Winnie just turned 5. She's never been able to poop on the potty. She doesn't go in her pants either. She will hold it and hold it until we force her to go finally. We've tried everything we have thought of for 2+ years and nothing makes a bit of difference. The poop holding affects her mood, her health, and the family dynamic. We know when she needs to go really bad when she's the crankiest and snottiest she can be. She snaps at everyone, won't do anything but sit and color (because if she stands up she feels the sensation and she won't let that happen). Not only is she not getting better, she's gotten worse. Her new thing is to not eat because "when I eat it makes poop and I don't want to poop". It's a real mental illness at this point, and it needs to be treated. Does anyone have any words of wisdom? Have you been through anything like this before? Can you offer me guidance or support? Am I missing something here? We've ruled out any physical reasons for this behavior. Her poop is not hard or dry. It does not appear to be painful for her to go. It is compacted but on the rare few occasions she's gone twice in a short amount of time it hasn't been, so it's likely just compacted due to backing up in her system because she won't allow it to come out. We've considered medications, but I refuse to use anything like that unless it is in conjunction with therapy or some sort of counseling. I don't think the medications and fiber therapies will do any good if we don't address the underlying issue, and I can't figure out what that is.
Blah. I hate doing this, lol. I just want a happy, healthy, sweet little girl. What did I do wrong to make her like this? I feel so guilty.
Gwen I am so sorry you are going through this. But I think you are on the right track, it sounds like she does need to go to some type of therapy. Did anything happen in her past that had to do with going poop? For instance, when I was four I went to the bathroom with my friend in the bathroom with me and I got in trouble for it. After that I thought having a bowl movement was wrong. I stopped going in any public place, school, church, friends houses, etc. If I had to go I would wait until I was alone at home.
So I was wondering if she heard someone talking about pooping at home or at a friends that made her worry about it. I don't know, just an idea. I think it would be a good idea to talk to her about her concerns.
I don't think this would be considered an eating disorder. You need to see a Doctor. There is so much more they can do besides medication.
Hope it gets figured out soon
We've seen a pediatric Gastro-enterologist. They've evaluated her thoroughly, done tests, done ultrasounds, everything. They talked with us about some sort of fiber therapy, but everything we've talked about has either side effects or is habit forming. The only one that isn't habit forming is just fiber therapy. If she were constipated, I would consider it, but she's not. They are at a loss, and have suggested that it is behavioral. These are the cream of the crop of doctors, at one of the top hospitals.
My middle child- Emma- has had some issues that made me realize I needed to utilize professional services for her. My advice if you are planning on using the mental health experts is to ask around and find a great child psychiatrist and then they can help to diagnose her and recommend a therapist that would fit the situation and is their "specialty". When I asked around, I made sure to ask people I knew in the mental health field for recommendations and I did tell them that I wanted medication as a last and final resort only. I found the whole experience very beneficial and, in our situation, I have the skills now to help Emma cope with her unique issues. It was not an inexpensive journey, but we had insurance that helped to cover the bulk of it.
Years ago, a friend of mine adopted some children who had abuse issues and they had the same type of problems you described. It seemed to get worse as they got older. I wonder if it is a control type issue or if something sparked it happening. I am not suggesting she was abused, just that maybe something stressful sparked it or somehow she wants control of something. Just ignore me if you want, just thinking and typing at the same time. I would highly recommend getting help now instead of waiting. Just make sure you get the right kind of help and if it does not feel right to you, find someone else. You know best for your child!
Take Care, Christine
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Christine, Veggie Mom to homelearners Abigail, 10/95 Emma, 5/99 and Ingrid 11/01
Married to Rich since 9/92
When our ds had withholding issues, our doc suggested daily mineral oil. It makes the poop slippery to the point she won't be able to hold it in. So it forces her to have to get used to pooping. Using the mineral oil daily gets her poop moving faster through her system, so it should be softer when she goes, and eventually she'll realize that she can poop without pain. That should help with the mental images she has of pooping. Then, you can slowly withdraw the mineral oil to every couple of days, then weekly, and then stop it all together.
We mixed our mineral oil into a small milkshake that ds would have each night. He enjoyed the treat and didn't even have a clue that there was medicine in there to help him poop.
In addition to that, you need to increase her fluids. Water, juice, whatever it takes to get her drinking more. Get her a special sippy cup and keep it full of water or juice. Let her take it wherever she goes, and if it's getting low, fill it up. Then also increase her fiber. Use whole wheat flour, bran cereals, homeade bran muffins, oatmeal, refried beans, vegetable, whatever you can get her to eat that is full of fiber. But increasing your fluids is extremely important when you are increasing your fiber, so make sure she's drinking.
