Discussion in 'Spiritual Discussions' started by Sunflower_Momma, May 3, 2009.
quoting as a manner of subbing. i hope to come back to this.
I totally got that. I do think part of the problem is that Mennonites tend to vary a lot from conservative churches to the very modern interpretations of the church (which I had forgotten)... (notice I referred to it as a problem! LOL)
Original sin is a formulation by Saint Augustine, the major player in the Western, Roman understanding of the Christian faith.
The Eastern Rite Christianities do not follow the notion of original sin. This would be any of the Orthodox denominations, probably the Ethiopian (Coptic) church, the Syrian/Nestorian churches. They are still around, but they've been briskly massacred by all sorts of local governments, so they manage to be small. They travelled east, and did all sorts of interesting things, while officially anathema to Byzantine ( Orthodox) faith. And since Byzantine (Orthodox) is pretty much the summation of everything exotic to the West, anything beyond that is unimaginable. David Bentley Hart covers a lot of this.
The western non- believers in original sin were pretty much arm-wrestling with Augustine, to more or less good effect. That wrestling is why they tended to get kicked out of Europe. Not just that doctrine- the whole wrestling with standard theology.
Oh, the exoticism- think of any seductive bad guy in a movie or soap opera- even in kids' stuff- Basil in the Great Mouse Detective- usually the name is an eastern meditteranean name.
And yeah, I find my church exotic and uncomfortable. I'm doing it b/c my kids are comfortable, as is my spouse. I figure I'll grow into it. It'll just take twenty or thirty years. The "Of course"s drive me nuts. My "of courses" are very, very different. They are perfectly standard conservative Baptist, and since I am one of the only ones I know, I'm lonely, a lot.
I am so glad you are noticing what your "of courses" are.
The "One Baptism" referred disparagingly to the multiple baptisms of the gnostics. I want to say the guy who did "Gift of the Jews" "Desire of the Everlasting Hills" etc wrote about the creed.
I have never heard of the idea of being 'born into sin' aka original sin aka being birthed into a fallen world associated with the ideas of babies going to hell, or babies somehow being separated from God. I see those two things being associated in this thread, and have never heard of that before. As in, the concept of original sin meaning babies don't go to heaven. I don't believe that at all until the ability to chose comes into play, and even then, God's love and grace are his biggest character traits.
I agree. I don't think original sin prevents us from going to Heaven. I believe that everyone has original sin and that Heaven is for all of us.
I will respectfully disagree with this. Scripture speaks of our being born in sin and how the sin of Adam was spread to all mankind. Augustine was just reiterating a Scriptural doctrine.
I'm also going to respectfully disagree with this.
Do you feel that everyone goes to heaven? That sin does not separate us from God?
What is sin?
How does one get to heaven?
A typed in quote, from page 77 of The Story of Christianity" by David Bentley Hart.
"Similar problems of translation probably account for the significant differences between Eastern adnd Western understandings of original sin. All Christians believe that we are born in sin- that is, enslaved to death, suffering corruption in our bodies, minds and desires, alienated from God- but only in the West did the idea arise that a newborn infant is somehow already guilty of transgression in God's eyes. In part, this is because the Latin text of Romans 5:12 with which Augustine was familiar contained a mistranslation of the final clause of the verse, one that seemed to suggest that 'in' Adam 'all sinned' . The actual Greek text, however, says nothing of the sort; it says either that as a result of death all sinned, or that because sin is general in all things die; but it does not impute guilt to those who have net yet committed any evil."
Fascinating book. Much to think about and learn.
It's 250 pages, total, with lots of gorgeous pictures, and small side essays. Well, each chapter is a self- contained essay.
It has the best saint name, ever: "Saint Herman of Alaska."
Well, it's important to study the Scriptures back to the original language which in the New Testament is Greek. Trying to exegete the passage by going to the Latin is wrong since it was not written in Latin.
Here's a site that does a very thorough job of exegeting the passage going back to the original language. It's long but a good read.
Bible.org: Study and Exposition of Romans 5:12-21
Original sin? As far as I know Christians belief that we are the product of the original sin. Jesus died to save us. But we still need to repent. rayers:
I'd like to get in on the conversation about original sin but dd is crying.
I do wonder as well, if you don't believe in original sin, then why did Jesus come?
I believe that:
everyone goes to heaven.
sin is that which separates us from God.
God is more powerful than any sin or separation.
Heaven is the family home where we will live eternally.
We get to heaven because our creator calls us home. That is true of all God's people - even if they don't know it or accept it or live with that in mind. I believe in universal salvation.
That is beautiful Nancy.
How does universal salvation square with Matthew 25 and the separating of the sheep and the goats?
Why is your husband a priest? What is the purpose to work for the church if everyone will go to heaven?
Do you have any Scripture that says that everyone will go to heaven?
I haven't read the thread so this may have been mentioned, and I may be wrong, but I thought Jehovah's Witnesses didn't believe in it either.
Well, since we are going to talk about invisible friends....as a comedian put it......
There is a perfectly respectable theory, of long parentage, that the Divine fully intends to ransom all of creation into the Divine- Heaven. The notion of Hell is that hell is all that separates us from tD, and that Helll is mostly a comfort- a slight pocketing of existence, that makes a merciful shadow for the beings who do not willingly acknowledge their creator. Sort of a shadow under a tree, shielding the demonic from the Sun of creation, as their skin is burned off. And, as Hell is pretty much the horrors and selfishnesses and greeds and devourings in one's head- the demonic continues to make hell, well, hellish. This is considered a temporary state of being, and Jesus will eliminate both sin and death, fear and sorrow. To extend the Divine Life into all of creation, Jesus had to suffer, fear, sorrow, and die.
The church exists so that people may be born into, grow, and practice Divine love. It's fairly easy to declare allegiance to an invisible Creator. It's fairly difficult to practice Divine love, relations, forbearance, and forgiveness for real people. It's not to celebrate being on the boat, and others off in the crocodile infested waters. It's training wheels for Heaven.
Also, for various reasons, different people feel uncomfortable in the presence or service of the Divine. Any church, or intentional group, acts as the risen body of Christ- providing food, shelter, clothing, love, sincere friendship, listening, presence, acceptance. To insist that the person loved respond in a particular kind ( shape up, or else!) brings a degree of coercion that is completely not present in the Divine. So the really long, awkward, merciful acts of the church- collecting baby clothes, providing lunches for the homeless, sitting beside dying people's beds, caring for small children, telling the truth, teaching people to read, providing basements for AA services....these are the physical acts of God's Creation within creation. Or even the fairly simple " It is good to see you!" that one gets on the Sundays one goes to church. Or the notion that we, non- aristocrats, still deserve a day of rest and contemplation, a clothing set that looks as nice as possible, people who care that one exists....
This is the daily practice of the eternal.