rings he will know what to expect. You can remind him in a fun, sweet way when the timer goes off that 'OK, time to put the toys away, just like we do *every* day...!" And you can try and make it fun for him. Maybe make a game out of it. Can you find all the balls? yellow toys? cars? Also, can he keep *a* toy out or *some* toys out and not put all of them away? Something that is important to him that particular day~lol!

It is nothing you have done. Wouldn't it be great if we had all the tricks in our bags for each kids? It is so hard.

juliebelle · 05-15-2006, 11:40 PM

i don't have the energy to type up a lot...but i will mention that savannah will be 3 at the end of the month and just in the last few weeks she has needed a nap almost every day. if i rock her for a few minutes she will fall asleep. this after giving up her nap for a few months. i wonder if it's a growth spurt type of thing. just a thought that maybe he is going through something similar.

Daisy · 05-16-2006, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juliebelle

i don't have the energy to type up a lot...but i will mention that savannah will be 3 at the end of the month and just in the last few weeks she has needed a nap almost every day. if i rock her for a few minutes she will fall asleep. this after giving up her nap for a few months. i wonder if it's a growth spurt type of thing. just a thought that maybe he is going through something similar.

I think you are SO right! I think this is a HUGE part of our current problem. He is resisting napping with a vengence. I made the mistake (that EVERYONE warned me about) of letting him nurse himself to sleep. He has done it from day one. I mean, he falls asleep in the car and whatnot, but at home......he had to have nummies to fall asleep. I think that has really screwed up his ability to soothe himself to sleep. He has been fighting the naps for months, but the last week has been super hard. I tried today waking him early so that he would want to nap, but he only had a 30 minute one in the car on the way home from the market.

Tomorrow is a new day. I got some great advice and I plan on utilizing it as much as possible. Thank you so much ladies......Some days I don't think I would make it without this place!!!

juliebelle · 05-16-2006, 12:49 AM

have you thought about putting on a movie and rocking him? or letting him lay on the sofa...that puts savannah right out after about 5 minutes if she's tired.