Where are you located? In Salt lake city, utah there is a Gastrointestinal clinic that works with these kinds of issues. What you are describing is a huge, huge deal. I know that you are aware of this or you wouldn't be asking for input. I am an RN and I think the Dr you went to was not doing his/her job. Of course this has behavioral parts to it--we are whole beings with a mind soul and body nothing is just one piece. Please find a clinic or a health care practitioner that works with these kind of issues. This is terribly hard for your daughter and for you. However, you need to get some assistance before she gets much older because this can turn into a lifelong problem. I had a patient (on a maternity ward) once whose whole ife had been affected by this kind of issue. I cried for her because it had hurt a lot of her life. I would be happy to contact our clinic to get some info for you. feel free to PM me. Huggs and good thoughts for you and your daughter. Sarah
One of my twins had something similar to this. The doctor called it encopresis. Josh held it in and held it in. We found out that it is a control issue. Not much helped for a while. We tried enemas and also something called Miralax. Finally he figured out it was better to go and he stopped acting cranky.
(((hugs)))
Steph
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Steph, mom to Ben, Josh, and Sam
An occupational therapist who specializes in feeding disorders and motility issues might be able to help. Cassie has chronic encopresis, and even though hers had a medical explaination, I know how hard it is to deal with half your life revolving around someone else's toileting habits. ::
Per our son's surgeon AND his very very very homeopathic ped, this is typical behavior. They've both warned us that it will happen with both our kids, and it has nothing to do with DS's condition (Hirschsprung's Disease).
There IS something that is triggering this behavior. You need to find the trigger. DS started in the first time when he had the flu and he pooped soooo much that his butt hurt. He didn't want to poop for a LOOOONG time after that.
Both doctors said that it's most prominent in girls, and that is has everything to do with it hurting to poop even once in toddlerhood or it being the one thing that a child has nearly complete control over.
It really might be time to get a referral to a child psychologist if it's to the point that she's not eating and has told you that it's b/c it makes her poop.
To me, it sounds like a control thing. The only other thing I can think is that maybe it's time for her to make more of her own decisions - choosing her own clothes 99% of the time, giving her some serious choices to make on her own about meals, activities, or something else that is usually YOUR decision.
Oh, and I am totally with you on the not wanting to use medications. This really sounds to me to be a control thing. It's really one thing she's got control over. It might have been triggered by it hurting to poop just once. If my DS tells me that it hurts to poop, I put preparation H on his butt. It seems to help him feel better, and he'll poop happily for a while after that. If he has the runs, which does happen often for him, it does make him sore, so the Prep H is nice and it's not a medication.
I'd worry about using mineral oil every day b/c it's pretty nasty going down and that could trigger other emotional issues, kwim? Forcing the issue about the poop could cause even more distress.
Good Luck!
HTH and Hugs!
__________________ Katie,
Wife to Matt my knight, Mom to Zachary my c/s baby and Lorelei my UBAC baby
Making the decision to have a child - it's momentous. It is to decide forever to have your heart go walking around outside your body.
-- Elizabeth Stone
Last edited by ZandLsMom : 10-16-2005 at 06:31 PM.
Did you ask her why she doesnt like poop? Does it hurt her to go or does she think it is gross or does it scare her in some way? How did you handle toilet training initially?
I know you probably know the basics of Freudian psychology so I wont bore you with all that and I dont really subscribe to Freud as I think there is way more to the human experience than what he suggests. But I do feel many of his ideas about attachment in infancy and focus on the importance of early experiences is right on.
In particular he talk about toileting being that time at which the child first has to conform to adult societal standards. It is kind of a push-pull between our ID (basic drives to get what we want) and the SUPEREGO (the internalized rules of family/society), and the EGO is the mediator, so to speak, of these two forces.
The EGO is kind of who we are or who we present to the world and many modern ego psycologists talk about increasing EGO functioning and giving the person more power to control their life as the goal of therapy.
At any rate, an imbalance between the ID, SUPEREGO and EGO can cause anxiety and lead to problems. Although these are of course abstract constructs of how a person's psychological process unfolds, I do agree with him that toileting is a pretty pivitol time in a child's life. But I don't think that means we should not intervene when things arent going well. I think we have as parents, in recent years, been so warned against interfering too much or being too controlling for fear of scarring our kids' psyches for life, that maybe we have erred too far on the side of letting the child be in total control.
My last two kids were 3 and 3.5 when they potty trained. Emma just didnt want to let go of those diapers because she was a middle child and her special needs baby brother got all the attention and she thought being a baby was where it was at. I was DESPERATE to get her out of dipes, so I bribed her with a doll she had been wanting. I bought it, put it up and said if you go on the toilet for a WEEK with no accidents you can have it.
She did it (truly not one accident in bed or otherwise) except she wouldnt poop on the toilet. She got one dipe I think during that week and sat on it to poop, then cleaned herself up and held it the rest of the time. After the week was up, I said you did great but you still have to poop at least once on the potty. I could not coach her through it. She was terrified of that sensation of letting her bowels relax over the potty. I think she felt like her guts would come out or something. Finally, dh went in there and coached her through it somehow (without shame or anger, just coaching her through). And after that we never had anymore problems.
You may have tried all this type of thing but I just thought I would suggest that maybe you should try a daily potty time (maybe combined with the mineral oil shake idea) where she needs to stay there for 10 minutes and have special books or toys she can look at/play with while sitting there, like a really cool sticker book or something. Or stay with her and talk her through it. (Although I realize this could be seen as controlling).
Maybe try explaining how it is not good for her body to only go once a week or whatever it is and that she really needs to let it out at least every other day or it is not good for her body. Have a reward chart for every poop and do some really fun activities when she makes a certain goal.
Maybe get the book EVERYONE POOPS and read it to her often. Take her to the zoo and let her see all the animals pooping. We went today and while we were in the petting zoo area, my ds was laughing at the little goat turds flying out of their butts like a machine gun.
So how often does she poop? Do you have a hospital clean home or talk about things being gross or disgusting often? I am not trying to suggest you do but just trying to dig deep and figure out anything that could be influencing her aversion.
The not wanting to eat thing is really troubling mama, and I agree I would ask around and find a good therapist quickly. However, I also feel her bodily function is as important as the mental side and if you have to get a little more forceful with saying I am the parent and your body needs to do this so we will sit on the pot for as long as it takes for a few mornings to break through this problem, then I would consider that as well. If she is grasping for attention or control in life, then give her lots in other areas. ust my .02 and hope I didnt offend. I am concerned for your dd is all.
Thank you everyone for your input. The list of things we've tried is very long. We've done everything from completely ignoring it for weeks (she regularly will hold it for 3 weeks or more), to sitting for 15 minutes after every meal, to buying the toy and saying she could have it after pooping 5 times. She gets to the point eventually when she CAN'T hold it any more, but it just starts the whole process over again. This has been happening for more than 2 years. Initially we took the "she'll grow out of it" advice (after ruling out major physical reasons). I can't think of anything really specific that would have triggered this, but it could have been something I wasn't aware of. We aren't clean freaks (omg, I wish we were, lol) so there isn't a ton of that sort of talk happening. We have the book "Everybody Poops" and read it often. We watched Oprah together a few weeks ago when she was talking about bodily functions, lol. She was fascinated, but it didn't make any difference in the long run. She's on day 14 today. She's whiney, cranky, and hasn't eaten anything substantial today. I'm not worried about her starving, but she's connected eating with pooping, and as a survivor of an eating disorder, that big old red flag went way up, lol. I'm going to get her in for another thorough eval by a GE, and request a specialist in dealing with this specific issue. Here's to hoping that simply making the appointment does the trick, lol.
Gwen, what does Winnie say about it? Does she say it hurts? Does she say she just doesn't like it?
Initially, you may think this is unrelated but - I was talking to my nurse the other day about bowel/intestinal issues after the surgery I had in December and she reassured me that you can go a whole week without pooping, even if you've never had any surgery, and you can be ok. It all has to do with the amount of food you are eatting and the habits of your body. One thing she suggested for constipation, which I know she doesn't have, is exercise and walking. Maybe if you took her on a nightly walk she would get to the place where she couldn't hold it after a while? When she does poop, where does she do it? Maybe you could put a pull up on her and just walk and walk and walk?
Gosh, this must be hard to deal with... I wish I had better advice. Have you seen a chiropractor?
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MY DECEMBER BABIES - Tony - 8 & Gabi - 5
My DS does the same exact thing! He is almost 4 and holds his poop for up to 2 weeks. I've done an enema on him before, but he screamed/cried/begged me to stop so I could never do that again. I even give him those big orange fiber chews every day w/water and he loves them...but they don't make him poop. When he's been holding it a loooong time, he eats very little because he says he has no room in his belly for food because it's full of poop! I've tried talking to him about how holding it makes it bigger and harder to get out and how when he has an urge to run to the potty, I've bribed him, massaged his stomach, read him the Everyone Poops book...everything I can think of. When I see him having an urge (he sits his butt on the floor and holds his knees and he turns red trying to hold it in) I try to pick him up and run to the toilet but he usually screams bloody murder & runs off! It is SO frustrating! I never thought he may have a physical problem, I always just thought he didn't want to interrupt his play by going to the toilet - but that can't be the reason because he does go pee in the toilet. After reading all these replies I *know* it's psychological (DH used to threaten him about it..ie. "You better not poop on yourself or else!")
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Jen ~ mama to 2 boys and a GIRL due this May!
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